Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
serge750
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by serge750 »

I can imagie Saudi getting closer to project tempest, but mainly as a supplier or in the finacial side to secure early deliverys, but india would demand to much imo - bit like france if the were involed :D :roll: :wave:
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by ThreeHeadedLion »

Spitfire9 wrote: 31 May 2024, 10:26 It looks to me like there are two possible candidates - Saudi Arabia and India.
Two BRICS nations, that too as not just simple customers but as development partners. What could possibly go wrong.

Not to mention both nations currently have a downwards trajectory wrt relations with collective west.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by mrclark303 »

ThreeHeadedLion wrote: 31 May 2024, 17:23
Spitfire9 wrote: 31 May 2024, 10:26 It looks to me like there are two possible candidates - Saudi Arabia and India.
Two BRICS nations, that too as not just simple customers but as development partners. What could possibly go wrong.

Not to mention both nations currently have a downwards trajectory wrt relations with collective west.
Just my peneth worth, I personally wouldn't let India anywhere near GCAP.

Unstable and unreliable partners who would be just as likely to sell the technology to the highest bidder.

Their solidly pro Russia stance regarding Ukraine for cheap oil and gas shows us exactly where their loyalties are, to the highest bidder!

I would be astonished if Russian test pilots and technicians hadn't thoroughly tested an Indian Rafal.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Markam »

Potential Tempest customers? Hmm.

I was thinking aside from Saudi Arabia/Arab states other strong candidates are Australia, Canada, Holland, Norway, Denmark, Greece, Poland, Austria, Turkey, Singapore etc as decent targets, and maybe some South American countries like Brazil, Mexico, Thailand, Malaysia and the Philippines will be pretty good economically in 2035.

I would have said Indonesia, but they are giving South Korea a pain in the ass.

Japan will have a big role in Australia and the other Asian potentials, while UK/Italy handle the rest.

I imagine India will be using their own jets only in 2035.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Spitfire9 »

So, neither India nor Saudi Arabia would be suitable partners.

I have no idea what funding would be required to develop, test and certify Tempest, but it sounds to me like the general sentiment is that GCAP goes ahead with a question mark concerning the adequacy of funding. Additionally that It should go ahead using a commercial vehicle set up to protect the project from proper scrutiny by its funders. A bit like setting up a company where the shareholders' only form of information about the performance of the company is through what they can glean from the annual accounts. Would that be the best way to ensure that company was successful?

I hope that the project goes ahead but I hope in a less risky manner than that proposed.

PS By the way, it is reported in Indian media (unreliable) that there is a new push to secure Indian involvement in the programme, something that Japan and Italy would like to see.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

There are different levels of partnership, the word can mean anything.

IMO what India really cares about is in-country build. They've built Jaguar, Gnat, Hawk, MIG21, SU30. Their design input was zero and I cannot see that model changing much for GCAP. India's involvement would most likely be at the back end which means no cash inflow from India in the 2025-2030 period. Licensed production in the late 2030s as an SU30 competitor.

The Saudis are slightly different because a) they're an existing customer and b) they've never assembled a fighter before. Id guess there may be a linking of a follow up Typhoon order to some kind of GCAP industrial participation down the track

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Ron5 »

I'm very confident that no new countries will be joining GCAP as a development partner. There's no need and no time.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

Agreed. Frankly we've got the best development partners in the world, it's a McLaren/Ferrari/Honda F1 team, just crack on and build it. There'll be many parties coming in on the back end late 2030s
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Spitfire9 »

Ron5 wrote: 02 Jun 2024, 14:46 I'm very confident that no new countries will be joining GCAP as a development partner. There's no need and no time.
This would suggest otherwise:

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/air- ... ert-warns/

What was it I heard recently? Was it that 28 of 30 UK major military programmes were behind schedule or over cost?

I hope that the UK government demands that companies involved in GCAP raise their game a lot. The most ambitious development programmes are the most expensive. They need to be the best, most efficiently run. If UK plc is incapable of not falling far short of that, what useful purpose is served by it being in the business?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Damola3 »

SD67 wrote: 31 May 2024, 15:10
Spitfire9 wrote: 31 May 2024, 10:26 ? It looks to me like there are two possible candidates - Saudi Arabia and India. It would make sense to fully explore what arrangement could be made with these countries before reaching a decision on going ahead (or not going ahead) in 2025. What would be dumb would be to invest tens of billions only to hit the financial buffers years down the line if that could have been avoided.
There is no way on God's sweet earth that we should be making the Maingate decision conditional upon India or the Saudis coming on board.

The key point to grasp is that it is only development cost which is incremental. The build cost will need to be incurred anyway. Even if the plan was to shut down the entire UK aviation industry there would still need to be a budget line, starting about 2033, to purchase a Typhoon replacement.
I read in some Indian media that they are the ones who are pushing to join the programme in some capacity. Firstly, India are building a 4.5 gen fighter called HAL Tejal. They're trying to put RR and Safran against each other for the development of the aircraft's engine (of which they want tech transfer).

Secondly, the future of air combat is heavily based on software integration, advanced networking & loyal wingman drones.

Remember that GCAP is a component of FCAS. FCAS being the entire system because Tempest is built as a command and control node around many other nodes such as loyal wingman drones and other networking nodes (to transfer and process information). Software development and modularity is important as the hardware.

Contrary to popular belief, we aren't just building a fighter. GCAP is part of FCAS, but FCAS describes the French and German programme, so referring to GCAP as 'Tempest' is misleading/confusing. Look at our various demonstrators and attempts to develop loyal wingman drones over the past few years.

Contrary to popular belief, we have heavily been involved in aircraft development since Typhoon, except we are never credited with it (the British mentality to self-deprecate). That 15-20% of F-35 development contribution was principally on the F-35B. Without British input, the F-35 would be a bigger aircraft (designed to fit in the elevator of Invincible-class) and the B variant is arguably British dependent to even have VTOL capabilities. It's ability as a navalised strike fighter would be a shadow of itself without British input. The C variant is a catastrophe. Next year on CSG 2025, we will deploy 24 on POW, which is more 5th Gen than the US can deploy on a single carrier ATM).

Turkey's TF-Kaan is 5th Gen and had its maiden flight a few months ago. It's buried for obvious propaganda purposes, but Putin a year or 2 ago was complaining about the fact that British military contractors (mainly BAe) have been involved in building the indigenous defence industry of Turkey. He named aircraft and armoured vehicles.

We won't be credited but Mojave has a RR engine and tested on POW. The US are heavily dependent on the UK in developing for the STOVL market (it can be flown from roads/helipads etc, more reliable/better sortie rare than CATOBAR, better sortie generation than CATO and supports almost all carriers).

Look at Sweden, Japan and Australia entering British partnerships now. Look at the cost/tech/innovation divergence between Turkey/India and Sweden/Japan/Australia.

We are the best country to procure/develop weapons with when Uncle Sam are being difficult.

Many of these countries are interested in the autonomous systems aspect of GCAP, even if they won't be allowed access to Tempest technology. The media conflate this with Tempest.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Damola3 »

Markam wrote: 31 May 2024, 19:00 Potential Tempest customers? Hmm.

I was thinking aside from Saudi Arabia/Arab states other strong candidates are Australia, Canada, Holland, Norway, Denmark, Greece, Poland, Austria, Turkey, Singapore etc as decent targets, and maybe some South American countries like Brazil, Mexico, Thailand, Malaysia and the Philippines will be pretty good economically in 2035.

I would have said Indonesia, but they are giving South Korea a pain in the ass.

Japan will have a big role in Australia and the other Asian potentials, while UK/Italy handle the rest.

I imagine India will be using their own jets only in 2035.
We developed a Twin Engine 5th Gen for Turkey (Kaan).

Tempest will be too expensive for most of these countries and I still think that selling the tech to certain countries will be problematic. I very much doubt that we would ever have even allowed SA on the project.

I think that this was politics playing by the UK and Italy to sell Saudi more Typhoons, knowing that Japan would say to to say that this is why they can't join the programme. The idea we would sell a 6th gen fighter to Saudi (industrially connected to China) is laughable. Japan NEED Tempest because of China.

I think that Tempest's per unit cost will still be too high for most air forces. The Anglosphere is where the money and Trust is. Type 23 is basically a British led UK/Australia/Canadian project. Australia now on AUKUS (may be expanded to Japan). No doubt that if Canada/Australia want anything with best in class firepower, they will jump on Type-83. Non-European Western nations with medium to large sized economies are where our natural market is because they don't have cutting edge defence sectors like we do and Uncle Sam will rightfully take all of the spoils.

Where the volume exports will be the drones and suite of autonomous systems to go with Tempest. Even though many countries are now developing indigenous aircraft, the complexity of these and their more limited budgets (other countries spread their budgets less thinly as they don't have nukes, develop SSBNs/SSNs, blue water navy etc) will lead them to import proven drones and autonomous systems. Even if you have good hardware/sensors, the software development can be a nightmare as LM are finding out.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Damola3 »

Spitfire9 wrote: 03 Jun 2024, 00:35
Ron5 wrote: 02 Jun 2024, 14:46 I'm very confident that no new countries will be joining GCAP as a development partner. There's no need and no time.
This would suggest otherwise:

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/air- ... ert-warns/

What was it I heard recently? Was it that 28 of 30 UK major military programmes were behind schedule or over cost?

I hope that the UK government demands that companies involved in GCAP raise their game a lot. The most ambitious development programmes are the most expensive. They need to be the best, most efficiently run. If UK plc is incapable of not falling far short of that, what useful purpose is served by it being in the business?
That was old news. The National Audit Office said last year that our programmes were overbudget by £1.67 Billion a year (£16.7 Bn) up to 2033.

With the new uplift to 2.5% of GDP, we will have an extra £10 Billion a year in 2030 which is 6x the previous annual deficit. Even if Labour cut this uplift, they obviously wouldn't create a brand new deficit.

Our SSBN renewal also ends when Tempest hits the production like. That costs 40% of the defence budget. We most likely will have nice excess to properly kit out our current plans in the 2030s.

For context, The Tories have cut taxes by £30 Billion a year since September/October. That's 5% of those tax cuts. The truth is that media declinism/defeatism and propaganda is the biggest issue to British competitiveness. We have world leading capabilities in many areas which can yield so much more with a little more funding.

France built Rafale on their own. The F-35 cost £55 Billion inflation adjusted to develop over approx a decade (we also contributed 10%). That's £5.5 Billion a year (under 1/5th of our latest tax cuts).

The amount of Britain hating in this country from media is absolutely insane, especially if you look via East Asian media for example. They will tell you that Turkey should have aircraft carriers but Britain shouldn't (too small and broke apparently).

The media love rehashing negative headlines against Britain (especially industrial capabilities) because it generates clicks. You wouldn't see the Russians or Chinese even go this far.

The reasons that projects get cut in the UK is because of defeatism, instability and lack of political will. If you accept the idea that it can't be done then there will always be a reason to cancel any project for any reason. This country needs more civic pride/belief. The truth is that much smaller economies with less experience in this arena are far more ambitious than we are. They would never allow such self-deprecation in their own countries.

China actually use Britain as an example in schools/universities as to why democracy fails. They point to the number of big/complex projects cancelled or half axed by the government such as HS2 (costs £4 Billion annually which is 7.5x times smaller than tax cuts), because of different governments chopping/changing scope and lacking political will.

Labour wanted to spend £28 Billion a year on a reindustrialisation plan (they backtracked because the Tories cut that in taxes). That's more than what the entire EU are spending on reindustrialisation and close to the entire US. Now even Italy are outspending us on onshoring semiconductor manufacturing, when we are the best chip designers in Europe.

Nobody should accept UK Gov curtailing the project. With the budgeted 2.5% of GDP, we have our equipment budget plugged and could fund the entire project on our own. Even if Labour curtail the uplift, we will have more than enough to fund our 40% of the project with our 2 partners. Money is not a seriously valid reason.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

Spitfire9 wrote: 03 Jun 2024, 00:35
Ron5 wrote: 02 Jun 2024, 14:46 I'm very confident that no new countries will be joining GCAP as a development partner. There's no need and no time.
This would suggest otherwise:

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/air- ... ert-warns/

What was it I heard recently? Was it that 28 of 30 UK major military programmes were behind schedule or over cost?

I hope that the UK government demands that companies involved in GCAP raise their game a lot.
A quote from some fellow in a think tank over a year ago.

There's no evidence that the rate of UK defence overspend is any worse than our peer group. If you look at the US in recent History - Littoral Combat Ship, the Constellation Class, the JSF itself in early days, Air Force One replacement, the KC46 tanker program.
Frankly I think the biggest problems in UK defence are lack of confidence to see the program through, combined with ever present Treasury meddling and the Boeing Lobby.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Ron5 »

Spitfire9 wrote: 03 Jun 2024, 00:35
Ron5 wrote: 02 Jun 2024, 14:46 I'm very confident that no new countries will be joining GCAP as a development partner. There's no need and no time.
This would suggest otherwise:

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/air- ... ert-warns/

What was it I heard recently? Was it that 28 of 30 UK major military programmes were behind schedule or over cost?

I hope that the UK government demands that companies involved in GCAP raise their game a lot. The most ambitious development programmes are the most expensive. They need to be the best, most efficiently run. If UK plc is incapable of not falling far short of that, what useful purpose is served by it being in the business?
You're quoting Justin Bronk who just left school and is totally in the pocket of US manufacturers. Follow his advice and there will be no British aerospace industry. Major tool.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Timmymagic »

Ron5 wrote: 03 Jun 2024, 13:30
You're quoting Justin Bronk who just left school and is totally in the pocket of US manufacturers. Follow his advice and there will be no British aerospace industry. Major tool.
I honestly don't get why some people are convinced that GCAP won't happen due to funding....but that SCAF is nailed on....

GCAP Partners GDP / Defence Budget
United Kingdom - $3.1 trillion / $74.9bn
Japan - $4.2 trillion / $50.2bn
Italy - $2 trillion / $35.5bn
Total - $9.3 trillion / $151.6bn

FCAS/SCAF Partners GDP / Defence Budget
Germany - $4 trillion / $66.8bn
France - $2.8 trillion / $61.3bn
Spain - $1.4 trillion / $23.7bn
Total - $8.2 trillion / $151.8bn

And to note that the GCAP partners have more defence spending on the way with the UK and Japan uplifts...German defence spending uplift is mainly going to be plugging holes for the next decade...
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by inch »

Don't know what difference to the funding total for fcas/scaffolding if Belgium joins ?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Markam »

Timmymagic wrote: 04 Jun 2024, 18:03
Ron5 wrote: 03 Jun 2024, 13:30
You're quoting Justin Bronk who just left school and is totally in the pocket of US manufacturers. Follow his advice and there will be no British aerospace industry. Major tool.
I honestly don't get why some people are convinced that GCAP won't happen due to funding....but that SCAF is nailed on....

GCAP Partners GDP / Defence Budget
United Kingdom - $3.1 trillion / $74.9bn
Japan - $4.2 trillion / $50.2bn
Italy - $2 trillion / $35.5bn
Total - $9.3 trillion / $151.6bn

FCAS/SCAF Partners GDP / Defence Budget
Germany - $4 trillion / $66.8bn
France - $2.8 trillion / $61.3bn
Spain - $1.4 trillion / $23.7bn
Total - $8.2 trillion / $151.8bn

And to note that the GCAP partners have more defence spending on the way with the UK and Japan uplifts...German defence spending uplift is mainly going to be plugging holes for the next decade...
I would also like to point out that Japan is in the process of increasing their military budget significantly, likely up to 2% ($84bn).

They are also extremely keen on this project working, and want UK companies/expertise to see it through where domestic companies will certainly fall shy, they will want to make this work. They overspent the last time they tried a domestic fighter (Mitsubishi F-2), all because they were dead set on a domestically produced fighter, even at higher cost to just buying F-16s.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Timmymagic »

inch wrote: 05 Jun 2024, 09:59 Don't know what difference to the funding total for fcas/scaffolding if Belgium joins ?
Don't think it would make a jot of difference....they'll barely be contributing anything. They're operating F-35 for the foreseeable.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Damola3 »

Markam wrote: 05 Jun 2024, 13:03
Timmymagic wrote: 04 Jun 2024, 18:03
Ron5 wrote: 03 Jun 2024, 13:30
You're quoting Justin Bronk who just left school and is totally in the pocket of US manufacturers. Follow his advice and there will be no British aerospace industry. Major tool.
I honestly don't get why some people are convinced that GCAP won't happen due to funding....but that SCAF is nailed on....

GCAP Partners GDP / Defence Budget
United Kingdom - $3.1 trillion / $74.9bn
Japan - $4.2 trillion / $50.2bn
Italy - $2 trillion / $35.5bn
Total - $9.3 trillion / $151.6bn

FCAS/SCAF Partners GDP / Defence Budget
Germany - $4 trillion / $66.8bn
France - $2.8 trillion / $61.3bn
Spain - $1.4 trillion / $23.7bn
Total - $8.2 trillion / $151.8bn

And to note that the GCAP partners have more defence spending on the way with the UK and Japan uplifts...German defence spending uplift is mainly going to be plugging holes for the next decade...
I would also like to point out that Japan is in the process of increasing their military budget significantly, likely up to 2% ($84bn).

They are also extremely keen on this project working, and want UK companies/expertise to see it through where domestic companies will certainly fall shy, they will want to make this work. They overspent the last time they tried a domestic fighter (Mitsubishi F-2), all because they were dead set on a domestically produced fighter, even at higher cost to just buying F-16s.
The F-2 was just a modified F-16 and most of the benefits went to Uncle Sam, who manufactured 40% of it. They basically got an overpriced, modified F-16 with inadequate technology transfer.

From a Japanese POV, they've hit the jackpot. They get UK BAe & Rolls-Royce expertise (who have been designing 5th gen engines & aircraft even since Typhoon on F-35, India, Turkey) and Leonardo who make the best sensors in Europe. They then get to keep the technology and a 40% workshare despite lacking the know how.

China at their rate of rearmament has created desperation on their side. It will be done by 2035. This is non-negotiable from a Japanese POV. We are well past the point of return.

I'm actually bullish in terms of future collaboration with Japan and Italy. Since Brexit, France and Germany have carved up the European defence industry between themselves and kicked out Italy. They didn't even discuss requirements for the MBT. They got sidelined then later approached as a customer.

The Western defence industry 100% needs Italy and Leonardo in particular. It isn't just about money people forget, but also capability and know how. Without the UK and Italy, any French and German project from now won't have Europe's best sensors or engines.
I would also like to point out that Japan is in the process of increasing their military budget significantly, likely up to 2% ($84bn).
Us at 2.5% is $81 Billion. Japan don't have SSBNs either. That's going to be a very big conventional capability. I can forsee them jumping on our naval platforms as well.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

Ron5 wrote: 03 Jun 2024, 13:30
Spitfire9 wrote: 03 Jun 2024, 00:35
Ron5 wrote: 02 Jun 2024, 14:46 I'm very confident that no new countries will be joining GCAP as a development partner. There's no need and no time.
This would suggest otherwise:

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/air- ... ert-warns/

What was it I heard recently? Was it that 28 of 30 UK major military programmes were behind schedule or over cost?

I hope that the UK government demands that companies involved in GCAP raise their game a lot. The most ambitious development programmes are the most expensive. They need to be the best, most efficiently run. If UK plc is incapable of not falling far short of that, what useful purpose is served by it being in the business?
You're quoting Justin Bronk who just left school and is totally in the pocket of US manufacturers. Follow his advice and there will be no British aerospace industry. Major tool.
But Bronk was spot on about Ukraine equipping themselves with Gripen...

/end_sarc
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Spitfire9 »

SD67 wrote: 05 Jun 2024, 15:16
Ron5 wrote: 03 Jun 2024, 13:30
Spitfire9 wrote: 03 Jun 2024, 00:35
Ron5 wrote: 02 Jun 2024, 14:46 I'm very confident that no new countries will be joining GCAP as a development partner. There's no need and no time.
This would suggest otherwise:

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/air- ... ert-warns/

What was it I heard recently? Was it that 28 of 30 UK major military programmes were behind schedule or over cost?

I hope that the UK government demands that companies involved in GCAP raise their game a lot. The most ambitious development programmes are the most expensive. They need to be the best, most efficiently run. If UK plc is incapable of not falling far short of that, what useful purpose is served by it being in the business?
You're quoting Justin Bronk who just left school and is totally in the pocket of US manufacturers. Follow his advice and there will be no British aerospace industry. Major tool.
But Bronk was spot on about Ukraine equipping themselves with Gripen...

/end_sarc
1 Unless Shepherd made it up, the article was written 'by Norbert Neumann in London'. Are you saying that it not the case?
2 I think the question about 28 out of 30 MOD projects being late/going over budget arose from my reading about a parliamentary committee review.

Having checked since writing the above, here it is, so whatever my source was, it was accurate:

'20. Only two of the 46 MoD equipment projects that are included in the Government Major Projects Portfolio (GMPP) are rated as being highly likely to be delivered to time, budget and quality (green).60 '

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/c ... #heading-3

3 My desire for the UK defence sector to improve performance does not stem from reading anyone else's desire for the same.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Spitfire9 »

As an addition to my post above, I noted in reading the parliamentary report that there was a funding problem identified in the 2023-2033 equipment plan. I do not recall any other poster other than myself talking about improving performance ie getting more bangs per buck (thus reducing funding problems). Other posters seem to talk only of getting more bucks. Such a defeatist attitude saps our military strength. I don't accept that approach.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by tomuk »

Spitfire9 wrote: 06 Jun 2024, 00:34 As an addition to my post above, I noted in reading the parliamentary report that there was a funding problem identified in the 2023-2033 equipment plan. I do not recall any other poster other than myself talking about improving performance ie getting more bangs per buck (thus reducing funding problems). Other posters seem to talk only of getting more bucks. Such a defeatist attitude saps our military strength. I don't accept that approach.
It's not a defeatist attitude it is realistic one. Lots of the problems are down to too little funding being spread too thinly. Time and time again projects are cutback or delayed to keep spending within an agreed annual cash budget without any real consideration of how much it adds to the overall cost. T26 built slowly to keep in a annual cash budget despite it costing more overall.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

The 10 year equipment plan is around 280 billion, of which around 12bn is directly Tempest/GCAP. Less than Armoured vehicles, digital, and only slightly higher than helicopters.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Spitfire9 »

SD67 wrote: 06 Jun 2024, 08:54 The 10 year equipment plan is around 280 billion, of which around 12bn is directly Tempest/GCAP. Less than Armoured vehicles, digital, and only slightly higher than helicopters.
12bn sounds like a bargain for UK share of project costs to 2033 if this this covers all Tempest development including setting up for production.

I remain concerned that over 90% of major MOD programmes are projected to fail to meet cost, time and quality targets. The way things are managed at the moment, should we rate GCAP as over 90% likely to fail to meet cost, time and quality targets? I think so and think reducing that risk must be addressed before GCAP is launched.

If the way projects are run results in 90% failure to achieve targets, it is mighty stupid to expect further projects to succeed if you do not change the way you do things.

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