F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Remote Lift Fan
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by sol »

Scimitar54 wrote: 26 Apr 2024, 18:36 Remote Lift Fan
Maybe this is way for the Royal Navy to use F-35C from QE class.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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SW1 wrote: 26 Apr 2024, 14:02 New f35 extended range version

Image

Now, hear me out...
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Trillion Dollar Trainwreck: How The F-35 Hollowed Out The U.S. Air Force – May 19, 2024
by Bill Sweetman

The Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter is being built in larger numbers than any other military aircraft today. It has won every export sales battle that it has engaged in. Hundreds are in service with the U.S. Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps, and with U.S. allies worthwhile.
This book argues that it has been a failure.
The last of more than 1,700 F-35s that the Air Force needs to replace Cold War-era F-16s and F-15s will be 25 years late, according to the schedule set in 2001. The older jets are beginning to wear out, beyond economic repair, with no airplanes to replace them. Entire squadrons are being withdrawn from the forces needed to support operations worldwide and deter China and Russia.
And as this report appears, no F-35s are being delivered. Brand-new airplanes costing $100-$150 million each are rolling off the production line into a secret storage location because of faulty electronics. They won't be combat-ready until late 2025.
How did this happen?
In a penetrating, meticulously researched report for the professional reader, veteran investigative journalist and industry executive Bill Sweetman explains how the project was launched in the 1990s with complex, conflicting goals and an unsound strategy.
When things inevitably went wrong, as the airplane gained weight, proved almost impossible to build and susceptible to overheating, and as the 1990s-technology electronics proved unequal to what was demands of them, program leaders refused to slow down. They set unrealistic schedules and budgets for fixing problems. Every failed fix made matters worse.
Both the government program office - nominally working for us - and prime contractor Lockheed Martin pumped out rosy promises about getting the program back on track, publishing fanciful schedules, minimizing problems and attacking critics. Senior defense leaders, Congress and media, preoccupied with war, paid too little attention.
And now the Air Force is falling apart, its fleet "geriatric" in the words of a senior retired officer, or to quote one of D.C.'s leading defense budget wonks, "in a death spiral". In conclusion, Sweetman outlines some radical changes to eliminate perverse incentives from defense procurement.
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Lost me at "faulty electronics". Software is the issue
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Caribbean wrote: 03 Jun 2024, 17:50 Lost me at "faulty electronics". Software is the issue
Yep.

Its says by Bill Sweetman, he is notorious for his F-35 stance. I don't usually take note of people names in articles but when you have been so hyperbolic in the past that even I know your name it might be time to rain it in.
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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NickC wrote: 03 Jun 2024, 15:55 Trillion Dollar Trainwreck: How The F-35 Hollowed Out The U.S. Air Force – May 19, 2024
by Bill Sweetman
You missed out the price in your advert only $34.95 on Amazon. But it Now!

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Does it include a new interview with Pierre Sprey? The sole designer of the F-14, F-15, F-16, FA-18, F-22, U-2, SR-71 and not forgetting the P-51 and Spitfire, just to name a few... :twisted: :silent:



And yes, I know his current status :angel:
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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I remember Bill Sweetman's articles in Aviation Week and Space Technology Magazine back in the 1990's, to be fair they used to be good reading. Nowadays perhaps its time he retired he must be of that age where the mind loses its sharpness.
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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bobp wrote: 04 Jun 2024, 09:28 I remember Bill Sweetman's articles in Aviation Week and Space Technology Magazine back in the 1990's, to be fair they used to be good reading. Nowadays perhaps its time he retired he must be of that age where the mind loses its sharpness.
I looked him up, he's 68 and lives in Minnesota. God awful place where winter lasts 364 days a year. Or so it seems :)

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by sol »

Batman's F-35B
image_1488707_20240620_ob_e79797_448266445-7659519347501132-47681585158.jpg
Original source of image (with couple more)
http://masm.over-blog.com/2024/06/lockh ... sheme.html


Jokes aside, for occasion of final flight of the commanding officer of VMFA-242 (USMC), on F-35B was painted a motif based on squadron's "bat" symbol. For more images:
https://www.twz.com/air/f-35b-dons-huge ... n-its-back
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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A thread on the F35 radar....

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Lt. Gen. Mike Schmidt, the F-35 program executive officer, on July 3 decided to move forward with the plan to accept jets with a “truncated” version of its Technology Refresh 3, or TR-3, software, the Joint Program Office said in an email. This decision was made after consulting with the military services, pilots, maintainers, industry, and the executive steering board that oversees the F-35, the JPO said.
Wonder would UK also accept this compromise or will it require full TR-3 upgrade for last 13 planes of Tranche 1, 6 of which are supposed to be delivered until the end on 2024.

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2024/07 ... ong-pause/
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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The first F-35 sortie exclusively done by 809 NAS personnel.

https://www.navylookout.com/809-naval-a ... the-skies/
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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sol wrote: 15 Jul 2024, 12:46 The first F-35 sortie exclusively done by 809 NAS personnel.

https://www.navylookout.com/809-naval-a ... the-skies/
Give them all to the RN. Fly Navy!!
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Ron5 wrote: 15 Jul 2024, 13:06 Give them all to the RN. Fly Navy!!
It would be nice to see another FAA F-35 squadron, 800 or 801 would be great. If UK decide to go with four frontline squadrons we might but I think they will not go further than three. But I don't mind RAF and FAA operating plane together, and UK is not the only one with this approach, with Italian Air Force and Italian Navy both having one squadron of F-35B. What I would wish tho is some squadron markings on both RAF and FAA planes.
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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sol wrote: 16 Jul 2024, 08:03
Ron5 wrote: 15 Jul 2024, 13:06 Give them all to the RN. Fly Navy!!
It would be nice to see another FAA F-35 squadron, 800 or 801 would be great. If UK decide to go with four frontline squadrons we might but I think they will not go further than three. But I don't mind RAF and FAA operating plane together, and UK is not the only one with this approach, with Italian Air Force and Italian Navy both having one squadron of F-35B. What I would wish tho is some squadron markings on both RAF and FAA planes.
A robust minimum carrier force would be 4 front line Squadrons.

That would mean an an order of 90 odd F35B's.

If the order for tranche 2 F35 survives SDSR25, then 3 Squdrons is doable.

I suspect tranche 2 will be cancelled along with any plans to operate both QE Class carriers.

I think the carriers will be in rotation, the other in long refit/reserve to ensure one is avaliable at all times.

2x front line Squadrons, plus various relatively cheap drones, off a single operational carrier.

I suspect project Ark Royal will be radically reduced in scope, no angled deck, arrestor gear, UCAV's etc.

I certainly hope not, but it's very easy low hanging fruit for the SDSR.
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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From Janes this morning:
Italian Navy to equip F-35Bs with JSM, SPEAR 3 stand-off weapons
2024-07-16

The Italian Navy has spelled out the future weapons package for the F-35B (foreground) that it is to field over the coming decades in place of the AV-8B (background). For the first time, this includes both the JSM and SPEAR 3 stand-off missiles. (Italian Navy)

The Italian Navy (Marina Militare Italiana: MMI) is to equip its Lockheed Martin F-35B Lighting II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) fleet with two stand-off missile types not previously disclosed.

The Senate of the Republic, Chamber of Deputies 19th Legislature's Documentation of the Examination of Government Acts published on 15 July revealed that the MMI's fleet of F-35Bs will be armed with the Kongsberg-RTX Joint Strike Missile (JSM) and the MBDA Selected Precision Effects At Range (SPEAR) 3 air-to-surface missile, among other previously disclosed weapon types.

“The armament programme, in international co-operation, aims to equip the country with a fifth-generation aeronautical weapon system capable of replacing the legacy [McDonnell Douglas] AV-8B [Harrier II] line, with an operational time horizon of at least 30 years, to effectively cope with the growing complexity of current and future operational scenarios,” the document said. “The MMI line will consist of 15 F-35B shorttake-off and vertical landing (STOVL) aircraft for which the availability of armament and self-protection systems, according to actual needs, capable of supporting and protecting theNaval Squadron is central,” the document added.

As noted in the document, the proposed weapons fit is geared at ensuring the MMI's F-35B fleet has quantities needed for a hypothetical six-month operational scenario.
Image
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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I guess that confirms the external integration of the JSM onto the F-35s, I know we had seen fit checks a while ago but I had only seen testing of the JSM on internal bays for the A models. :thumbup:

Good to see another Spear 3 customers as well, now we need to get the missile into service.
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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mrclark303 wrote: 16 Jul 2024, 10:51
sol wrote: 16 Jul 2024, 08:03
Ron5 wrote: 15 Jul 2024, 13:06 Give them all to the RN. Fly Navy!!
It would be nice to see another FAA F-35 squadron, 800 or 801 would be great. If UK decide to go with four frontline squadrons we might but I think they will not go further than three. But I don't mind RAF and FAA operating plane together, and UK is not the only one with this approach, with Italian Air Force and Italian Navy both having one squadron of F-35B. What I would wish tho is some squadron markings on both RAF and FAA planes.
A robust minimum carrier force would be 4 front line Squadrons.

That would mean an an order of 90 odd F35B's.

If the order for tranche 2 F35 survives SDSR25, then 3 Squdrons is doable.

I suspect tranche 2 will be cancelled along with any plans to operate both QE Class carriers.

I think the carriers will be in rotation, the other in long refit/reserve to ensure one is avaliable at all times.

2x front line Squadrons, plus various relatively cheap drones, off a single operational carrier.

I suspect project Ark Royal will be radically reduced in scope, no angled deck, arrestor gear, UCAV's etc.

I certainly hope not, but it's very easy low hanging fruit for the SDSR.
74 F-35B is more than enough for a 24 CSG airwing, so unless you envision 36+ 90 is definitely not needed.
On sqn numbers the RAF and MoD probably know what they are doing with a plan for a 3rd between current 47 and the next 27.
The budget for tranche 2 is already ring fenced, allocated and backed. So unless the decide to commit relatively minor political suicide it would be in there best interest not to, even if the carriers didn't exist at all.

The carriers are in rotation right now. That is why we have 2. that is why we have 2 carrier crews.
If you are to put one in the kind of refit the LPD's are in then by the time you could get a carrier out from it you would have the other one fixed in time
Not to mention that for all the complaints of the LPD's complexity, putting a carrier into reserve would be 1000x worse.
With a guaranteed higher rate of failure coming out of refit.

So then what you are proposing is one carrier crew.
a.k.a crew overload.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Pte. James Frazer »

mrclark303 wrote:
sol wrote: 16 Jul 2024, 08:03
Ron5 wrote: 15 Jul 2024, 13:06 Give them all to the RN. Fly Navy!!
It would be nice to see another FAA F-35 squadron, 800 or 801 would be great. If UK decide to go with four frontline squadrons we might but I think they will not go further than three. But I don't mind RAF and FAA operating plane together, and UK is not the only one with this approach, with Italian Air Force and Italian Navy both having one squadron of F-35B. What I would wish tho is some squadron markings on both RAF and FAA planes.
A robust minimum carrier force would be 4 front line Squadrons.

That would mean an an order of 90 odd F35B's.

If the order for tranche 2 F35 survives SDSR25, then 3 Squdrons is doable.

I suspect tranche 2 will be cancelled along with any plans to operate both QE Class carriers.

I think the carriers will be in rotation, the other in long refit/reserve to ensure one is avaliable at all times.

2x front line Squadrons, plus various relatively cheap drones, off a single operational carrier.

I suspect project Ark Royal will be radically reduced in scope, no angled deck, arrestor gear, UCAV's etc.

I certainly hope not, but it's very easy low hanging fruit for the SDSR.
The biggest handicap that many overlook to having 4 frontline F35 squadrons is the infrastructure at Marham....which I'd offer is limited to the OCU (+ possibly the repatriated OEU) and 3 frontline squadrons.

We're pickled unless the MoD funds and opens up another F35 MoB and that capex ain't going to happen.

Might be able to supersize the squadrons to 15-16 apiece at a push.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by mrclark303 »

new guy wrote: 16 Jul 2024, 16:55
mrclark303 wrote: 16 Jul 2024, 10:51
sol wrote: 16 Jul 2024, 08:03
Ron5 wrote: 15 Jul 2024, 13:06 Give them all to the RN. Fly Navy!!
It would be nice to see another FAA F-35 squadron, 800 or 801 would be great. If UK decide to go with four frontline squadrons we might but I think they will not go further than three. But I don't mind RAF and FAA operating plane together, and UK is not the only one with this approach, with Italian Air Force and Italian Navy both having one squadron of F-35B. What I would wish tho is some squadron markings on both RAF and FAA planes.
A robust minimum carrier force would be 4 front line Squadrons.

That would mean an an order of 90 odd F35B's.

If the order for tranche 2 F35 survives SDSR25, then 3 Squdrons is doable.

I suspect tranche 2 will be cancelled along with any plans to operate both QE Class carriers.

I think the carriers will be in rotation, the other in long refit/reserve to ensure one is avaliable at all times.

2x front line Squadrons, plus various relatively cheap drones, off a single operational carrier.

I suspect project Ark Royal will be radically reduced in scope, no angled deck, arrestor gear, UCAV's etc.

I certainly hope not, but it's very easy low hanging fruit for the SDSR.
74 F-35B is more than enough for a 24 CSG airwing, so unless you envision 36+ 90 is definitely not needed.
On sqn numbers the RAF and MoD probably know what they are doing with a plan for a 3rd between current 47 and the next 27.
The budget for tranche 2 is already ring fenced, allocated and backed. So unless the decide to commit relatively minor political suicide it would be in there best interest not to, even if the carriers didn't exist at all.

The carriers are in rotation right now. That is why we have 2. that is why we have 2 carrier crews.
If you are to put one in the kind of refit the LPD's are in then by the time you could get a carrier out from it you would have the other one fixed in time
Not to mention that for all the complaints of the LPD's complexity, putting a carrier into reserve would be 1000x worse.
With a guaranteed higher rate of failure coming out of refit.

So then what you are proposing is one carrier crew.
a.k.a crew overload.
Unfortunately, it's what I strongly suspect will happen in SDSR25

I certainly don't want it too...

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Ron5 wrote: 16 Jul 2024, 12:32 From Janes this morning:
Italian Navy to equip F-35Bs with JSM, SPEAR 3 stand-off weapons
2024-07-16

The Italian Navy has spelled out the future weapons package for the F-35B (foreground) that it is to field over the coming decades in place of the AV-8B (background). For the first time, this includes both the JSM and SPEAR 3 stand-off missiles. (Italian Navy)

The Italian Navy (Marina Militare Italiana: MMI) is to equip its Lockheed Martin F-35B Lighting II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) fleet with two stand-off missile types not previously disclosed.

The Senate of the Republic, Chamber of Deputies 19th Legislature's Documentation of the Examination of Government Acts published on 15 July revealed that the MMI's fleet of F-35Bs will be armed with the Kongsberg-RTX Joint Strike Missile (JSM) and the MBDA Selected Precision Effects At Range (SPEAR) 3 air-to-surface missile, among other previously disclosed weapon types.

“The armament programme, in international co-operation, aims to equip the country with a fifth-generation aeronautical weapon system capable of replacing the legacy [McDonnell Douglas] AV-8B [Harrier II] line, with an operational time horizon of at least 30 years, to effectively cope with the growing complexity of current and future operational scenarios,” the document said. “The MMI line will consist of 15 F-35B shorttake-off and vertical landing (STOVL) aircraft for which the availability of armament and self-protection systems, according to actual needs, capable of supporting and protecting theNaval Squadron is central,” the document added.

As noted in the document, the proposed weapons fit is geared at ensuring the MMI's F-35B fleet has quantities needed for a hypothetical six-month operational scenario.
Image
This is very good news on a number of fronts.

- It confirms Italy as an F-35/Meteor user....hopefully the Italian Air Force will confirm in due course for F-35A (and B).
- Italy joins the Spear club (now UK, Germany, Spain and Italy....plus I suspect Saudi,with Oman, Kuwait and Qatar to come...with Sweden, I suspect, in the future)
- This is the first sale of JSM specifically for F-35B, there has always been some doubt about whether JSM on F-35B would progress beyond ground fit tests to actual operational use (not so for F-35A)...with a customer this is now beyond doubt (I think Japan was a nailed on certaintly eventually, but this resolves it).
- It's the first sale of Spear for F-35 to a country that has also purchased SDBII for F-35...(Italy has purchased c180 SDBII), Germany was going down this route but it was unclear if Spear was Typhoon only, with SDBII for F-35A only...thats interesting....could open Germnay's eyes as well...perhaps Spain when they inevitably buy, at least,some F-35B for the Armada (what choice do they have)
- Suspect Italy will be interested in Spear-EW as well...particularly for the SEAD/DEAD mission

For the UK another Spear sale, particularly as its F-35 related not Typhoon,.... plus Meteor on F-35...is very welcome. Plus the Italian purchase of JSM and the gun for F-35B should 'hopefully' (perhaps forlornly) give the UK a little interest in both...
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Ron5 »

IMHO, a gun for the F-35B is a total waste of money. What the hell would it be for?

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

Ron5 wrote: 17 Jul 2024, 12:50 IMHO, a gun for the F-35B is a total waste of money. What the hell would it be for?
I think the RAF agrees. They never bothered with one on Harrier II after the ADEN 25 failed development (although they were developing it in the first place, but after its failure they could have reverted to the twin ADEN 30 or bought the US solution with GAU-25), they wanted rid of the Typhoon one (until they realised it would cost more to develop a concrete mass to replace the gun and flight test it to retain correct CoG, so ended up retaining...) and they haven't purchased the Terma external pod for F-35B....

But...Harrier could have done with the gun pod for Afghanistan, Tornado used its guns in Afg (and I think Iraq), Typhoon gun retention is now seen as a good thing...and I think it has actually been used...

Personally, I'd rather have it than not...at least as an option. We've been saying the gun is obsolete since 1960...and been found repeatedly wrong. Particularly with slow, very cheap targets around like UAV, which could potentially be hard to acquire with missiles or too cheap to justify Asraam, Amraam or Meteor. A gun is just another arrow in the quiver in that respect. But I do understand why others disagree.

I suspect GCAP might end up having one as I suspect the Italians and Japanese will want it, so UK will acquiesce.
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