General UK Defence Discussion

For everything else UK defence-related that doesn't fit into any of the sections above.
Caribbean
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by Caribbean »

bobp wrote: 24 Apr 2024, 09:24 Where is the money coming from to pay for increased defence spending after cutting National Insurance by 4 percent. Also is the money for Ukraine coming from the defence budget or foreign aid.
I confess I haven't been keeping up over the last week or so, but aren't they trying to take money from benefits, not increase tax allowances for the next 5 years AND also trim most departmental budgets?

Edit: And, of course, GDP is forecast to rise from £2.78t to £3.48t over the same period (c. 25%), which means that Government tax take will rise by a similar percentage.
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mrclark303
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by mrclark303 »

bobp wrote: 24 Apr 2024, 09:24 Where is the money coming from to pay for increased defence spending after cutting National Insurance by 4 percent. Also is the money for Ukraine coming from the defence budget or foreign aid.
If we are looking for pennies behind the sofa, then there's billions a year frittered away in the NHS through
waste and it's huge administration, the vast welfare budget, i.e paying hundreds of thousands pensioners who live in southern Span and and the Carribbean £600 a year heating allowance, billions in benefit fraud etc....

While we are at it, defence spending needs to be spent more carefully too, stop gold plating requirements and buy smarter.....

Actually sort out the leaking bucket of government spending and you can more than find the defence investment needed.

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mrclark303
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

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Caribbean wrote: 24 Apr 2024, 09:27
bobp wrote: 24 Apr 2024, 09:24 Where is the money coming from to pay for increased defence spending after cutting National Insurance by 4 percent. Also is the money for Ukraine coming from the defence budget or foreign aid.
I confess I haven't been keeping up over the last week or so, but aren't they trying to take money from benefits, not increase tax allowances for the next 5 years AND also trim most departmental budgets?

Edit: And, of course, GDP is forecast to rise from £2.78t to £3.48t over the same period (c. 25%), which means that Government tax take will rise by a similar percentage.
Alas, Labour will just cancel it anyway.....

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Ian Hall
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

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bobp
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by bobp »

mrclark303 wrote: 24 Apr 2024, 10:02
bobp wrote: 24 Apr 2024, 09:24 Where is the money coming from to pay for increased defence spending after cutting National Insurance by 4 percent. Also is the money for Ukraine coming from the defence budget or foreign aid.
If we are looking for pennies behind the sofa, then there's billions a year frittered away in the NHS through
waste and it's huge administration, the vast welfare budget, i.e paying hundreds of thousands pensioners who live in southern Span and and the Carribbean £600 a year heating allowance, billions in benefit fraud etc....

While we are at it, defence spending needs to be spent more carefully too, stop gold plating requirements and buy smarter.....

Actually sort out the leaking bucket of government spending and you can more than find the defence investment needed.
Never realised that pensioners in far off lands got heating allowance. It normally is 200 pounds but more recently has been 600. As a pensioner its very welcome here in the UK with the massive rise in utilities etc. They should also stop the 10 pound xmas bonus which is worthless.

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mrclark303
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by mrclark303 »

bobp wrote: 24 Apr 2024, 12:09
mrclark303 wrote: 24 Apr 2024, 10:02
bobp wrote: 24 Apr 2024, 09:24 Where is the money coming from to pay for increased defence spending after cutting National Insurance by 4 percent. Also is the money for Ukraine coming from the defence budget or foreign aid.
If we are looking for pennies behind the sofa, then there's billions a year frittered away in the NHS through
waste and it's huge administration, the vast welfare budget, i.e paying hundreds of thousands pensioners who live in southern Span and and the Carribbean £600 a year heating allowance, billions in benefit fraud etc....

While we are at it, defence spending needs to be spent more carefully too, stop gold plating requirements and buy smarter.....

Actually sort out the leaking bucket of government spending and you can more than find the defence investment needed.
Never realised that pensioners in far off lands got heating allowance. It normally is 200 pounds but more recently has been 600. As a pensioner its very welcome here in the UK with the massive rise in utilities etc. They should also stop the 10 pound xmas bonus which is worthless.
The government 'loose' 10's of billions a year though very badly run public services.

Considering the vast duplication of Command structures that exist in our highly dysfunctional Police forces, every country having it's own HQ, support force, chief of police and all the infrastructure that comes with supporting a unique and individual force area.

It's like having a separate Army for each county!

Do away with it, have a Police service of England, with one chief of police and smaller regional HQ's.

Cull the vast duplication of unnecessary infrastructure and streamline the whole thing.

I bet you could save billions a year right there!

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Tempest414
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by Tempest414 »

mrclark303 wrote: 24 Apr 2024, 12:30
bobp wrote: 24 Apr 2024, 12:09
mrclark303 wrote: 24 Apr 2024, 10:02
bobp wrote: 24 Apr 2024, 09:24 Where is the money coming from to pay for increased defence spending after cutting National Insurance by 4 percent. Also is the money for Ukraine coming from the defence budget or foreign aid.
If we are looking for pennies behind the sofa, then there's billions a year frittered away in the NHS through
waste and it's huge administration, the vast welfare budget, i.e paying hundreds of thousands pensioners who live in southern Span and and the Carribbean £600 a year heating allowance, billions in benefit fraud etc....

While we are at it, defence spending needs to be spent more carefully too, stop gold plating requirements and buy smarter.....

Actually sort out the leaking bucket of government spending and you can more than find the defence investment needed.
Never realised that pensioners in far off lands got heating allowance. It normally is 200 pounds but more recently has been 600. As a pensioner its very welcome here in the UK with the massive rise in utilities etc. They should also stop the 10 pound xmas bonus which is worthless.
The government 'loose' 10's of billions a year though very badly run public services.

Considering the vast duplication of Command structures that exist in our highly dysfunctional Police forces, every country having it's own HQ, support force, chief of police and all the infrastructure that comes with supporting a unique and individual force area.

It's like having a separate Army for each county!

Do away with it, have a Police service of England, with one chief of police and smaller regional HQ's.

Cull the vast duplication of unnecessary infrastructure and streamline the whole thing.

I bet you could save billions a year right there!
We might not see eye to eye on the NHS but I have said the same thing about it we have 217 NHS trusts in England all do different things buying different drugs form different places we need to have a better system

However as said before the UK tax payer needs to stop giving privet companies massive handout and tax brakes
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bobp
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by bobp »

Tempest414 wrote: 24 Apr 2024, 15:29
mrclark303 wrote: 24 Apr 2024, 12:30
bobp wrote: 24 Apr 2024, 12:09
mrclark303 wrote: 24 Apr 2024, 10:02
bobp wrote: 24 Apr 2024, 09:24 Where is the money coming from to pay for increased defence spending after cutting National Insurance by 4 percent. Also is the money for Ukraine coming from the defence budget or foreign aid.
If we are looking for pennies behind the sofa, then there's billions a year frittered away in the NHS through
waste and it's huge administration, the vast welfare budget, i.e paying hundreds of thousands pensioners who live in southern Span and and the Carribbean £600 a year heating allowance, billions in benefit fraud etc....

While we are at it, defence spending needs to be spent more carefully too, stop gold plating requirements and buy smarter.....

Actually sort out the leaking bucket of government spending and you can more than find the defence investment needed.
Never realised that pensioners in far off lands got heating allowance. It normally is 200 pounds but more recently has been 600. As a pensioner its very welcome here in the UK with the massive rise in utilities etc. They should also stop the 10 pound xmas bonus which is worthless.
The government 'loose' 10's of billions a year though very badly run public services.

Considering the vast duplication of Command structures that exist in our highly dysfunctional Police forces, every country having it's own HQ, support force, chief of police and all the infrastructure that comes with supporting a unique and individual force area.

It's like having a separate Army for each county!

Do away with it, have a Police service of England, with one chief of police and smaller regional HQ's.

Cull the vast duplication of unnecessary infrastructure and streamline the whole thing.

I bet you could save billions a year right there!
We might not see eye to eye on the NHS but I have said the same thing about it we have 217 NHS trusts in England all do different things buying different drugs form different places we need to have a better system

However as said before the UK tax payer needs to stop giving privet companies massive handout and tax brakes
A lot of skilled jobs within the Armed Services have gone to private companies. Also look at how the housing for married and single were screwed up by privatisation. Yes there are savings to be made all over.

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Ian Hall
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

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2HeadsBetter
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

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Absolutely spot on SW1 - retention and recruitment are the biggest challenges facing all 3 services right now not comrade Putin or chairman whatsisname. Would love to see more P8s, more frigates, more Challengers et al but pointless if they're all just parked in a shed.
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Jdam
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by Jdam »

Isn't the recruitment a Capita problem? (I think thats the contractor name) we hear stories of people waiting year to be able to join but giving up as it takes that long.

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mrclark303
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by mrclark303 »

Tempest414 wrote: 24 Apr 2024, 15:29
mrclark303 wrote: 24 Apr 2024, 12:30
bobp wrote: 24 Apr 2024, 12:09
mrclark303 wrote: 24 Apr 2024, 10:02
bobp wrote: 24 Apr 2024, 09:24 Where is the money coming from to pay for increased defence spending after cutting National Insurance by 4 percent. Also is the money for Ukraine coming from the defence budget or foreign aid.
If we are looking for pennies behind the sofa, then there's billions a year frittered away in the NHS through
waste and it's huge administration, the vast welfare budget, i.e paying hundreds of thousands pensioners who live in southern Span and and the Carribbean £600 a year heating allowance, billions in benefit fraud etc....

While we are at it, defence spending needs to be spent more carefully too, stop gold plating requirements and buy smarter.....

Actually sort out the leaking bucket of government spending and you can more than find the defence investment needed.
Never realised that pensioners in far off lands got heating allowance. It normally is 200 pounds but more recently has been 600. As a pensioner its very welcome here in the UK with the massive rise in utilities etc. They should also stop the 10 pound xmas bonus which is worthless.
The government 'loose' 10's of billions a year though very badly run public services.

Considering the vast duplication of Command structures that exist in our highly dysfunctional Police forces, every country having it's own HQ, support force, chief of police and all the infrastructure that comes with supporting a unique and individual force area.

It's like having a separate Army for each county!

Do away with it, have a Police service of England, with one chief of police and smaller regional HQ's.

Cull the vast duplication of unnecessary infrastructure and streamline the whole thing.

I bet you could save billions a year right there!
We might not see eye to eye on the NHS but I have said the same thing about it we have 217 NHS trusts in England all do different things buying different drugs form different places we need to have a better system

However as said before the UK tax payer needs to stop giving privet companies massive handout and tax brakes
That's a good point. When you consider the enormous and unnecessary duplication of effort that comes of running all these different police forces and NHS Trusts, you would without doubt save a lot of money.

No party has the guts to seriously reform these public services.

The Tories are incapable of stopping rubber boats crossing the channel, never mind anything else.

The incoming Labour government most certainly won't, they will always tiptoe around the huge public service Unions, as they won't want to upset their paymasters.

SW1
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

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bobp
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by bobp »

Defence boost may not be as big as we think...

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Caribbean
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by Caribbean »

Hmm. Something that always puzzles me is the claim that £61b is spent on Defence, when, if you look at the figures in the Budget, it's actually £32.1b.

It seems that a lot is classed as "Defence" that may not be directly to the benefit of the forces.

The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by tomuk »

Caribbean wrote: 28 Apr 2024, 19:07 Hmm. Something that always puzzles me is the claim that £61b is spent on Defence, when, if you look at the figures in the Budget, it's actually £32.1b.

It seems that a lot is classed as "Defence" that may not be directly to the benefit of the forces.

That's RDEL, day to day spending so ignores CDEL capital expenditure which is high in MOD, and any AME like pensions. here is an grphic for 2021/2022
Image
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serge750
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by serge750 »

Caught some of the debate from the 25 April,. all the asslicking & bluster from the blue MP's saying how wonderful etc, "with the uplift we could buy 11 QEC ! but we are not going to" made me giggle
Just enough to keep things on track & increase stockpiles, bit of RnD & help fund Ukraine
Smoke & mirrors come to mind ! but, better than to continue the decline of unfunded projects & having to rob Peter to pay Paul ! a lot of it will probably go on 10k staff redundancy payments though....

topman
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

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tomuk
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by tomuk »

topman wrote: 06 May 2024, 20:12 https://www.kcl.ac.uk/news/landmark-rep ... ommodation


Still lots to do in housing.
Yes we all already know there is. This is just another 'independent' report, commissioned by the shadow defence secretary John Healey, adding to the plentiful extant evidence.

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Ian Hall
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

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bobp
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by bobp »

2HeadsBetter wrote: 24 Apr 2024, 17:19 Absolutely spot on SW1 - retention and recruitment are the biggest challenges facing all 3 services right now not comrade Putin or chairman whatsisname. Would love to see more P8s, more frigates, more Challengers et al but pointless if they're all just parked in a shed.


I suspect that once the “black hole” is filled and the needed money is spent on wages/facilities to stop the recruitment/retention crisis there‘ll be very little of the increase to 2.5%GDP left for new kit. Ukraine is also draining defence budget.
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by Repulse »

bobp wrote: 11 May 2024, 20:10
2HeadsBetter wrote: 24 Apr 2024, 17:19 Absolutely spot on SW1 - retention and recruitment are the biggest challenges facing all 3 services right now not comrade Putin or chairman whatsisname. Would love to see more P8s, more frigates, more Challengers et al but pointless if they're all just parked in a shed.
I suspect that once the “black hole” is filled and the needed money is spent on wages/facilities to stop the recruitment/retention crisis there‘ll be very little of the increase to 2.5%GDP left for new kit. Ukraine is also draining defence budget.
Absolutely agree, would also add just throwing money at the problem isn’t the full answer. A review and adaptation of operating assumptions and some “efficiency” driven initiatives to operate with fewer numbers per platform and deployment tempos will need to change also.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

bobp
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by bobp »

Repulse wrote: 12 May 2024, 08:32
bobp wrote: 11 May 2024, 20:10
2HeadsBetter wrote: 24 Apr 2024, 17:19 Absolutely spot on SW1 - retention and recruitment are the biggest challenges facing all 3 services right now not comrade Putin or chairman whatsisname. Would love to see more P8s, more frigates, more Challengers et al but pointless if they're all just parked in a shed.
I suspect that once the “black hole” is filled and the needed money is spent on wages/facilities to stop the recruitment/retention crisis there‘ll be very little of the increase to 2.5%GDP left for new kit. Ukraine is also draining defence budget.
Absolutely agree, would also add just throwing money at the problem isn’t the full answer. A review and adaptation of operating assumptions and some “efficiency” driven initiatives to operate with fewer numbers per platform and deployment tempos will need to change also.
As we have seen in the current conflict, adequate reserves of ammunition is essential as well.
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tomuk
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by tomuk »

Repulse wrote: 12 May 2024, 08:32
bobp wrote: 11 May 2024, 20:10
2HeadsBetter wrote: 24 Apr 2024, 17:19 Absolutely spot on SW1 - retention and recruitment are the biggest challenges facing all 3 services right now not comrade Putin or chairman whatsisname. Would love to see more P8s, more frigates, more Challengers et al but pointless if they're all just parked in a shed.
I suspect that once the “black hole” is filled and the needed money is spent on wages/facilities to stop the recruitment/retention crisis there‘ll be very little of the increase to 2.5%GDP left for new kit. Ukraine is also draining defence budget.
Absolutely agree, would also add just throwing money at the problem isn’t the full answer. A review and adaptation of operating assumptions and some “efficiency” driven initiatives to operate with fewer numbers per platform and deployment tempos will need to change also.
I think said efficiencies have already been made. As of yesterday only two T45 are at sea for example. And based on testimony at the select committee when Dauntless was deployed to the Caribbean she was only carrying sufficient crew to carry out the required low level tasklines, if a higher tempo requirement was needed to be met additional trained and cleared crew would have been flown out to her.
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Markam
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by Markam »

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/art ... ce-systems

US Defense Contractor having a go at us over air defense.

Not wrong but we should develop something locally in unison with our naval development for Type 83.
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