F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

[whitelancer]

Is "Jointness" the real problem, or is it a lack of airframes, aircrew and ground crew?
When we finally stand up 4 sqns the government will claim that the RN can deploy 4 sqns from the carriers, and of course they will also claim the RAF could deploy 4 sqns on land, neglecting to mention that they couldn't do both at the same time. We will end up with the same situation as occurred when Harrier was deployed to Afghanistan and the Navy hardly got a sniff of a one. That's my objection to a joint force, its simply too easy for the government to get away with under equipping both the RN and RAF and avoiding the necessary hard choices, while pretending all is well.

[MRCA]

And when are we getting 4sqns??? There's only 2 budgeted for so far into the late 2020s if that ramp up is not delayed further due to budget issues!

[sea_eagle]

Oh I was sure we were getting 8 squadrons now? You do realise that an F-35, in any flavour, is x12 more capable than anything in existence. So each squadron will only need 2 aircraft. Problem solved.

And when are we getting 4sqns??? There's only 2 budgeted for so far into the late 2020s if that ramp up is not delayed further due to budget issues!

[sunstersun]

the good news is there's tons of reserve production available should the need arrive.

but i've read sources saying that there might be another big player in Asia snapping up all that production.

[R686]

the good news is there's tons of reserve production available should the need arrive.

but i've read sources saying that there might be another big player in Asia snapping up all that production.

Singapore?

There was whispers of F35B, haven't heard anything for some time.

[Lord Jim]

If we are very very lucky will have a pool of around 50 aircraft to cover all operational needs from training to evaluation to operational use on land or sea. We may be ordering a total of 100+ over the life of the programme but later once will be replacing the ones delivered earlier. The 4 to 5 Typhoon squadrons will be doing most of the heavy lifting by conducting most of the operational duties until they are replaced. I would not be surprised if contrary to current announcements the Typhoon hangs around to the 2040s.

[sea_eagle]

I think South Korea's needs outweigh the needs of the small...I'm sure they will take 50 off the shelf right now

Singapore?

There was whispers of F35B, haven't heard anything for some time.

[sunstersun]

the good news is there's tons of reserve production available should the need arrive.

but i've read sources saying that there might be another big player in Asia snapping up all that production.

Singapore?

There was whispers of F35B, haven't heard anything for some time.

How is Singapore a big player in Asia?

The real answer is India.

Basically, the F-16 Make in India deal is the precursor to the F-35 in India.

And the the word is the F-16 is very much in the lead over the Gripen.

[R686]

the good news is there's tons of reserve production available should the need arrive.

but i've read sources saying that there might be another big player in Asia snapping up all that production.

Singapore?

There was whispers of F35B, haven't heard anything for some time.

How is Singapore a big player in Asia?

The real answer is India.

Basically, the F-16 Make in India deal is the precursor to the F-35 in India.

And the the word is the F-16 is very much in the lead over the Gripen.

When he said Another I knew JPN and SK where a forgone conclusion and Singapore had been making noises in the past.

I don't put much stock in Indian defence procurement untill it's sitting on the runway in their colours.

[NickC]

The F-35 contract was first placed with Lockheed Martin in 2001 and is yet to pass developmental testing and operational assessment to achieve authorisation for Production and Deployment, DOD Milestone C, though F-35 has turned into such a massive make work program its just politically too big to cancel. Milestone C has been in effect bypassed with the result that 108+ earlier USAF F-35A a/c manufactured under Engineering and Manufacturing Development Phase, Milestone B, will never become operational as just too expensive to update.

The F-35 is showing its age, last month UK Defence Journal reported " Lockheed Martin recently completed its 300th Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS) for the F-35 Lightning II stealth fighter. " FightGlobal article back in September 2015 stated Lockheed Martin was advocating the new and improved capabilities short-wave infrared, high-definition television, infrared marker and superior image detector resolution to replace the baseline EOTS. The new gen silicon IR tech is being used in their IRST21 pod for the F-18 “Beyond the detection of airborne threats, IRST21 significantly enhances multiple target resolution compared to radar, providing greater discrimination of threat formation at longer ranges. Data from the IRST21 sensor system can stand alone or be fused with other on-board sensor data to provide maximum situational awareness to the warfighter”, Rafael whose latest gen Litening targeting pod use the newer tech want to compete to replace LM for EOTS update in Block 4, will depend if funding is forthcoming, which it not certain.

The UASF older generation fighters are being updated with the new tech, Northrop Grumman with Selex sensor for IRST Pod for F-15 & F-16. As a result the older 4th generation fighters will have more modern systems/kit than the F-35.

There is a major problem as cost of new fighter a/c are mouth watering and so number of front line fighter a/c and squadrons continue to decline, US recently quoted Canada $5.23 billion for eighteen F-18E/Fs plus spares/kit and 100+ AIM-9s, $290/~£220 million each. If the $5.23B is a true cost with F-35B will looking at ~ £250+ million each, 12 a/c plus 2 for attrition taxpayer looking at finding £3.5 billion per squadron, may be higher. New thinking is required to bring costs down and allow buying of realistic numbers of operational a/c.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... or-416631/

[RetroSicotte]

The big thing to always remember is there's a large difference between "fighter with targeting pod" and "F-35" here.

A legacy fighter needs to strap a pod to its hardpoints (losing the ability to carry something and possibly causing symmetry concerns for the loading, or in the Typhoon's case, one of its only three fuel positions) and then fly with it hanging off the aircraft. Drag, range loss, aerodynamics being affected etc. And you only ever have as many aircraft targeting as you have pods to go around.

Conversely every single F-35 has this pod mounted in the nose. There no longer any concerns over who gets them, they just all have it. All the time. All the missions. No using up hardpoints. No drag. No range loss. It's integrated, it's a standardised capability now.

Even if it's not quite as good as the latest unique pods (all used by allies of the F-35's countries I might add), it's still a very good one when compared to the world at large. However to imply it's just "behind" them is ignoring that it has its own wealth of huge advantages that come from mounting it like it does.

Especially for the UK, the F-35 having this permits the Typhoons to take sole custody of the targeting pods that Tornados would previously have used. That's not a small advantage to suddenly find yourself with.

[MRCA]

A legacy fighter needs to strap a pod to its hardpoints (losing the ability to carry something and possibly causing symmetry concerns for the loading, or in the Typhoon's case, one of its only three fuel positions) and then fly with it hanging off the aircraft. Drag, range loss, aerodynamics being affected etc. And you only ever have as many aircraft targeting as you have pods to go around.


Remind me how many fuel positions f35 has and how many fuel tanks we getting in the program to use those points and if that's common to all variants?

What happens if f35 needs a gun? Specially the variant were being? What happens to its performance?

With thing like targeting pods you don't need them on ever mission or on every a/c all the time. Why would you carry the excess weight and fuel burn penalty if you didn't have too. It's also much easier to upgrade a pod than a sensor integrated on the a/c especially a low observable one with appature constraints. And it cost less to procure upfront and your not tied to a single supplier if it's not integral to the a/c

Like everything there's advantages and disadvantages to every design assuming the way f35 is best is as gd as swallowing the LM sales brochure and regurgitating it.

[Gabriele]

with the result that 108+ earlier USAF F-35A a/c manufactured under Engineering and Manufacturing Development Phase, Milestone B, will never become operational as just too expensive to update.

108 aircraft are not just A but also B and some C.
Uplift of several of them is actually already underway; and the proposal to not uplift them to Block 3F is only that, a proposal. As for "never operational", that would in any case not be true as they would be used for training. And if the US ever really needed to, for combat too, as they are actually capable to take part in combat ops. But the truth is that even if all of them were kept at Block 2B, they'd all be absorbed by the US training fleet and more aircraft still would be needed to complete it.

The OCUs alone, or Fleet Replacement Squadrons, more accurately, will swallow 60 F-35C, 50 F-35B and a ton of F-35A on their own. It is nowhere near as big a deal as you want to make it.

The EOTS will see capability insertions over time, just like every other system in every other fleet. As for stuff ordered now, to specifics drafted now, compared to something conceived in 2001... well, no shit Sherlock. It is more recent for sure. As the first range of upgrades rolls in with Block IV, the F-35 will be ahead again.

[Ron5]

A legacy fighter needs to strap a pod to its hardpoints (losing the ability to carry something and possibly causing symmetry concerns for the loading, or in the Typhoon's case, one of its only three fuel positions) and then fly with it hanging off the aircraft. Drag, range loss, aerodynamics being affected etc. And you only ever have as many aircraft targeting as you have pods to go around.


Remind me how many fuel positions f35 has and how many fuel tanks we getting in the program to use those points and if that's common to all variants?

What happens if f35 needs a gun? Specially the variant were being? What happens to its performance?

With thing like targeting pods you don't need them on ever mission or on every a/c all the time. Why would you carry the excess weight and fuel burn penalty if you didn't have too. It's also much easier to upgrade a pod than a sensor integrated on the a/c especially a low observable one with appature constraints. And it cost less to procure upfront and your not tied to a single supplier if it's not integral to the a/c

Like everything there's advantages and disadvantages to every design assuming the way f35 is best is as gd as swallowing the LM sales brochure and regurgitating it.

So loaded for bear, Typhoon doesn't need any tanks? I don't think so. I've never ever seen a photo of Typhoon in action without them. And what do they do to Typhoons performance?

As for guns, gimme a break. How many times has Typhoon used its gun in anger. Or Tornado for that matter.

#navyaircraftshouldbenavy

[RetroSicotte]

Remind me how many fuel positions f35 has and how many fuel tanks we getting in the program to use those points and if that's common to all variants?

What happens if f35 needs a gun? Specially the variant were being? What happens to its performance?

With thing like targeting pods you don't need them on ever mission or on every a/c all the time. Why would you carry the excess weight and fuel burn penalty if you didn't have too. It's also much easier to upgrade a pod than a sensor integrated on the a/c especially a low observable one with appature constraints. And it cost less to procure upfront and your not tied to a single supplier if it's not integral to the a/c

Like everything there's advantages and disadvantages to every design assuming the way f35 is best is as gd as swallowing the LM sales brochure and regurgitating it.

I can remind you that the F-35 has one of the best ranges of any modern fighter already, and that it's a program in development with drop tanks coming along already. So it "always carrying" it is a moot point about it holding it back. It already hasn't. The aircraft has demonstrated very powerful aerodynamic ability with it onboard already. There are precious few legacy aircraft like the F-16 that could be so agile or fast when carrying the same load as what an F-35 can carry internally, pod and EW included. (Both of which are external for many aircraft, including the Tornado.)

And there already is a program to upgrade its internal targeting, so it not being easy is again, a moot point.

Strawmanning me as saying "F-35 is best" isn't particularly helpful, especially when I never said that and don't subscribe to the "which is best?!" type nonsense. What I said is that decrying it as "it has worse pods" is entirely inaccurate, as it has its own very powerful advantages in the way it operates such targeting that permit it to run clean.

[MRCA]

Ron5

A gun is a Prerequisite for air defence, and as for tornado regularly on recent operations maybe you haven’t been informed. Typhoon operates with either 1 2 or 3 tanks but then it 13 stores stations on which to hang them and weapons as opposed to f35s 4 before its range and performance falls off a cliff. Typhoon will operate across its operating envelope unhindered unless carrying heavy stores.

Retro

The answer would be 2 positions and Drop tanks aren’t in development. It’s demostrated it meet its reduced contracted performance requirements. There is a program to update to a standard allowed within the limitations of the jet appature, however there’s currently no cost for that program or how many the UK will update.

I think your strawmanning yourself.

[RetroSicotte]

Ron5
Typhoon operates with either 1 2 or 3 tanks but then it 13 stores stations on which to hang them and weapons as opposed to f35s 4 before its range and performance falls off a cliff.

I love how you completely ignored that having the same loadout will affect a Typhoon's range and performance a HELL of a lot more due to carrying so much externally. The F-35 isn't unique in that carrying externally reduces range, that's a standard thing for all aircraft. The F-35 has 10 hardpoints, not 4. (11, as stated by Gabe below, but remember it has one more 'effective' one, as it doesn't need to waste space on a pod)

The answer would be 2 positions and Drop tanks aren’t in development. It’s demostrated it meet its reduced contracted performance requirements. There is a program to update to a standard allowed within the limitations of the jet appature, however there’s currently no cost for that program or how many the UK will update.

I think your strawmanning yourself.

They most definitely are, they've been shown in a lot of the developmental future presentations, the reason they aren't considered so much is due to its very large internal fuel. An internal fuel only F-35B (the shortest ranged variant) will still outreach a tanked Super Hornet with the same things an F-35 can carry internally, for goodness sake. Range is not an issue with this plane.

And again the usual "reduced performance" without any yardstick.

Look at how it IS performing. And what it IS doing is very very good things indeed.

[Gabriele]

The F-35 has 10 hardpoints, not 4.

Actually, it's 11 stations including the 1000 lbs station for the gun, which might still get used for something else as well, with the gunpod having already been proposed as "container" for EW, cyber and other payloads). 4 internal, 6 under the wings, one centerline under the fuselage.

[sunstersun]

gabriele we need a new blog post

[Pymes75]

Re range - fast forward to: 15:46

All of the rest of the interview is very interesting too!

There's another great Youtube clip with Chip Burke on a radio show countering Pierre Sprey's BS. The moment when he reply's to Pierre's insinuation that F-35 pilots are just 'fanboys' is priceless (and a wonder that Chip didn't want to take Pierre's head off!).

[sunstersun]

https://patratora.gr/archives/213112

[Lord Jim]

It seems the MoD has changed its confidence rating on the F-35 programme form Amber to Red due to worries that deliveries of the simulators, certain weapons and necessary software will not meet the currently planned timeline leading to delays in deliveries of the initial order.

[NickC]

It seems the MoD has changed its confidence rating on the F-35 programme form Amber to Red due to worries that deliveries of the simulators, certain weapons and necessary software will not meet the currently planned timeline leading to delays in deliveries of the initial order.

NAO update - Delivering Carrier Strike: Supplementary memorandum

As previously reported F-35 schedule slipped from amber to amber/red in June 2017 due to concerns that simulators provided to train UK pilots would not be representative of the UK aircraft standard and again re-states F-35 capabilities will be likely restricted as a consequence of being manufactured while design is still underway.

From <http://data.parliament.uk/writteneviden ... 70949.html>

[Ron5]

Does it matter? there's no money to buy any anyway.

[R686]

Does it matter? there's no money to buy any anyway.

A sim I would expect to be a hell of a lot cheaper than an actual plane in terms of not only buy operating, but then with the way electricty prices are going in Australia if that any representative of prices in the UK jet fuel maybe cheaper.