Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

For everything else UK defence-related that doesn't fit into any of the sections above.

Should the UK buy the Osprey? (Leave a comment why below too!)

Yes
47
47%
No
25
25%
Not now
24
24%
Undecided
5
5%
 
Total votes: 101

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

RichardIC wrote:The real value of carrier borne AAR isn’t to add range to strike packages. It’s to give valuable extra time in the air to aircraft returning low on fuel that aren’t able to land immediately. Small sips
Small 'sips' actually applies to both: get the strike package (err, we don't have any with the types and numbers of a/c available off our carriers) airborne, in sequence, and then they are all off - with the tank full even on the ones that went off first.
R686 wrote:Osprey will most likly be developed by the USMC as an aircraft that do AAR and refuel ground FARP's if things are too tight for a KC-130J
- they will do both; can AAR but re-arming while up in the air is a tad :) more demanding
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

indeid
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Re: Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

Post by indeid »

ArmChairCivvy wrote: Small 'sips' actually applies to both: get the strike package (err, we don't have any with the types and numbers of a/c available off our carriers) airborne, in sequence, and then they are all off - with the tank full even on the ones that went off first.
Not an easy task unless you have a lot of hoses, someone is always waiting around, usually, and unhelpfully, whinging about it while another receiver is trying to hook up.

Be interesting how efficient tanking a F35 is at the height/speed the Osprey would need to be at. Might find you are tipping a fair amount of what you are taking in at the front out the back just to keep station.

I’m a firm believer in the ‘only time you can have too much fuel is when you are on fire’ mentality, and would like to see some airborne fuel for recovery cycles, but I just can’t see where the money would come from. I bet someone has calculated a balance of investment on how many F35s you could lose on recovery before you’ve ‘made’ your money back on the Ospreys......

R686
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Re: Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

Post by R686 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
R686 wrote:Osprey will most likly be developed by the USMC as an aircraft that do AAR and refuel ground FARP's if things are too tight for a KC-130J
- they will do both; can AAR but re-arming while up in the air is a tad :) more demanding
:thumbup: I gets you drift but for Osprey its not always possabile for the aircraft to pump fuel on the ground, it all depends on how it's plumbed up and with the engine in feather mode to operate pumps.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military ... -1/ch7.pdf

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

R686 wrote:https://www.globalsecurity.org/military ... -1/ch7.pdf
A good find! The missions per day (estimated) for USMC B's looks totally different from carrier-based ones (be they US or RN), and the reason is obvious:
"The objective of a FARP is to minimize response time and decrease
turnaround time in support of sustained operations. Minimizing flight
time to and from the FARP and reducing the refueling and rearming
time within the FARP achieves this objective. Fueling and arming of
assault support aircraft can be accomplished in about 20 to 30 minutes,
while processing an attack aircraft may take up to 45 to 50 minutes. In
both instances, fueling takes 10 to 15 minutes and ordnance uploading
takes up the rest of the time. The overriding factor in estimating FARP
processing time revolves around the ordnance requirements."

Since this one (see date) I have seen the notice for the kind of kit you describe, but whether it was for dvlmnt or proc... can't remember:
"May 2/16: A USMC MV-22 Osprey has given a successful ground refueling of a Marine F-35B Joint Strike Fighter. The one-hour test consisted of hooking up fuel transfer lines between the two aircraft with the MV-22 fueling the F-35B with an aerial refueling to follow. Both aircraft will be used to allow the Marine Corps to employ assets in austere environments on short notice without having to rely on long-term planning and fixed facilities."
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

NickC
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Re: Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

Post by NickC »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:"May 2/16: A USMC MV-22 Osprey has given a successful ground refueling of a Marine F-35B Joint Strike Fighter. The one-hour test consisted of hooking up fuel transfer lines between the two aircraft with the MV-22 fueling the F-35B with an aerial refueling to follow. Both aircraft will be used to allow the Marine Corps to employ assets in austere environments on short notice without having to rely on long-term planning and fixed facilities."
Think the US Marines live in a fantasy world of their own if think you can operate F-35B/Osprey in austere environment.

The Marines have had to install custom concrete bases to take the extreme heat of the Osprey vertically mounted turbo-shaft jets for repeated take off and landing at their bases.

F-35B, Aviation Week “… the Pentagon bought the F-35B for two reasons: it can land on an LHA/LHD-class amphibious warfare ship, and it can operate from an improvised forward operating location (FOL), created around a 3,000-ft. runway.”// “The main engine exhaust, the engineers said, was hot and energetic enough to have a 50% chance of spalling concrete on the first VL [vertical landing]. “Spalling” occurs when water in the concrete boils faster than it can escape, and steam blows flakes away from the surface.”// “And what Navfac calls “standard airfield concrete” is military-grade, made with aggregate and Portland cement. Many runways are built with asphaltic concrete—aggregate in a bitumen binder—which softens and melts under heat.”

“At the Navy’s Patuxent River, Md., flight-test center, F-35Bs perform VLs on a pad of AM-2 aluminum matting, protecting the concrete from heat and blast.” // “The Marines could use AM-2 landing pads. But AM-2 is not a friend to the agility that justifies the F-35B over other forms of expeditionary airpower. An Air Force study calls it “slow to install, difficult to repair, [with] very poor air-transport-ability characteristics.” A single 100 X 100-ft. VL pad weighs around 30 tons and comprises 400 pieces, each individually installed by two people.”

The internal fuel load of an F-35B is ~ 6.5 tons. A squadron of 10 aircraft would need 650 tons to conduct a 100 sorties a week. How do Marines get sufficient fuel, munitions, spares, technicians, computers, mission planners, food & water to a dozen+ Marine austere bases.

PS RAF Marham airfield was updated to take the F-35Bs, interesting to note it 'only' cost £500 million.

topman
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Re: Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

Post by topman »

I remain skeptical that they worth it for the UK. I know that one was used in the FI in 82, nevertheless they remain very much a niche capability. The US will no doubt put something together for the odd mission, something akin to the Iranian hostage rescue attempt.
For us I don't see it being worth it, the longer you do it and the more expensive the aircraft the harder it becomes. You need far more kit and people than alot of these links and videos show. There's all sorts of issues to overcome.
They are rarely used for FJ for good reason. If you really want to do that sort of thing, buy a cheap turboprop.

R686
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Re: Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

Post by R686 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
R686 wrote:https://www.globalsecurity.org/military ... -1/ch7.pdf
A good find! The missions per day (estimated) for USMC B's looks totally different from carrier-based ones (be they US or RN), and the reason is obvious:
"The objective of a FARP is to minimize response time and decrease
turnaround time in support of sustained operations. Minimizing flight
time to and from the FARP and reducing the refueling and rearming
time within the FARP achieves this objective. Fueling and arming of
assault support aircraft can be accomplished in about 20 to 30 minutes,
while processing an attack aircraft may take up to 45 to 50 minutes. In
both instances, fueling takes 10 to 15 minutes and ordnance uploading
takes up the rest of the time. The overriding factor in estimating FARP
processing time revolves around the ordnance requirements."

Since this one (see date) I have seen the notice for the kind of kit you describe, but whether it was for dvlmnt or proc... can't remember:
"May 2/16: A USMC MV-22 Osprey has given a successful ground refueling of a Marine F-35B Joint Strike Fighter. The one-hour test consisted of hooking up fuel transfer lines between the two aircraft with the MV-22 fueling the F-35B with an aerial refueling to follow. Both aircraft will be used to allow the Marine Corps to employ assets in austere environments on short notice without having to rely on long-term planning and fixed facilities."

Ah good wasn't 100% sure if Osprey could do it whilst on the ground. I know KC-130 can and was supposed to be able to be acheived with A400M, with all the problems with the A400M don't know what the status of that is.

sunstersun
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Re: Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

Post by sunstersun »

Not worth it at all for the limited navy budget. We still don’t know if 138 f-35s are ordered.

Lord Jim
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Re: Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

Post by Lord Jim »

It will be interesting to find out how many of the skills the RAF had for operating the Harrier in the field are still around?

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SKB
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Re: Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

Post by SKB »


Image
^ Also posted in F35B thread

RunningStrong
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Re: Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

Post by RunningStrong »

I've no experience of A2A refuelling, but isn't it quite interesting that both the aircraft seem to be in a low-airspeed configuration?

benny14
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Re: Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

Post by benny14 »

RunningStrong wrote:I've no experience of A2A refuelling, but isn't it quite interesting that both the aircraft seem to be in a low-airspeed configuration?
Someone mentioned that it is a fake photoshop.

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SKB
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Re: Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey

Post by SKB »


(bobsurgranny) 19 April 2019
The Osprey seen here returning to RAF Mildenhall in complete darkness, notice the green formation lights on the tips of the blades at night, when they spin they create a virtual disk in the sky, cool thing to catch on camera

(bobsurgranny) 20 April 2019
Spent a week at RAF Mildenhall and caught plenty of Osprey action on camera

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

May 2/16: A USMC MV-22 Osprey has given a successful ground refueling of a Marine F-35B Joint Strike Fighter. The one-hour test consisted of hooking up fuel transfer lines between the two aircraft with the MV-22 fueling the F-35B with an aerial refueling to follow.
I would find it strange (assertation further above) if a UK
Air Marshal (Julian Young) @Chf_Eng_Air fell for a fake photoshop.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Lord Jim
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Re: Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey

Post by Lord Jim »

I hope he hasn't sent a memo around DE&S asking for a presentation on the capability to support the UK's F-35 fleet based on the above :D

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SKB
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Re: Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

Post by SKB »


Image

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Tempest414
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Re: Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

Post by Tempest414 »

For me the question of should we buy V-22 goes hand in hand with do we go with FLSS if yes then we should buy V-22 as we will be able to deploy the RM further faster from both the Carriers and FLSS

Jdam
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Re: Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

Post by Jdam »

I like the MV-22, its got a lot of versatility but if we were to buy it that would introduce a new supply chain, training and other infrastructure requirements that would cost money. Given the limited amount of helicopter we currently have I think it investing more in models we already might be a better idea reducing other costs and hopefully increasing numbers we could buy.

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