F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Lord Jim wrote:I was thinking more along the lines of the F-82 Twin Mustang with two F-35s joined together by a wing/extended weapons bay :angel:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Ame ... in_Mustang
TwinMustang did what we Brits singularly failed with, in an earlier attempt. N:o1 on this list (the last entry)
https://hushkit.net/2016/03/02/the-ten- ... -aircraft/

To try it twice... hmmn. Could be tempting "their" luck
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If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

sunstersun
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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

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https://www.reuters.com/article/us-japa ... SKCN1G507W

Not directly UK related, but glad to see that there is future growth potential beyond the original orders.

Still waiting on that F-35B order.

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by dmereifield »

sunstersun wrote:https://www.reuters.com/article/us-japa ... SKCN1G507W

Not directly UK related, but glad to see that there is future growth potential beyond the original orders.

Still waiting on that F-35B order.
Nice for the UK aerospace industry, and like you say, we still have potential for Japanese F35Bs, South Korean F35Bs, Belgian F35As and German F35As (likely missing some others too?) which would total another 120-150 airframes. Even better of course if Belgium and Germany go for Typhoons

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by sunstersun »

How much does UK produce if they don't assemble the Typhoon?

25%?

30%? They do get the engines which is pretty big.

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shark bait
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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by shark bait »

What do you mean 'they get the engines'?

The engines are like the aircraft, components made all over the place, and there are 2 final assembly lines in Bristol and Munich I believe.
@LandSharkUK

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

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dmereifield wrote:German F35As (likely missing some others too?)
Luftwaffe expressed that preference, but the Parliamentary process soon ran over them (like a steam roller :) )
- not quite how it works here, with the Defence Committee being more like a watch dog (barks, but no bite)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by Pymes75 »

Out of interest, according to an article in Airforces Intelligence, 617 Squadron will formally 'stand up' at Beaufort AFB on 17th April 2018 and will transport 9x F-35Bs back to Marham in two waves (supported by a Voyager) during June and July.

Exciting times ahead....

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by serge750 »

Just in time for Farnborough airshow?? saw the American f35b in2016 but british ones would be better....he he

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

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serge750 wrote:Just in time for Farnborough airshow?? saw the American f35b in2016 but british ones would be better....he he
I'm not aware of anything being confirmed - but we can hope...

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by serge750 »

I'll be surprised if they don't as it Would be Great publicity for the RAF for their 100 year celebration !!! :clap: Be even better if one of them had Royal Navy on the tail ;)

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

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That one would be for the RNAS Yeovilton Open Day :clap:

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

It is the RAF's 100 year anniversary, not the FAA's, that is a good few years off.

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

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A Royal Navy Aircraft?

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

If we use the F-35Cs to celebrate the RAF's 100 year anniversary, then it is the RAF that need to be celebrated with one plane in over the top RAF markings and colour scheme and ideally one in full 617 squadron display colours.

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Not just about the "B" but the best picks from three "generations" of JSF Prgrm leads, over 7 yrs, about client/ supplier interactions and the programme design:
https://breakingdefense.com/2018/02/loc ... i=61034918
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

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The new 5th generation F-35 has been in R&D for ~ 20 years, systems now old generation, having to be replaced by new tech.

Lockheed has awarded contract to Raytheon to replace the incumbent Northrop Grumannn AN/AAQ-37 old EO-DAS, a 360 degree, spherical situational awareness system that provides Missile detection and tracking; Launch point detection; Situational awareness IRST & cueing; Weapons support; Day/night navigation.

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by seaspear »

Apparently last week at Paxtulent testing grounds the f35b fired for the first time its gau gun, this may be an option for other users of the f35b .

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by RetroSicotte »

seaspear wrote:Apparently last week at Paxtulent testing grounds the f35b fired for the first time its gau gun, this may be an option for other users of the f35b .
It's fired a lot more than just last week. There's been reports on the comparisons between tests of the internal gun and pod gun for a while out there.

The pod did better, funnily enough.

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

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Operational testing continues with the F-35B as a Marine squadron deploys in the East China Sea on the LHD-1 Wasp for the first ever shipboard deployment, part of the 31st Marine Expeditionary Unit "The F-35B is a game-changer for the Marine Corps," Lt. Col. Richard Rusnok, VMFA-121 commanding officer said in a statement March 5. What is not stated is whether or not it will include the required intermediate level maintenance capabilities, ALIS, which provide a level of support between the squadron and the depots so that repairs can be done at sea.

The billion $s software Autonomic Logistics Information System, ALIS, is a "system-of-systems" that connects maintenance, supply chain and sustainment information into a single management tool, the fleet management backbone for the F-35 and to plan and debrief missions. ALIS turns maintenance data into actionable information that enables pilots, maintainers and keep jets flying.

Info:
Lockheed Martin owns 100 percent of F-35 sustainment including data rights.
" for the first ever shipboard deployment March 2018"
Marines claimed F-35B Blk 2B IOC after deployment on Wasp July 2015, which a DOT&E report showed was wildly optimistic.

https://insidedefense.com/insider/f-35b ... =hootsuite

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

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NickC wrote:Operational testing continues with the F-35B as a Marine squadron deploys in the East China Sea on the LHD-1 Wasp for the first ever shipboard deployment, part of the 31st Marine Expeditionary Unit "The F-35B is a game-changer for the Marine Corps,"
NickC wrote:Marines claimed F-35B Blk 2B IOC after deployment on Wasp July 2015, which a DOT&E report showed was wildly optimistic.
Well, some people in the backwoods have had an extra 2 and a half years*) to cling onto their F35 Cargo Cult in which they daily read the LM press announcements and then go Halle-luu-Jah!.

No amount of quoting from other sources can ever turn their heads... but then again it is normally about folks that are techno-freaks to begin with, know nothing at all about real defence/ capability issues and have just converted over from their teenage-years Porsche addiction.
- luckily, around here, we lost those years ago (or :) may be they reconverted, away from their acquired Cargo Cult beliefs)

-------------
*) had the F-35B been cancelled/ continued on probation/ been put to the back of the queue... THEN the USMC ship building prgrm would, today, look very different from the one that is now continuing to progress
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by R686 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
-------------
*) had the F-35B been cancelled/ continued on probation/ been put to the back of the queue... THEN the USMC ship building prgrm would, today, look very different from the one that is now continuing to progress
Disagree, the gator navy overall would still look the same only difference I imagine if the "B" fell over the US would have looked at AV-8 Harrier III, the gator navy primary focus is rotary ops fast jets are just a bonus.

Worst case for USMC was either put an SCB 127 type conversion and using modified Hawk 200's or AV-10X Bronco for CAS

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

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R686 wrote: if the "B" fell over the US would have looked at AV-8 Harrier III
Tell me more as when the "B" was on probation, I did not spot any mentions of such an option?
R686 wrote: modified Hawk 200's or AV-10X Bronco for CAS
Equally, how did the flight trials on the America Class go?

USAF was very articulate about the reasons why it took them a year longer than the Marines to get to IOC (and through the associated testing).
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

As an aside (excursion to shipping, this time to RN's):
- officially the panic about potentially not getting any "Bs" at all cost us only £57m in cash terms (spent, but did not come to be used)
- when you look at what the repeated U-turns on the CVF design and the associated delays cost, one could assess a higher figure
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

The OV-10 Broncos san operate form the America's, they even operated form the old Jima class. Do they have any OV-10s in the reserves still?

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

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F-35 News Washington, hearings by Congress

USN unable to integrate F-35s Autonomic Logistics Information System (ALIS) with the Navy’s systems as Lockheed own the IPR, Navy limited access/rights the coding and to the data coming out of ALIS. [LOL]

The Joint Program Office (JPO) estimates that continued development of the F-35 to deal with evolving threats and changing warfighting environments will cost the U.S. government more than $1 billion a year between 2018 and 2024. 

In total, JPO estimates that continuous capability development and delivery (C2D2) of the F-35 will cost $16.4 billion over that seven-year time period, with some $11 billion going toward development and $5.4 billion toward procurement. 

Vice Admiral Winter, who leads JPO, said development costs will be shared with U.S. allies, leaving the Department of Defense on the hook for $7.2 billion. 

U.S. Rep. Nicola Tsongas said she requested the estimate from JPO after not being able to pin down an official baseline cost for the program.
 
The nearly $16 billion figure represented the outer limit of the modernization costs to bring all of the jets to their maximum potential currently known as “Block 4,” Winter told reporters after the hearing. 

International customers were estimated to be responsible for $3.7 billion [UK ~ 20%? = ~£500 million] of the $10.8 billion software development costs, with the United States shouldering the rest, spending about $1 billion per year over the seven-year plan, Winter said.

“We understand that the F-35 program needs to reduce F-35 operations and supports costs by about one-third to meet service budget goals for affordability,” said Rep. Mike Turner (R-Ohio) on Wednesday. 

“Why is the F-35 so expensive to keep flying?” asked Sen. Angus King (I-Maine). 

A lot of the parts of that aircraft are very expensive. If there a component fails or parts need replacing, the Pentagon has to go to the manufacturer to create new parts. Funding for a components and parts replacement program was included in the pending FY2019 budget, said Vice Adm. Paul Grosklags, the Navy’s commander of Naval Air Systems Command. 

In a few situations, a part could be covered by a warranty, but Grosklags said for the most part, the Pentagon’s ability to negotiate warranties is limited by congressional language dating back several years. [LOL]

Rep. Niki Tsongas, D-Mass., a ranking member of the subpanel, is the development of new, related software technology that could lead to more financial headaches. 

“The F35 program has come a long way,” Tsongas said. However, “the last 17 years of F-35 software development have seen dramatic cost increase and delays. How this new effort will somehow defy this unfortunate history remains an open question.”

The bulk of the Air Force’s F-35A fleet is on an older software suite and is mission capable less than half the time, as the service works to catch up on its maintenance and sustainment, a senior USAF official told Congress Wednesday. 

Out of the Air Force’s 130 total F-35As, 100 are on the older Block 2B software suite and have a mission capable rate in the “low 40” percent, Lt. Gen. Jerry Harris, the deputy chief of staff for strategic plans, programs, and requirements said at a House Armed Services Tactical Air and Land subcommittee hearing. The rest are in the upgraded Block 3I and 3F software suites, with these running a mission capable rate in the “60 to 70” percentage range, Harris said. 

At the same time, the Air Force is still facing issues with the F-35’s ALIS. The Air Force knew at the outset of the program that ALIS would have shortfalls and would need to be upgraded, but these upgrades are proving to be “longer and more manpower intense” than expected, Harris said. 

The Air Force is in the middle of an in-depth study of ALIS and its shortfalls, which should be completed by the end of the year, he said. 

The service was also late in standing up depots for the F-35, which in turn has led to slowdowns and issues in fixing jets and refurbishing parts, at times going back to the manufacturer to make new parts, Harris said. 

All of this has not only limited the mission capability rate of the F-35A fleet, but also has led to a hefty price tag. F-35As currently cost about $50,000 per flight hour, varied by which software suite and if the jet is operational or in a training location.

From <http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... blems.html>

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