Ground Based Air Defence

Contains threads on British Army equipment of the past, present and future.
BB85
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by BB85 »

To me the 1km range is not the major issue, if its purpose is to defeat swarm drone attacks, the game changer would be to miniaturise this so it can be operated similar to trophy where it can be bolted onto armoured vehicles.
I know Ajax has passive defensive aid systems but don't believe they would do much against drones.

tomuk
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by tomuk »

SD67 wrote: 17 May 2024, 07:40
tomuk wrote: 22 Apr 2024, 17:36
Tempest414 wrote: 22 Apr 2024, 17:25
tomuk wrote: 22 Apr 2024, 17:06
Tempest414 wrote: 22 Apr 2024, 11:08 For me if we can take the Falklands as a case I would like to see a CAMM battery on MP airfield and a land based Type 45 system with Aster 30 on Mount Adam West Falklands

we also need to be thinking hard about the low end and for me we need to be looking a 6 round rapid ranger system with a 25 or 30mm gun and maybe even lower than that something like RWS mounted GAU-19
There is a CAMM battery on the Falklands and it more than enough to protect a few thousand sheep. It doesn't need anymore protection.
Glad your so fucking sure
Of what? That Argentina isn't going to try and invade tomorrow? What is the current order of battle of the Argentine forces?
We're in a pre war environment in case you hadn't noticed. 12 mnths ago who would have thought that a rag tag militia of a few hundred Yemeni's would be able to divert 40% of the world's shipping from the Suez canal and tie down a good proportion of NATOs maritime strength
All sounds a bit reds under the bed to me. The Houthi problem cold have been sorted out sooner\better if we were willing but we can't even coordinate our vessels properly with the twin us\eu led missions.

NickC
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by NickC »

BB85 wrote: 17 May 2024, 10:54 To me the 1km range is not the major issue, if its purpose is to defeat swarm drone attacks, the game changer would be to miniaturise this so it can be operated similar to trophy where it can be bolted onto armoured vehicles.
I know Ajax has passive defensive aid systems but don't believe they would do much against drones.
Think one of the the the unknowns is the question is if the Ajax can generate the required necessary power for an effective HPM.

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Timmymagic
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Timmymagic »

If Moog are going to make this in the UK it settles it for me....

All we need is the Venom LR replacing M230LF, an updated ADAD and some Blighter AESA panels and we're good to go...

Brimstone, Javelin, Starstreak, APKWS and LMM....what more could you want....well unfortunately I don't think its meaty enough for CT40...

https://x.com/TotherChris/status/1796282758702002298

https://www.moog.com/products/turreted- ... he-uk.html

Ron5
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Ron5 »

Timmymagic wrote: 31 May 2024, 20:17 All we need is the Venom LR replacing M230LF, an updated ADAD and some Blighter AESA panels and we're good to go...
Or just buy RM Skyranger 30 that actually exists and works.

RunningStrong
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by RunningStrong »

Ron5 wrote: 01 Jun 2024, 12:58
Timmymagic wrote: 31 May 2024, 20:17 All we need is the Venom LR replacing M230LF, an updated ADAD and some Blighter AESA panels and we're good to go...
Or just buy RM Skyranger 30 that actually exists and works.
How much the Germans paying you?

Ron5
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Ron5 »

RunningStrong wrote: 01 Jun 2024, 13:42
Ron5 wrote: 01 Jun 2024, 12:58
Timmymagic wrote: 31 May 2024, 20:17 All we need is the Venom LR replacing M230LF, an updated ADAD and some Blighter AESA panels and we're good to go...
Or just buy RM Skyranger 30 that actually exists and works.
How much the Germans paying you?
How much are the Americans & Turks paying you?

sol
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by sol »

If UK chose MOOG then maybe they could order couple of those equipped with XM813 30mm gun and stick it on infantry version of Boxer

Image

RunningStrong
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by RunningStrong »

Ron5 wrote: 01 Jun 2024, 16:21
RunningStrong wrote: 01 Jun 2024, 13:42
Ron5 wrote: 01 Jun 2024, 12:58
Timmymagic wrote: 31 May 2024, 20:17 All we need is the Venom LR replacing M230LF, an updated ADAD and some Blighter AESA panels and we're good to go...
Or just buy RM Skyranger 30 that actually exists and works.
How much the Germans paying you?
How much are the Americans & Turks paying you?
I never had you down as a back-foot politician :lol:

mr.fred
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by mr.fred »

sol wrote: 01 Jun 2024, 21:43 If UK chose MOOG then maybe they could order couple of those equipped with XM813 30mm gun and stick it on infantry version of Boxer
If the 30x173mm is available, I'd say go with that for everything unless the weight is unbearable.

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Timmymagic
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Timmymagic »

Ron5 wrote: 01 Jun 2024, 12:58
Timmymagic wrote: 31 May 2024, 20:17 All we need is the Venom LR replacing M230LF, an updated ADAD and some Blighter AESA panels and we're good to go...
Or just buy RM Skyranger 30 that actually exists and works.
The Moog RiWP is in service with the US already. It's the RWS used on Stryker Shorad. 144 on order with it entering service in 2021...

There are no Skyranger 30 or 35 in service anywhere on earth....
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NickC
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by NickC »

Timmymagic wrote: 02 Jun 2024, 00:44 There are no Skyranger 30 or 35 in service anywhere on earth....

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... nce-system


https://www.defense-aerospace.com/denma ... se-turret/

Ron5
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Ron5 »

RunningStrong wrote: 01 Jun 2024, 21:50
Ron5 wrote: 01 Jun 2024, 16:21
RunningStrong wrote: 01 Jun 2024, 13:42
Ron5 wrote: 01 Jun 2024, 12:58
Timmymagic wrote: 31 May 2024, 20:17 All we need is the Venom LR replacing M230LF, an updated ADAD and some Blighter AESA panels and we're good to go...
Or just buy RM Skyranger 30 that actually exists and works.
How much the Germans paying you?
How much are the Americans & Turks paying you?
I never had you down as a back-foot politician :lol:
Huh?

Ron5
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Ron5 »

Timmymagic wrote: 02 Jun 2024, 00:44
Ron5 wrote: 01 Jun 2024, 12:58
Timmymagic wrote: 31 May 2024, 20:17 All we need is the Venom LR replacing M230LF, an updated ADAD and some Blighter AESA panels and we're good to go...
Or just buy RM Skyranger 30 that actually exists and works.
The Moog RiWP is in service with the US already. It's the RWS used on Stryker Shorad. 144 on order with it entering service in 2021...

There are no Skyranger 30 or 35 in service anywhere on earth....
Fully equipped with your Venom, ADAD and Blighter AESA?? Hell no.

Skyranger on order for multiple customers.

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Timmymagic
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Timmymagic »

NickC wrote: 02 Jun 2024, 12:32
Timmymagic wrote: 02 Jun 2024, 00:44 There are no Skyranger 30 or 35 in service anywhere on earth....

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... nce-system


https://www.defense-aerospace.com/denma ... se-turret/
Ordered...not delivered or operational

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Timmymagic
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Timmymagic »

Ron5 wrote: 02 Jun 2024, 14:43
Timmymagic wrote: 02 Jun 2024, 00:44
Ron5 wrote: 01 Jun 2024, 12:58
Timmymagic wrote: 31 May 2024, 20:17 All we need is the Venom LR replacing M230LF, an updated ADAD and some Blighter AESA panels and we're good to go...
Or just buy RM Skyranger 30 that actually exists and works.
The Moog RiWP is in service with the US already. It's the RWS used on Stryker Shorad. 144 on order with it entering service in 2021...

There are no Skyranger 30 or 35 in service anywhere on earth....
Fully equipped with your Venom, ADAD and Blighter AESA?? Hell no.

Skyranger on order for multiple customers.
Venom is a very straightforward swap out, MooG showed an RiWP with ADAD style sensor mounted on the rear of the mount some time ago, and there is already radar panels integrated on the mount, which ones they are is a bit of an irrelevance...

Ron5
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Ron5 »

Timmymagic wrote: 03 Jun 2024, 11:33
Ron5 wrote: 02 Jun 2024, 14:43
Timmymagic wrote: 02 Jun 2024, 00:44
Ron5 wrote: 01 Jun 2024, 12:58
Timmymagic wrote: 31 May 2024, 20:17 All we need is the Venom LR replacing M230LF, an updated ADAD and some Blighter AESA panels and we're good to go...
Or just buy RM Skyranger 30 that actually exists and works.
The Moog RiWP is in service with the US already. It's the RWS used on Stryker Shorad. 144 on order with it entering service in 2021...

There are no Skyranger 30 or 35 in service anywhere on earth....
Fully equipped with your Venom, ADAD and Blighter AESA?? Hell no.

Skyranger on order for multiple customers.
Venom is a very straightforward swap out, MooG showed an RiWP with ADAD style sensor mounted on the rear of the mount some time ago, and there is already radar panels integrated on the mount, which ones they are is a bit of an irrelevance...
You want different missiles too. Not much left of the in service beast. Basically a brand new system. But whatever.

mr.fred
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by mr.fred »

While I don't think that putting a Venom into a place where an M230 was before is entirely trivial*, the swap out is hardly an insurmountable challenge and doesn't change the rest of the system, beyond perhaps some mods to the feed system. The bulk of the cost of a turret is in the servo control and the electro-optics, then the weapon mounts and feed, then the structure. Tuning the servo control for different guns is inherent in the design, obviously. Ballistics is a look-up table
Similarly with missiles. If you've got a mounting rail that's good for the weight, then a different missile isn't going to be much more of a challenge or change the underlying expensive bits, although integrating the guidance might be a bit more complex.

* The cases ejecting in a completely different direction for one:


Little J
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Little J »

Can't remember if I saw this on this site or not, but I'll post anyway
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Timmymagic
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Timmymagic »

Another possibility...and the RapidFire turet has had Starstreak/LMM modules mounted as well....

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Ron5
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Ron5 »

Timmymagic wrote: 17 Jun 2024, 11:58 Another possibility...and the RapidFire turet has had Starstreak/LMM modules mounted as well....

Huge expensive vehicle just to mount a (relatively) slow firing 40mm gun. Hard pass.

PS don't like the Tridon either.

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Timmymagic
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Timmymagic »

Ron5 wrote: 18 Jun 2024, 13:24 PS don't like the Tridon either.
As its demountable it's more useful than Tridon. But...unless the 40mm are bringing something special to the table (like the 40mm CT guided round using Starstreak Dart) I don't think they add a huge amount over faster firing 30mm guns given the type of threats. Yes their airburst is a lot more potent, and they have an advantage of range but its a hard task to hit a target travelling at speed at those ranges without a huge volume of fire.

RunningStrong
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by RunningStrong »

Ron5 wrote: 18 Jun 2024, 13:24
Timmymagic wrote: 17 Jun 2024, 11:58 Another possibility...and the RapidFire turet has had Starstreak/LMM modules mounted as well....

Huge expensive vehicle just to mount a (relatively) slow firing 40mm gun. Hard pass.

PS don't like the Tridon either.
What alternative vehicle would you use?

Pallet mounted on such a vehicle allows a larger magazine, upgraded sensors, additional weapons systems and effectors (missiles, LDEW) etc

I don't think the rate of fire on CT40 AAAB ammunition is the issue if you can fill the air with effect.

Ron5
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Ron5 »

They tried to develop a CTA40 that fired at twice the rate for air targets. Couldn't get it to work.

PS sticking naval gun turrets on big trucks or pallets seems a pretty daft way to go. But whatever.

RunningStrong
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by RunningStrong »

Ron5 wrote: 18 Jun 2024, 16:26 They tried to develop a CTA40 that fired at twice the rate for air targets. Couldn't get it to work.

PS sticking naval gun turrets on big trucks or pallets seems a pretty daft way to go. But whatever.
Yeah the rotating breech has it's own issues with higher rates of fire.

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