Ground Based Air Defence

Contains threads on British Army equipment of the past, present and future.
S M H
Member
Posts: 434
Joined: 03 May 2015, 12:59
United Kingdom

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by S M H »

The removal of blood hound with out replacement is coming to bite use in the arse. As political class of the country have been defence blind.
These users liked the author S M H for the post (total 3):
SW1serge750Repulse

tomuk
Senior Member
Posts: 1734
Joined: 20 Dec 2017, 20:24
United Kingdom

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by tomuk »

Repulse wrote: 21 Apr 2024, 09:58
SW1 wrote: 21 Apr 2024, 09:34 Does the arrow(missile) and the sensor need to be co-located for ballistic missile defence?
No, this is where technologies like CEC come into play.

The UK is an island so a base land capability enhanced when needed by a mobile platforms that can also be used in other regions is critical. That’s more tier one AAW destroyers, AEW aircraft, interceptor jets and mobile land based launchers / sensors. This is a priority alongside area denial (especially ASW) capabilities.
Land based doesn't mean it has to be fixed, a land based but mobile solution would be useful for Army.
These users liked the author tomuk for the post:
SW1

tomuk
Senior Member
Posts: 1734
Joined: 20 Dec 2017, 20:24
United Kingdom

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by tomuk »

Caribbean wrote: 21 Apr 2024, 12:46 We are supposed to be part of the European Sky Sheild initiative, based on
  • Medium range: primarily IRIS-T SLM
    Long range: MIM-104 Patriot
    Very long range (exoatmospheric): Arrow 3
Though presumably, we might opt for SAMP-T (Aster 30) or CAMM-MR in place of Patriot and CAMM/CAMM-ER in place of IRIS-T SLM

We did get authorisation from the US to purchase a Ballistic Missile Radar & Control system a couple of years ago, for around $700m. I don't know whether it went ahead, but the planned in-service date was 2029
The programme is biased towards US and German interests and completely ignores ours, France and Italy's interests through MBDA.
These users liked the author tomuk for the post:
SD67

tomuk
Senior Member
Posts: 1734
Joined: 20 Dec 2017, 20:24
United Kingdom

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by tomuk »

Repulse wrote: 21 Apr 2024, 10:38
SW1 wrote: 21 Apr 2024, 10:28
Repulse wrote: 21 Apr 2024, 10:15
SW1 wrote: 21 Apr 2024, 10:10
Repulse wrote: 21 Apr 2024, 09:58
SW1 wrote: 21 Apr 2024, 09:34 Does the arrow(missile) and the sensor need to be co-located for ballistic missile defence?
No, this is where technologies like CEC come into play.

The UK is an island so a base land capability enhanced when needed by a mobile platforms that can also be used in other regions is critical. That’s more tier one AAW destroyers, AEW aircraft, interceptor jets and mobile land based launchers / sensors. This is a priority alongside area denial (especially ASW) capabilities.
So you could have radar sites like say flyingdales on land do the tracking and launcher sites elsewhere on land or sea?
I would have a mixture of land and sea based radar sites, though when tensions are high also assume a level of AEW aircraft in the air also. Would assume mobile launcher sites would be the most effective setup.
So in the context of uk mainland defence if a ship had the ability to simply launch an sm3 type missile then the radar track and command could be done elsewhere and the ship is basically a remote launcher site with a datalink.
Of course, but this is only one model - we should be looking at mobile radars also. The point being that we can adjust our response to the threat level and location, not only for the UK but BOTs such as Cyprus and also supporting allies. There will be cases where the radar and launcher are most efficiently based on the same platform, hence why the evolution of the T45s and ensuring the T83s are top tier is important.
If Cyprus is important than why would you not have a land based solution, the Cypriot government themselves have already decided and have started to implement a decision to buy Iron Dome.

RunningStrong
Senior Member
Posts: 1384
Joined: 06 May 2015, 20:52

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by RunningStrong »

Timmymagic wrote: 21 Apr 2024, 12:56
RunningStrong wrote: 20 Apr 2024, 20:41
Timmymagic wrote: 20 Apr 2024, 10:21 It wouldn't be the first time that a naming convention goes awry...

MBDA Spear being called Spear 3 is the most obvious example...
It's just a yet to be named missile system that currently rests on the programme name. Just like FC/ASW will probably get a catchy name when it enters service, but was Spear 5.
It has a name...its MBDA Spear...

Has done for years...since it won the competition...

https://www.mbda-systems.com/product/spear/
Just like FRES became Scout became AJAX...

And Ocelot became Foxhound.

It won't enter service as Spear.

Repulse
Donator
Posts: 4842
Joined: 05 May 2015, 22:46
United Kingdom

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Repulse »

tomuk wrote: 21 Apr 2024, 16:51
Repulse wrote: 21 Apr 2024, 09:58
SW1 wrote: 21 Apr 2024, 09:34 Does the arrow(missile) and the sensor need to be co-located for ballistic missile defence?
No, this is where technologies like CEC come into play.

The UK is an island so a base land capability enhanced when needed by a mobile platforms that can also be used in other regions is critical. That’s more tier one AAW destroyers, AEW aircraft, interceptor jets and mobile land based launchers / sensors. This is a priority alongside area denial (especially ASW) capabilities.
Land based doesn't mean it has to be fixed, a land based but mobile solution would be useful for Army.
Did you read what I wrote? “mobile land based launchers / sensors”
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

Repulse
Donator
Posts: 4842
Joined: 05 May 2015, 22:46
United Kingdom

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Repulse »

tomuk wrote: 21 Apr 2024, 16:59
Repulse wrote: 21 Apr 2024, 10:38 Of course, but this is only one model - we should be looking at mobile radars also. The point being that we can adjust our response to the threat level and location, not only for the UK but BOTs such as Cyprus and also supporting allies. There will be cases where the radar and launcher are most efficiently based on the same platform, hence why the evolution of the T45s and ensuring the T83s are top tier is important.
If Cyprus is important than why would you not have a land based solution, the Cypriot government themselves have already decided and have started to implement a decision to buy Iron Dome.
I never said that Cyprus shouldn’t have a land based solution - if you bothered to read my posts I’ve said clearly we should have platforms across all domains, and that mobile platforms should be part of this.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

tomuk
Senior Member
Posts: 1734
Joined: 20 Dec 2017, 20:24
United Kingdom

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by tomuk »

Repulse wrote: 21 Apr 2024, 19:38
tomuk wrote: 21 Apr 2024, 16:59
Repulse wrote: 21 Apr 2024, 10:38 Of course, but this is only one model - we should be looking at mobile radars also. The point being that we can adjust our response to the threat level and location, not only for the UK but BOTs such as Cyprus and also supporting allies. There will be cases where the radar and launcher are most efficiently based on the same platform, hence why the evolution of the T45s and ensuring the T83s are top tier is important.
If Cyprus is important than why would you not have a land based solution, the Cypriot government themselves have already decided and have started to implement a decision to buy Iron Dome.
I never said that Cyprus shouldn’t have a land based solution - if you bothered to read my posts I’ve said clearly we should have platforms across all domains, and that mobile platforms should be part of this.
So why make the point about T45 and T83 being important. Your ports clearly show a naval bias.

Repulse
Donator
Posts: 4842
Joined: 05 May 2015, 22:46
United Kingdom

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Repulse »

tomuk wrote: 21 Apr 2024, 23:35
Repulse wrote: 21 Apr 2024, 19:38
tomuk wrote: 21 Apr 2024, 16:59
Repulse wrote: 21 Apr 2024, 10:38 Of course, but this is only one model - we should be looking at mobile radars also. The point being that we can adjust our response to the threat level and location, not only for the UK but BOTs such as Cyprus and also supporting allies. There will be cases where the radar and launcher are most efficiently based on the same platform, hence why the evolution of the T45s and ensuring the T83s are top tier is important.
If Cyprus is important than why would you not have a land based solution, the Cypriot government themselves have already decided and have started to implement a decision to buy Iron Dome.
I never said that Cyprus shouldn’t have a land based solution - if you bothered to read my posts I’ve said clearly we should have platforms across all domains, and that mobile platforms should be part of this.
So why make the point about T45 and T83 being important. Your ports clearly show a naval bias.
Because they are a key part. It’s is relevant because everyone is agreed on the need for the other platforms but the is a sea blindness here by you and others who are happy to spend money on kit that is not needed and are making gaps like this worse.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5687
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Tempest414 »

For me if we can take the Falklands as a case I would like to see a CAMM battery on MP airfield and a land based Type 45 system with Aster 30 on Mount Adam West Falklands

we also need to be thinking hard about the low end and for me we need to be looking a 6 round rapid ranger system with a 25 or 30mm gun and maybe even lower than that something like RWS mounted GAU-19

Online
Timmymagic
Donator
Posts: 3314
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
United Kingdom

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Timmymagic »

Tempest414 wrote: 22 Apr 2024, 11:08 For me if we can take the Falklands as a case I would like to see a CAMM battery on MP airfield and a land based Type 45 system with Aster 30 on Mount Adam West Falklands
Why though? CAMM, with CAMM-ER in the near future and (hopefully) CAMM-MR in the early 2030's is more than capable of dealing with any threat down there. A land based MISC system is hugely expensive. The only justification for one would be to protect parts of mainland UK like Faslane, Fylingdales or London...
Tempest414 wrote: 22 Apr 2024, 11:08 we also need to be thinking hard about the low end and for me we need to be looking a 6 round rapid ranger system with a 25 or 30mm gun and maybe even lower than that something like RWS mounted GAU-19
There does need to be a solution in the very near future that will protect CAMM batteries from lower tier threats, like loitering munitions. An easy, UK based solution, is the MSI Terrahawk Paladin. Like CAMM its hook lift rack based and can be carried on the same MAN SV, it uses a weapons mount and gun that the UK are very familiar with, its UK built and could also incorporate elements of the Blighter AUDS (the RF interuptor) and a 2 x 4 round Starstreak/LMM launcher if we upgraded the mount. It's pretty much perfect for our needs.
These users liked the author Timmymagic for the post:
new guy

tomuk
Senior Member
Posts: 1734
Joined: 20 Dec 2017, 20:24
United Kingdom

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by tomuk »

Repulse wrote: 22 Apr 2024, 07:50
tomuk wrote: 21 Apr 2024, 23:35
Repulse wrote: 21 Apr 2024, 19:38
tomuk wrote: 21 Apr 2024, 16:59
Repulse wrote: 21 Apr 2024, 10:38 Of course, but this is only one model - we should be looking at mobile radars also. The point being that we can adjust our response to the threat level and location, not only for the UK but BOTs such as Cyprus and also supporting allies. There will be cases where the radar and launcher are most efficiently based on the same platform, hence why the evolution of the T45s and ensuring the T83s are top tier is important.
If Cyprus is important than why would you not have a land based solution, the Cypriot government themselves have already decided and have started to implement a decision to buy Iron Dome.
I never said that Cyprus shouldn’t have a land based solution - if you bothered to read my posts I’ve said clearly we should have platforms across all domains, and that mobile platforms should be part of this.
So why make the point about T45 and T83 being important. Your ports clearly show a naval bias.
Because they are a key part. It’s is relevant because everyone is agreed on the need for the other platforms but the is a sea blindness here by you and others who are happy to spend money on kit that is not needed and are making gaps like this worse.
What kit isn't needed? Oh might you be suggesting T31? Give it a rest. Or are you going to ruin another thread with your dribble.
We are discussing ground based air defence. Does RN need BMD defence yes the path to that at a tactical level appears to be Aster 30 Block 1 NT.
How about some more Land Ceptor at key installations or maybe some SAMP/T or even some Israeli Arrow.
These users liked the author tomuk for the post:
new guy

tomuk
Senior Member
Posts: 1734
Joined: 20 Dec 2017, 20:24
United Kingdom

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by tomuk »

Tempest414 wrote: 22 Apr 2024, 11:08 For me if we can take the Falklands as a case I would like to see a CAMM battery on MP airfield and a land based Type 45 system with Aster 30 on Mount Adam West Falklands

we also need to be thinking hard about the low end and for me we need to be looking a 6 round rapid ranger system with a 25 or 30mm gun and maybe even lower than that something like RWS mounted GAU-19
There is a CAMM battery on the Falklands and it more than enough to protect a few thousand sheep. It doesn't need anymore protection.

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5687
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Tempest414 »

tomuk wrote: 22 Apr 2024, 17:06
Tempest414 wrote: 22 Apr 2024, 11:08 For me if we can take the Falklands as a case I would like to see a CAMM battery on MP airfield and a land based Type 45 system with Aster 30 on Mount Adam West Falklands

we also need to be thinking hard about the low end and for me we need to be looking a 6 round rapid ranger system with a 25 or 30mm gun and maybe even lower than that something like RWS mounted GAU-19
There is a CAMM battery on the Falklands and it more than enough to protect a few thousand sheep. It doesn't need anymore protection.
Glad your so fucking sure

tomuk
Senior Member
Posts: 1734
Joined: 20 Dec 2017, 20:24
United Kingdom

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by tomuk »

Tempest414 wrote: 22 Apr 2024, 17:25
tomuk wrote: 22 Apr 2024, 17:06
Tempest414 wrote: 22 Apr 2024, 11:08 For me if we can take the Falklands as a case I would like to see a CAMM battery on MP airfield and a land based Type 45 system with Aster 30 on Mount Adam West Falklands

we also need to be thinking hard about the low end and for me we need to be looking a 6 round rapid ranger system with a 25 or 30mm gun and maybe even lower than that something like RWS mounted GAU-19
There is a CAMM battery on the Falklands and it more than enough to protect a few thousand sheep. It doesn't need anymore protection.
Glad your so fucking sure
Of what? That Argentina isn't going to try and invade tomorrow? What is the current order of battle of the Argentine forces?

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5687
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Tempest414 »

tomuk wrote: 22 Apr 2024, 17:36
Tempest414 wrote: 22 Apr 2024, 17:25
tomuk wrote: 22 Apr 2024, 17:06
Tempest414 wrote: 22 Apr 2024, 11:08 For me if we can take the Falklands as a case I would like to see a CAMM battery on MP airfield and a land based Type 45 system with Aster 30 on Mount Adam West Falklands

we also need to be thinking hard about the low end and for me we need to be looking a 6 round rapid ranger system with a 25 or 30mm gun and maybe even lower than that something like RWS mounted GAU-19
There is a CAMM battery on the Falklands and it more than enough to protect a few thousand sheep. It doesn't need anymore protection.
Glad your so fucking sure
Of what? That Argentina isn't going to try and invade tomorrow? What is the current order of battle of the Argentine forces?
Tomorrow is not the problem maybe not 10 years time maybe not even Argentina. Yes 24 F-16's is not going to move the dial anytime soon or at anytime but Argentina could do a deal with say China years from now and rearm over a short time frame I am sure China would love a Air and naval base in the South Atlantic

I am not saying any of this will happen the main thing for me is a long range radar on Mount Adam as in today battles any first wave attack will be drones and BM's to degrade defences

What we have seen twice now in Israel is high volume low tec attacks to deplete missile defences followed by slightly higher tec BM's getting though

RunningStrong
Senior Member
Posts: 1384
Joined: 06 May 2015, 20:52

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by RunningStrong »

Tempest414 wrote: 23 Apr 2024, 08:54 I am not saying any of this will happen the main thing for me is a long range radar on Mount Adam as in today battles any first wave attack will be drones and BM's to degrade defences

What we have seen twice now in Israel is high volume low tec attacks to deplete missile defences followed by slightly higher tec BM's getting though
But at 300 miles off the coast of Argentina I don't think the Argies are much of a UAS threat. Obviously any SRBM threat would be considered an escalation.

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5687
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Tempest414 »

RunningStrong wrote: 23 Apr 2024, 09:34
Tempest414 wrote: 23 Apr 2024, 08:54 I am not saying any of this will happen the main thing for me is a long range radar on Mount Adam as in today battles any first wave attack will be drones and BM's to degrade defences

What we have seen twice now in Israel is high volume low tec attacks to deplete missile defences followed by slightly higher tec BM's getting though
But at 300 miles off the coast of Argentina I don't think the Argies are much of a UAS threat. Obviously any SRBM threat would be considered an escalation.
I agree not now but as said the Iran attack on Israel saw drones attack over 900 miles so the tec is out there remember even the Houthis have the means to attack Israel from over 1000 Km's
These users liked the author Tempest414 for the post:
SW1

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 5804
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by SW1 »

The Israeli harop used in armenia and Iranian shahed 136 that Russia are using in Ukraine all have that range and are launched 5 per shipping container I think.

Repulse
Donator
Posts: 4842
Joined: 05 May 2015, 22:46
United Kingdom

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Repulse »

Not sure where to put this, but relevant here also

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-68933778
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

sol
Member
Posts: 615
Joined: 01 Jul 2021, 09:11
Bosnia & Herzegovina

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by sol »

These users liked the author sol for the post:
Timmymagic

Online
Timmymagic
Donator
Posts: 3314
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
United Kingdom

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Timmymagic »

sol wrote: 07 May 2024, 21:57
Hopefully we'll see the MSI Terrahawk Paladin turn up at Thorney Island in the near future as well, if only for them to have a look...

sol
Member
Posts: 615
Joined: 01 Jul 2021, 09:11
Bosnia & Herzegovina

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by sol »

These users liked the author sol for the post:
Ron5

SD67
Senior Member
Posts: 1138
Joined: 23 Jul 2019, 09:49
United Kingdom

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by SD67 »

tomuk wrote: 22 Apr 2024, 17:36
Tempest414 wrote: 22 Apr 2024, 17:25
tomuk wrote: 22 Apr 2024, 17:06
Tempest414 wrote: 22 Apr 2024, 11:08 For me if we can take the Falklands as a case I would like to see a CAMM battery on MP airfield and a land based Type 45 system with Aster 30 on Mount Adam West Falklands

we also need to be thinking hard about the low end and for me we need to be looking a 6 round rapid ranger system with a 25 or 30mm gun and maybe even lower than that something like RWS mounted GAU-19
There is a CAMM battery on the Falklands and it more than enough to protect a few thousand sheep. It doesn't need anymore protection.
Glad your so fucking sure
Of what? That Argentina isn't going to try and invade tomorrow? What is the current order of battle of the Argentine forces?
We're in a pre war environment in case you hadn't noticed. 12 mnths ago who would have thought that a rag tag militia of a few hundred Yemeni's would be able to divert 40% of the world's shipping from the Suez canal and tie down a good proportion of NATOs maritime strength

NickC
Donator
Posts: 1521
Joined: 01 Sep 2017, 14:20
United Kingdom

Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by NickC »

My understanding the problem with high powered microwaves is the high power required to be effective as power dispersed over a wide area and as a consequence the limited capability due to the very short range, above is only 1 km, the wide area coverage does brings the advantage to take out a large numbers of drones simultaneously as opposed to lasers which can only take out one drone at a time. Its a large piece of kit and so think it would be lucky to last a day in Ukraine near the front line, perhaps further back out of the range artillery limiting it usefulness.

Maybe see HPMs fitted to ships as part of an anti-drone system, ships would also have the advantage of the necessary supply of electric power required, though going by experience in the Red Sea don't think the Captains would be happy if drones were within one km of ship.

Post Reply