F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

[indeid]

How would the UK get targeting information for long range land attack?

Generous friends

[shark bait]

How would the UK get targeting information for long range land attack?

UK is finally getting around to closing that gap, starting to get intelligence satellites now, and pseudo satellites are in the work.

I assume P8 must have some signals intelligence capabilities, able to find a hostile platform at stand off range.

It's definitely not the answer to everything.

There is no reason it FG/ASW be, France want to replace their air, ship, and submarine launched version of storm shadow.

What happens up until that point is less clear, with no elegant solution.

[RetroSicotte]

Again, unless FG/ASW can reach out to almost 2,000km with all of TLAMs tactical land attack ability, then I have my concerns for the submarine version. Especially given no concrete call for that on the UK side. Reducing equivalent capability just to match the less ambitious French aim is a bad idea. Tomahawk is a nationally significant reach and it appears very easy to lose that even post FG/ASW.

And I also have a knowing suspicion about the SCALP Naval replacement via FG/ASW in general, there's a very easily exploitable hole there to play politics and remain the only 'top dog' through funding timescales.

[shark bait]

Why would a modern European missile be any less capable than an old American one?

[indeid]

UK is finally getting around to closing that gap, starting to get intelligence satellites now, and pseudo satellites are in the work.

I assume P8 must have some signals intelligence capabilities, able to find a hostile platform at stand off range.

One technology demonstrator has gone up which is owned and run by one private company, and is acting as a risk reduction measure for a future commercial constellation by another, Earth-i.

It is great that the MOD are looking to a space capability and hopefully buying into this will show what is needed to finally get a sovereign military capability in space. Don't forget the spacecraft are only part of what will be needed. We have been round this buoy before with TopSat, but then the money needs to be found.

A first but hopeful step though?

[RetroSicotte]

Why would a modern European missile be any less capable than an old American one?

SCALP Naval is more modern than Tomahawk and it is less capable in terms of range.

Europe has never produced a submarine or ship launched land attack missile with that sort of range.

[shark bait]

The French built a smaller missile with 200kg less fuel, so no surprise, it doesn't fly as far. The solution is not difficult. Little difference in technology between the two.

[RetroSicotte]

The French built a smaller missile with 200kg less fuel, so no surprise, it doesn't fly as far. The solution is not difficult. Little difference in technology between the two.

Bear in mind that Sylver A70s only JUST fit a tomahawk (in fact it may not even be within recommended parameters, and has never been integrated). So it's not a given that a missile also designed to be a heavy warhead ASM will be able to utilise the same combination of range fuel/boost and ASM warhead potential. IT's asking a lot of a smaller silo, and its A70 it has to be designed for, or the French won't go for it.

Especially as their submarines are designed for SCALP Naval size weapons, not Tomahawks. Barracudas are not large subs like Astute is.

There are a lot of reasons to highly suspect that FG/ASW won't even come close to a Tomahawk's range. For one its not its real aim. It's a Storm Shadow replacement, and even the SCALP Naval is just over 1,000km. So long as it exceeds that, the French are happy. They won't push for much more.

The point is that the MoD is very VERY likely to just not even bother replacing Tomahawk with something of its own class. And then suddenly we'll have subs with only torpedos and jack all else.

The FG/ASW is the ideal long term solution for the F-35, for the ASM situation and to give Type 26's land attack as well, but focusing too much on it is an error, as it almost certainly won't replace everything in the UK's inventory with it.

Anyhow, I think we've both pretty much said the piece on the extended FG/ASW thing, I can't think of much else to really add, it's a lot of words but I guess all I mean is "don't stake all hope". Maaaybe we oughta get back to F-35 from here.

[Ron5]

I assume P8 must have some signals intelligence capabilities, able to find a hostile platform at stand off range.

Flown off the carriers?

[SKB]

^ A British F-35B recently arrived in the UK as part of the RAF 100 Centenary celebrations.

[Smokey]

The footage seems to be from last year (RIAT, RAF Fairford)?

Which F35B recently arrived in the U.K.?

[shark bait]

Flown off the carriers?

Same for Voyager and E3. UK inst going to have a proper organic carrier capability for a long while.

[Ron5]

The US doesn't rely on carriers for Tomahawk targeting, why should the UK?

[shark bait]

The UK wouldn't, relying on the USA instead!

[Smokey]

Working up on simulators to flight testing of F35B from QEC

http://www.janes.com/article/79039/rn-c ... 35b-trials

[Timmymagic]

The French built a smaller missile with 200kg less fuel, so no surprise, it doesn't fly as far. The solution is not difficult. Little difference in technology between the two.

I've said it before but I just don't buy the quoted range figures for Storm Shadow/Scalp. It is as good as exactly the same size as Tomahawk with a more modern engine, lifting body so has greater lift and flies a similar attack profile. The warhead is also exactly the same size. But the published range figures are a third of Tomahawk...

I suspect that Storm Shadow/Scalp has pretty much the same range...we're just not being told....

[shark bait]

Exactly.

I was told the quoted figures are for the export version, there are some controls on larger missiles, so this is how UK and France bypass the controls. (I never fact checked this)

[topman]

Working up on simulators to flight testing of F35B from QEC

http://www.janes.com/article/79039/rn-c ... 35b-trials

I wonder how the sims on board are progressing?

[Ron5]

Unsubtle change of subject.

[topman]

It wasn't meant to be subtle.

[Timmymagic]

ypass the controls. (I never fact checked this)

The UAE's Black Shaheen. Definitely covered by MTCR. Realistically I can't understand the sensitivity around the subject. We know that we'll never know the exact range, but the Russians aren't thick...they've done the calculations, they'll know to within a 100km or so what the range is.

[Ron5]

The Russians arn't the only targets are they. More likely to be shot at terrorists resting safely (they hope) by their camp fires in the middle of nowherestan.

[Timmymagic]

The Russians arn't the only targets are they. More likely to be shot at terrorists resting safely (they hope) by their camp fires in the middle of nowherestan.

Perfectly happy with that, as long as we're using some of the stockpile that were being mothballed (900 bought was probably a little overboard, think the French have taken their stockpile of SCALP down to 100...)

[indeid]

The Russians arn't the only targets are they. More likely to be shot at terrorists resting safely (they hope) by their camp fires in the middle of nowherestan.

If they are resting safely underground in bunkers then absolutely, crack on. Out in the open, not so much, unless you can't afford to maintain them I suppose.

[Ron5]

According to my handy Terrorist to English dictionary, they use the term "caves".