Boeing E-3D Sentry AEW.1 (AWACS) (RAF)

[Aethulwulf]

Yes, Voyager KC2 have two drogues and are used for fast jet AAR. Voyager KC3 have three, with the central line used for large aircraft.

Not sure how many KC2 v KC3. I think it is 7 and 7.

[Lord Jim]

Aren't the KC3s all in the permanent force and the majority of the KC2s moonlighting in civilian jobs?

[Little J]

If we do upgrade how long would it take? KC.2's would require extra plumbing (would KC.3's use what they've got or would it need replacing?)

[Ron5]

Daily Telegraph:

Airbus fury over loss of RAF deal after Brexit warning

Alan Tovey, Industry Editor

14 July 2018 • 8:00pm

Airbus bosses are furious after the Government spurred them to publish a dire forecast of the impact of Brexit before handing a prize £2bn RAF contract to US rival Boeing without a competition.

The Telegraph has learnt that last month’s bombshell warning from Airbus that it could be forced to leave the UK came after discussions with senior Remainer ministers preparing for the Chequers summit.

Theresa May used the summit to impose on the Cabinet a vision of Brexit that would keep Britain in the single market for goods by maintaining close customs ties with Brussels, triggering a wave of Brexiteer resignations and claims from Donald Trump, the US 
president that the country was in “turmoil”.

Sources close to Airbus said the company decided to warn about the future of as many as 15,000 of its UK employees and 110,000 in its supply chain after discussions with the Government.

It is understood the ministers argued that industry should speak out on the highly contentious issue and aimed to create what insiders described as “room for manoeuvre” at Chequers.

The warning from Airbus allowed Mrs May and her officials to present to the Cabinet a more robust assessment of business disruption a hard or no-deal Brexit could cause and argue for Britain to make more concessions to the EU.

But having “got them out of trouble”, the source said Airbus is now furious with the ­Government.
"Airbus just wants wants to participate in a fair and open competition on the new aircraft"Alex Ashbourne-Walmsley, RUSI

It has emerged in defence circles that the Ministry of Defence has all but finalised a £2bn deal to buy E-7 “Wedgetail” early warning jets from its bitter rival Boeing. The aircraft will take over from the RAF’s fleet of worn-out E-3 “Sentry” jets, which were also built by the US company.

Airbus and other aerospace companies have been lobbying for the contract to be awarded on the basis of open bidding, rather than handed to Boeing.

The prospect of no competition and “buying off the shelf” from Boeing, which is unlikely to involve UK companies in the contract, has left Airbus “incandescent”, sources said.

Alex Ashbourne-Walmsley of defence think-tank RUSI said: “I’m surprised that the British Government could behave in such a cavalier fashion towards Airbus when the company helped them apply pressure on Brexiteers and now in return it faces issuing humiliated.

“Airbus just wants wants to participate in a fair and open competition on the new aircraft. Instead Government is giving Airbus’s arch-rival Boeing a free run at this contract.”

MPs on the defence select committee also want a competition run on new early warning radar jets. Julian Lewis, its chairman, wrote to the Government saying it would be “particularly inappropriate” to buy from Boeing without an open tender following the US ­company’s demands for tariffs on Bombardier.

Defence experts say buying from Boeing would minimise risk as the E-7 is already in service – unlike rival products – and the RAF already has familiarity with Boeing systems.

Industry sources said the Government aimed to announce the deal in the run-up to this week’s Farnborough air show. However, political infighting and a major review of UK defence needs and spending have delayed it.

Airbus declined to comment. Boeing said it “welcomed opportunities to work with the Government and UK industry partners to provide critical surveillance aircraft to the UK”.

An MoD spokesman said: “Any decision on the way forward for the Sentry capability will be taken in the best interests of national security in the face of intensifying threats, and only after full consideration.

“We tender contracts competitively wherever appropriate. It is too early to comment further at this time.”

[Little J]

If they quickly did a rfi for "military off the shelf" jet awacs, airbus would probably moan about that too. Seems very much like Boeing with the 737 vs Cseries punch-up, they don't have a direct competitor and are trying to bully their way to a sale.

[Timmymagic]

f they quickly did a rfi for "military off the shelf" jet awacs, airbus would probably moan about that too. Seems very much like Boeing with the 737 vs Cseries punch-up, they don't have a direct competitor and are trying to bully their way to a sale.

Doesn't even have to be in service, just set the procurement up for a delivery date which is unachievable unless its already built, or a demo phase of a full capability but make it clear that any product has to be fully funded by the competitors, no money from the MoD will be forthcoming. That would smoke them out very easily.

I have little sympathy for Airbus on this. It was obvious 15 years ago that a European MPA to replace all the Nimrod, P-3, Atlantiques etc would have a chance. They did nothing. It was obvious 15 years ago that large numbers of ISTAR platforms would need replacement in due course, they did nothing...A multi-mission A319 base would have been staring down the barrel of 150+ sales...When they did something about AAR they ended up with a winner on their hands in the form of the A330 MRTT. The less said about the time wasted on A400 the better...

[Dahedd]

Surely all bluff & bluster (aimed at folk who don't know better) on the part of Airbus given that they don't have an AEW system of their own to offer in competition?

[Timmymagic]

Surely all bluff & bluster (aimed at folk who don't know better) on the part of Airbus given that they don't have an AEW system of their own to offer in competition?

Plus they seem to be pissed off after going in to bat for May at Chequers. Seems like they assumed there was some quid pro quo...

[ArmChairCivvy]

Seems like they assumed there was some quid pro quo...

With this Gvmnt? They deal in shirt buttons (both 1.0 and 2.0; Cameron and May, respectively)
- Cameron did some cosmetic renegotiation (and got nothing; but in the end the whole referendum, for him, was to put the in-house coup d'etat to rest within the Conservative party)
- may be he tried to copy Wilson... who at least got reassurance for Anchor butter continueing to come in, at an advantageous price

In the MP circles another nod to Boeing (sole sourced, again) will not be popular. The irony is that Airbus was the White Knight who rescued everyone (Boeing included) from the trouble... but only for now.
- it remains to be seen how much of the work will remain in NI as the plant making the planes will now be within the US
- Boeing having outplayed their remedies, and can do nothing further now. But may have hurt their military business in more than one country, going forward.

[Timmymagic]

- Boeing having outplayed their remedies, and can do nothing further now. But may have hurt their military business in more than one country, going forward.

With Wedgetail and Poseidon they have working, selling product. Airbus do not. Where Airbus have a product (A330 MRTT) they're cleaning up. If only they (and BAE) had gone down the A319 route....no Nimrod MRA.4 fiasco and a possibility of AWACS and ISTAR variants. In 20 years time we'll be wondering how they could have got it so wrong. An absolute open goal.

[ArmChairCivvy]

If only they (and BAE) had gone down the A319 route....no Nimrod MRA.4 fiasco and a possibility of AWACS and ISTAR variants.

Agreed. Of course we have the Sentries as there have been TWO Nimrod fiascos, also an AEW one.

[serge750]

Yeh could of been so good for Airbus if they had pushed to replace mpa Nimrod ( & the uk gov played ball !!! ) a bit more, then add a few more possible European customers, I thought being a European made product Germany & France etc would of supported a mpa,aew & other variants for the long running success of the European concern & played the long game...

[Timmymagic]

Yeh could of been so good for Airbus if they had pushed to replace mpa Nimrod ( & the uk gov played ball !!! )

It wasn't the UK government. It was BAE and Airbus playing nicely. At the time BAE had just divested itself of its 20% holding in Airbus (something the government should never have allowed it to do, we could pay for that mistake in the future) and as a result was looking to keep all of the work in house. Nimrod 2000 (which became MRA.4) allowed them to have practically all of the pie. All it would have taken was for someone in the MoD to insist on an exportable product for UK plc (and to actually speak to anyone who had ever maintained Nimrod) and BAE and Airbus could have been forced to work together. If they had we'd have 21 A319 MPA in service right now, France and Germany would be buying it, probably along with Norway. And it would have been a good basis for ISTAR and AWACS. We may have not have had to buy Rivet Joint either...maybe even Sentinel (timeline isn't right on that though).

[Lord Jim]

I cannot see the UK paying the development costs of an AWACS based on a Airbus airframe. If Airbus wish to develop one in record time and have a prototype flying before any completion takes place then they are welcome to make a bid for the contract. That is of course assuming there will be a competition. If one takes place with Wedgetail as the benchmark, I cannot see many true alternatives that are not based on business jets, and I am not sure these would be the right platform for what the RAF needs.

[shark bait]

The only groups an Airbus AEW would really benefit (beyond airbus themselves) is the French and German air forces who will have a new European AEW aircraft the Brits have paid to derisk.

It would have been great if Europe/Airbus had got its arse in gear a decade ago and build a common MPA and AEW, but they didn't, whereas Boeing have pretty much achieved that.

[Timmymagic]

ew European AEW aircraft the Brits have paid to derisk.

There wouldn't be a market for it in Europe right now either. The French have continued to keep their E-3's up to spec, so won't be looking for a replacement until 2035 minimum, the Italians have some Israeli Gulfstreams as part of a deal on M346 for the IAF. The Germans don't operate AWACS, instead relying on the NATO fleet (and thats primarily funded by the US, so no chance of Airbus there). In short, unless they'd started it 10-15 years ago its a complete non-starter with bugger all export potential. It would have worked in a A319/320 military variant that could be utlised as a base for MPA, ISTAR and AWACS. But that ship has long since sailed.

[Ianmb17]

RIAT2018

[SKB]

That ought to annoy Airbus.
Good job!

[Ron5]

ew European AEW aircraft the Brits have paid to derisk.

There wouldn't be a market for it in Europe right now either. The French have continued to keep their E-3's up to spec, so won't be looking for a replacement until 2035 minimum, the Italians have some Israeli Gulfstreams as part of a deal on M346 for the IAF. The Germans don't operate AWACS, instead relying on the NATO fleet (and thats primarily funded by the US, so no chance of Airbus there). In short, unless they'd started it 10-15 years ago its a complete non-starter with bugger all export potential. It would have worked in a A319/320 military variant that could be utlised as a base for MPA, ISTAR and AWACS. But that ship has long since sailed.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... fo-450258/

[Timmymagic]

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... fo-450258/

I don't doubt it, but I've been reading about prospective A320 MPA/Multi mission aircraft from Airbus for nigh on 20 years now. They just never seem to materialise. If ti does turn up a huge chunk of the marketplace has already gone and procured or will have by then.

[Ron5]

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... fo-450258/

I don't doubt it, but I've been reading about prospective A320 MPA/Multi mission aircraft from Airbus for nigh on 20 years now. They just never seem to materialise. If ti does turn up a huge chunk of the marketplace has already gone and procured or will have by then.

Bae wanted to build an Airbus based MPA instead of Nimrod MRA4. Said they would be able to export a bunch. Numbnuts in the MoD insisted on a Nimrod because an upgrade rather than a new aircraft would be more sellable to the politicos.

[seaspear]

Work on the tendering started in the late nineties for Wedgetail before the aircraft was chosen from other tenderers
Airbus should of thought of the business case for developing ten years ago an aircraft that could rival it

[Timmymagic]

insisted on a Nimrod because an upgrade rather than a new aircraft would be more sellable to the politicos.

The story I was told was that following the BAE sale of their stake in Airbus they wanted all of the pie for themselves, rather than becoming a prime and sharing some with Airbus (both re-builds and new build A320 were discussed at one point). There was (incredibly) even talk by BAE of construction of new-build Nimrod for export before upgrading became the goal....

[Little J]

There was (incredibly) even talk by BAE of construction of new-build Nimrod for export before upgrading became the goal....

There was paper talk of selling to the septics (before p-8), but as they couldn't even get the new wings right could you imagine what a cluster fudge they'd have made of it.

[indeid]

I think the truth is likely in the middle. I remember lots of very entrenched opinions on all sides asking if a modern civilian platform could ever be used as a MPA and survive the rigours of the mission. Ironic considering what we will end up with but there you go.

I was fairly (very) fresh faced when this was being talked about but everyone seemed to think it was the right answer at the time. I certainly don't remember strong dissenting voices, although this was at least 10 years before Twitter so the real experts were no doubt not consulted......

When people in uniform or with industry have worked on one system their whole career it can be very hard to get those people to look beyond that answer. Who knows, in 20 years time my support for a E7 OTS buy might be considered daft compared to other options!