F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Gabriele wrote:3Ftesting won't complete this summer; just as well that we are aiming for IOC in 2018.


3F testing was never meant to be complete this year. The roll-out of 3F software is due in mid 2017.
Testing and roll-out being separated by some significant time interval. I rephrase: Roll-out won't happen on time, either, at least according to this guy (he may be in the know?):
"
Development of the Block 3F version of the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) cannot be completed on the current schedule—by July 31, 2017—without shortcuts that risk failure in the initial operational test and evaluation (IOT&E) program, according to Michael Gilmore, the Pentagon’s director of OT&E (DOT&E). "

Without roll-out taking place in-between, you obviously can't proceed to the bolded activity (operational testing and evaluation, rather than just unit and integration tests focussing on software bugs only).
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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by Geoff_B »

RetroSicotte wrote:Sounds like a fair deal to me to have a read! :p

Sticking with Spear 3 is definitely the better plan. It's just so damn far away.

JSM would solve a lot of issues in one single missile acquirement, and in a very short acquirement time as well. At least until Spear 5 arrives in god knows when. (After FASGW/Telemos I have no belief in their estimates when working with France anymore.)
Don't forget we are only really looking at the mid 2020s to get initial carrier strike capability based on the revised delivery schedules for the F-35 and when we get the bulk of our initial requirement.

The problem with weapons intergration is that the more complex the aircraft the harder it gets to integrate new weapons as not only is is about tying the system to the targeting system so you can shoot the damn thing, but thet need to study the aerodynamic, the efeect on the aircraft of carrying, manoevering, and launching all of which can have an impact of the flight control systems, then there is the mix and match loads and adjusting for those variables.

Whilst these technological marvels are supposed to be easy to fly, they still have to programme the FCS how to fly with them, which means lots of test flying to take measurements and lots of analysis and then lots of programming to splice in the new data, and then lots of debugging and testing then flight testing to ensure they got it right and that it doesn't compromise the existing coding.

Thats why they are worried about overdoing it, trying to do to much too quickly, they may miss something, loose a plane and loose a good 12-24+ mths identifying the cause, fixing and testing.

It does make you wonder if we put too much faith in the technology that it no longer becomes practical and may need move back some of the workload back to the pilots by using less complex FCSs

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Geoff_B wrote:Thats why they are worried about overdoing it, trying to do to much too quickly, they may miss something, loose a plane and loose a good 12-24+ mths identifying the cause, fixing and testing.
I think they are worried about taking short cuts. Why would they otherwise be so open about it? There is a lot of time/ political pressure, export orders being lost etc
-- those who are rational (and accountable in their job) recognise that all testing to IOC and FOC is a V-shape, or more accurately a cone: You start from the bottom, you spiral up (costs increase a lot as you pass from one stage to the next; not just the cost of testing but producing more units, standing up infrastructure and then squadrons). If you take a short-cut or two that will force you to bach-track, all that substantial cost is going to idle for a year or two).
-- and, if you did not put it on record, before the fact, you might get the sack

PS Now that I read the quote and my piece together, I realise that Geoff was talking about being too much in a hurry, NOT about overdoing the testing - so, looks like we are saying the same thing?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by Gabriele »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Gabriele wrote:3Ftesting won't complete this summer; just as well that we are aiming for IOC in 2018.


3F testing was never meant to be complete this year. The roll-out of 3F software is due in mid 2017.
Testing and roll-out being separated by some significant time interval. I rephrase: Roll-out won't happen on time, either, at least according to this guy (he may be in the know?):
"
Development of the Block 3F version of the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) cannot be completed on the current schedule—by July 31, 2017—without shortcuts that risk failure in the initial operational test and evaluation (IOT&E) program, according to Michael Gilmore, the Pentagon’s director of OT&E (DOT&E). "

Without roll-out taking place in-between, you obviously can't proceed to the bolded activity (operational testing and evaluation, rather than just unit and integration tests focussing on software bugs only).

Mr Gilmore is paid to say that things do not work. He will consistently paint the picture dark at any and every chance. Indeed, he is not very popular (him or his office) with the service chiefs.
There are most certainly risks to the schedule, and we don't discover that today, but the JPO and the USAF think the risk to Block 3F has actually reduced from a 6 months uncertainty to 4. I wouldn't panic just yet.
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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Gabriele wrote: but the JPO and the USAF think the risk to Block 3F has actually reduced from a 6 months uncertainty to 4. I wouldn't panic just yet
We knew it anyway, and set the date for 2018 (just joking!)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by bobp »

I hope that when IOC is declared we have a few aircraft more than we do now.

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

It has been set at twelve, so if we push them all out of maintenance at the preplanned time (not fly those over in the US over, just for the occasion?)...
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by Gabriele »

bobp wrote:I hope that when IOC is declared we have a few aircraft more than we do now.
At IOC 2018 or anyway in the year of IOC, the plan is that 17-18 aircraft in total will be in british hands, including the 3 in the OEU and 5 as training fleet.
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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

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shark bait wrote:This is where we might see an advantage buying into the the Americans platform. It looks like we will require an interim missile, which will likley be an American product, that will likley be fitted to the F35 and can hopefully have a surface and land attack mode. I am therefore slightly more optimistic than you RetroSicotte.

Can we add watchkeeper to that list now? I don't understand why we still try and do business with these guys.
The UK has a policy of buying from MBDA in order to keep the industrial capability of developing advanced missiles. MBDA in return is using the concept of missile families to keep the price as affordable as possible. Both very sensible in my view. Both unlikely to allow purchases of US missiles where MBDA has a competitor.

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

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Ron5 wrote:The UK has a policy of buying from MBDA in order to keep the industrial capability of developing advanced missiles.
We do, and it's something we should continue. Very important industry, and great products.

However they won't have a modern ASM / cruise missile available in the time frame we need, so it is sensible to look towards American products in this instance.
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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by The Armchair Soldier »

One of our F-35s might be in the UK this summer, if all goes to plan, for RIAT and Farnborough International Air Show:

F-35 to Appear at RIAT, Farnborough
The U.S. Marine Corps is planning to send the F-35B to this year’s Royal International Air Tattoo and Farnborough Airshow in the United Kingdom this year, Lt. Gen. Jon Davis said.

Reuters also said the U.S. Air Force will send its F-35A there as well. An anonymous source said one of the F-35Bs attending belongs to Britain, which currently has four F-35Bs in the United States.
Read More: http://alert5.com/2016/01/26/f-35-to-ap ... ce=dlvr.it

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by Wrekin762 »

Hopefully it works out this time and there's not some other grounding incident.

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by 617 »

The Armchair Soldier wrote:One of our F-35s might be in the UK this summer, if all goes to plan, for RIAT and Farnborough International Air Show:

F-35 to Appear at RIAT, Farnborough
The U.S. Marine Corps is planning to send the F-35B to this year’s Royal International Air Tattoo and Farnborough Airshow in the United Kingdom this year, Lt. Gen. Jon Davis said.

Reuters also said the U.S. Air Force will send its F-35A there as well. An anonymous source said one of the F-35Bs attending belongs to Britain, which currently has four F-35Bs in the United States.
Read More: http://alert5.com/2016/01/26/f-35-to-ap ... ce=dlvr.it
Great news, I was planning to attend both!

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by JayDee »

Hope they show up this time! farnborough is always good anyway living so close i don't have to travel far :D

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by Ron5 »

JayDee wrote:Hope they show up this time! farnborough is always good anyway living so close i don't have to travel far :D
Seen them take off and land at Davis-Monthan just up the road from me, they be noisy. Very noisy. You'll hear them a long time before you see anything :-)

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

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UK to receive final F-35 test aircraft shortly
The United Kingdom is shortly to receive its final testbed Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), after a senior UK Royal Air Force (RAF) officer Tweeted an image of the completed aircraft at the Fort Worth production facility in Texas.

The United Kingdom currently has two operational test and evaluation (BK-1 and BK-2) and one training aircraft (BK-3) flying out of Eglin Air Force Base (AFB) in Florida. The image of the third operational test and evaluation (OT&E) aircraft (BK-4) was taken and posted online by Air Vice-Marshal Gary Waterfall, Air Officer Commanding No 1 Group, on 30 January, ahead of its expected delivery to the UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) in the coming days...
Read more: http://www.janes.com/article/57606/uk-t ... witterfeed

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by Geoff_B »

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/ar ... E_2015.pdf

The annual DoD F-35 review, always interesting reading without the corporate led spin-doctored propoganda, or there's a niggle lets drop the turkey now that we usually get.

Warning its not pleasant in places, and indicates numerous issues, but always bare in mind that these annual reports whilst seriously questioning the programme have always recommended continuation over cancellation !. It always nice to see a proper overview of the progress and concerns that still face the programme and it does make you realise that the 2023/4 date quoted for Carrier Strike is nearer to the mark than some would think as to when the type will be really ready for operational frontline service

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by Gabriele »

It always nice to see a proper overview of the progress and concerns that still face the programme
Bear in mind that the services tend to disagree with Gilmore a lot, and that he and his whole office continue to exist only because they sell themselves as guardians of truth and wisdom. The DOT&E sistematically paints the picture as dark as it can, because if the problem then gets solved, they can say it is thanks to their suggestions and vigilance, if it isn't, they can continue banging on it and appear busy and indispensable.

USAF officers have painted a considerably less gloomy picture, particularly on the risk of delays to Block 3F, which they see as actually reducing.
And regardless of Gilmore saying differently, the reduction in test events and points might actually not have any bad implication. Similarly, whatever "deficiency" there is in the software, it has nonetheless been assessed as an improvement over current kit by the USMC, and accepted into service.
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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by Gabriele »

USN is going to buy 10 C more than planned last year, and an extra 3 B for the USMC over the five-year budgeting period. So...

The real question is what, if anything, happens to the post FY17 USAF buy profile now that they have been ordered to keep burning money on the A-10 among other things. Something else will suffer because of it. A postponement of 5 airframes is hardly going to be felt, but if the build-up towards a 60 F-35A purchased per year from 2018 onwards is slowed down, then it is another story entirely.
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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by SKB »

The Royal Navy’s strike fighter of tomorrow will be tested to the limit by BAE – without ever leaving the ground.
http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-la ... et-fighter

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by WhiteWhale »

SKB wrote:The Royal Navy’s strike fighter of tomorrow will be tested to the limit by BAE – without ever leaving the ground.
http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-la ... et-fighter
I believe that it was such testing that revealed the cracks to certain bulkheads in the Dave-B previously. If memory serves there was a fix planned but I'm not sure if it has been worked in as of yet.

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by Gabriele »

Technically, BAE's not testing the next fighter for RAF and RN, since Brough has the F-35A stress test. F-35B and C are tested at Fort Worth (same method and machinery). BAE has also tested the vertical and horizontal tails to 3 lifes, for all three variants.
I believe that it was such testing that revealed the cracks to certain bulkheads in the Dave-B previously. If memory serves there was a fix planned but I'm not sure if it has been worked in as of yet.
That famous crack, and several others too. That's why this kind of test is done, after all. Typhoon back in the day developed well over 90 cracks, some of which serious.
Fixes are being developed and will be applied during depot maintenance for the aircraft already produced, and the changes are included in production as quickly as possible. The fix to the 496 Bulkhead should be rolled into production with LRIP 9 jets.
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