Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

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donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Uhmm. At least for Archer class replacements, both designs are too fast = requires huge maintenance load for their large engine. Much simple craft will be better.

By the way, high-speed patrol boat of ~20m design might be helpful. But, in that regard, the new CIC landing craft shall be the primary candidate?
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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

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donald_of_tokyo wrote: 23 Aug 2023, 13:50 Uhmm. At least for Archer class replacements, both designs are too fast = requires huge maintenance load for their large engine. Much simple craft will be better.

By the way, high-speed patrol boat of ~20m design might be helpful. But, in that regard, the new CIC landing craft shall be the primary candidate?
CIC or cutlass class. CIC ~ £10m or less, cutlass at ~£5m or less, so it wouldn't be hard to see which one they would pick.
cutlass can also go 41kts compared to CIC's required 25.

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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

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Repulse wrote: 23 Aug 2023, 13:28 Whilst I would love to see a new class of Littoral fast patrol boats for the RN, they would be in addition not replacing the Archers - and given other priorities would be lower down than the budget can afford.

I personally would replace the P2000s with 16 SeaClass ships with the Universities and say another 10 Cutlass class to cover Harbour Defence at Clyde, Devonport, Portsmouth and Cyprus. @£60mn
what kind of scale are we talking about for this Littoral Fast patrol boat?

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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

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new guy wrote: 23 Aug 2023, 14:23 CIC or cutlass class. CIC ~ £10m or less, cutlass at ~£5m or less, so it wouldn't be hard to see which one they would pick.
cutlass can also go 41kts compared to CIC's required 25.
Different jobs would need both (possibly a third).

Cutlass is for Harbour defence/ security

CIC is effectively a fancy name for a new LCVP

A Fast Littoral Patrol Craft would need be to provide near shore maritime security, support the CICs and also operate in rivers / estuaries - a modern day MGB in my book.
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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Repulse wrote: 23 Aug 2023, 15:54...
A Fast Littoral Patrol Craft would need be to provide near shore maritime security, support the CICs and also operate in rivers / estuaries - a modern day MGB in my book.
Not arguing against, but genuine question. CIC, for me is something a stealthy CB90 or alike. And CB90 is well fit for river patrol boat as well as estuaries. But you say MGB, so you think it needs more punch, like a 40mm 3P gun?

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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

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donald_of_tokyo wrote: 23 Aug 2023, 16:03
Repulse wrote: 23 Aug 2023, 15:54...
A Fast Littoral Patrol Craft would need be to provide near shore maritime security, support the CICs and also operate in rivers / estuaries - a modern day MGB in my book.
Not arguing against, but genuine question. CIC, for me is something a stealthy CB90 or alike. And CB90 is well fit for river patrol boat as well as estuaries. But you say MGB, so you think it needs more punch, like a 40mm 3P gun?
Yes, as I say in reality a lower priority, but yes something that could work with Wildcats to destroy USVs/UAVsmall boats and give fire support to landing craft. Also, potentially something that could give a larger ship close to shore a bad day, but as I say complementing other assets.
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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

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Costs:


CIC: ~£10m
https://www.navalnews.com/event-news/cn ... 0detection.


Cutlass class: £2.5m-£5m
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutlass-c ... rol_vessel


MOD police: around £1.5m
https://www.bmt.org/news/2021/bmt-secur ... ce-police/


Sea class: under £1.5bn
https://www.navylookout.com/in-focus-th ... oyal-navy/




https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... rettyPhoto



What jobs need to be forfilled?
harbour Patrol?
Fast boat training?
Coastal / littoral effect?

won't have to worry about this for many years, and when it happens it will probably be quite quick.

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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

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Four of the Royal Navy's smallest ships are preparing to brave three weeks of rough seas as they head far north into the Arctic for Exercise Steadfast Defender, Nato's largest exercise since the Cold War.

P2000 patrol boats HMS Biter, Blazer, Exploit and Trumpeter sailed from Portsmouth Naval Base at the start of their journey to Norway's Arctic coast.

The fibreglass-hulled ships, which normally patrol coastlines, are just 20.8 metres long and have a displacement of 54 tonnes, with a crew of five on board.


https://www.forces.net/services/navy/ro ... rough-seas


For weeks at a time, a crew of five must live on board one of the Royal Navy's smallest ships. But what is it like for them while they're at sea?

The Archer-class P2000 fast patrol boat has multi-purpose rooms, and cosy spaces in keeping with its size.

Watch our video above to learn from the commanding officer of HMS Ranger what it's like to serve on one of these craft.

https://www.forces.net/technology/sea-v ... royal-navy
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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

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Aphibious work, training with larger maritime groups, USMC, RM, Norwegian marines, Training with wildcats for fast boat tatics,

Ltt Osborne said this was an exciting opportunity for them to push "the limits of what the Coastal Forces Squadron has done since World War Two".

He added: "The squadron was derived then and we've moved away from that day sort of warfighting routes towards the university training.

"We're now going back to our core role, which will be working in the Arctic Circle, delivering people and other sorts of operations as part of that exercise."

Important to remember that these are university boats.

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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

Post by Tempest414 »

We need to remember that these boats are now 35+ years old and will be up for replacement soon so now is the time to workout what we want from the Coastal Sqn

What I would like to see is 35 to 40 meter boat capable of 35+ knots and carrying a 40mm gun and a number of Brimstone plus a SF team

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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

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Yes, Brimstoning fishing boats and rubber dinghys is clearly an MOD priority.
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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

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Tempest414 wrote: 08 Feb 2024, 09:43 We need to remember that these boats are now 35+ years old and will be up for replacement soon so now is the time to workout what we want from the Coastal Sqn

What I would like to see is 35 to 40 meter boat capable of 35+ knots and carrying a 40mm gun and a number of Brimstone plus a SF team
These boat probably have another 10-20 years in them.

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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

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shark bait wrote: 08 Feb 2024, 12:16 Yes, Brimstoning fishing boats and rubber dinghys is clearly an MOD priority.
Don't be silly we all know how useful fast attack boats would be in the Baltic for inserting SF teams and hitting coastal targets

Plus it is clear there is move by the RN in the direction as the Archer class have deployed into the Baltic for the last 4 years

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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

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Tempest414 wrote: 08 Feb 2024, 18:30 Don't be silly we all know how useful fast attack boats would be in the Baltic for inserting SF teams and hitting coastal targets

Plus it is clear there is move by the RN in the direction as the Archer class have deployed into the Baltic for the last 4 years
What will be their future role?

Could they have a support role for the FCF along the Norwegian coast and in Baltic for example?

If so the design could look very different.
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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

Post by Jackstar »

For weeks at a time, a crew of five must live on board one of the Royal Navy's smallest ships. But what is it like for them while they're at sea?

The Archer-class P2000 fast patrol boat has multi-purpose rooms, and cosy spaces in keeping with its size.

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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

Post by wargame_insomniac »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 08 Feb 2024, 19:33
Tempest414 wrote: 08 Feb 2024, 18:30 Don't be silly we all know how useful fast attack boats would be in the Baltic for inserting SF teams and hitting coastal targets

Plus it is clear there is move by the RN in the direction as the Archer class have deployed into the Baltic for the last 4 years
What will be their future role?

Could they have a support role for the FCF along the Norwegian coast and in Baltic for example?

If so the design could look very different.
The replacements for the RN Archer class and any Fast Attack gunboats / Commando Raiding force are likely to need two quite different replacement classes.

To replace the Archer Class the emphasis itself must be cheap and simple. The RN has invested in the Sea class boats for many functional tasks such as training, passenger transfer, environmental.They use common hull and components such as navigational & control systems and engines, with various drop in sections to customise them for different roles.

An enlarged Sea Class at the 25-30m hull length should give low cost quick upgrade which will benefit from common systems with many of the other RN Small boats.

The RN / RM commitments to Scandinavia and Baltics seem unclear to me since the addition to NATO of recently Finland and (hopefully) soon Sweden. But there definitely appears to be a need for an equivalent of old WW2 MTB / MGB.

Operating up Norwegian fjords, in Baltic and North Seas, protecting valauble UK Maritime infrastructure if Russia escalates grey war with massed small boats and / or autonomous vehicles, stealthily inserting or pickup RM and SF missions etc.

There is some budget in RM Commandos CIC Project. I am sure that our various allies in JEF might have some suitable designs. With some bias towards speed and stealth it could be quite a racy, fun, dare I say sexy design.

Some forum members seem to enjoy throwing out various weapons, systems, sensors so I will leave that to them.

I definitely think there are enough actual and potential tasks and roles such a ship could satisfy or even excel at once the RN has clarified some of its responsibilities etc.

Either or both designs should be totally in H&W Appledore's skillsets, and with cachet of RN approval, may appeal to potential export clients.

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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

Post by Repulse »

Replacements should come in two classes IMO.

First would be more Cutlass class boats focused on harbour defence both for the UK and capable of being forward based to overseas bases such as Cyprus, Oman etc.

Second would be a class of Damen FCS4008 XV Patrick Blackett style near shore patrol ships capable of deploying small drones / UUVs and operating the new RN Pods.

Eight of each class.
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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

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Seeing we are playing this game, make it a Catamaran.

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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

Post by Poiuytrewq »

wargame_insomniac wrote: 15 Feb 2024, 21:37 The replacements for the RN Archer class and any Fast Attack gunboats / Commando Raiding force are likely to need two quite different replacement classes.
What is the requirement?

Could more capability be squeezed from any Archer replacements without blowing the budget or require more manpower?

Is there a crossover now between the ship to shore connector requirement and the Archer replacements?

Can the CIC replace the Archer?

Unless there is a lot of crossover with other capabilities I really don’t see the Archer replacements as any kind of a priority considering the state of the rest of the fleet.
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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

An apparent candidate is, SEA class 15 boat (15m long and 21t weight) shall be a candidate.

https://www.atlas-elektronik.com/filead ... _Sheet.pdf

I understand it can be "adopted" to be an USV, using the same system used for ARCIMS USVs. That means in war time, these boats can be converted to be
- un-manned Centurion for port entrance. (Can be manned, if needed)
- MCM tasks, actually, just towing a side-scan sonar will help a lot to "see" no mines are layed on the entrance of our ports. The main USVs within the UAV-MCM-team can come over AFTER any suspicious mines are claimed.
- if some sets of SeaSense ASW package is adopted, it can be a very good shallow-water ASW picket, remote controlled from the shore.

In peace time, it can be used with URNU.
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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

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Holyhead marine or Artemis technologies patrol boats may offer something a bit different in this segment.
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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

Post by wargame_insomniac »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 16 Feb 2024, 14:35 An apparent candidate is, SEA class 15 boat (15m long and 21t weight) shall be a candidate.

https://www.atlas-elektronik.com/filead ... _Sheet.pdf

I understand it can be "adopted" to be an USV, using the same system used for ARCIMS USVs. That means in war time, these boats can be converted to be
- un-manned Centurion for port entrance. (Can be manned, if needed)
- MCM tasks, actually, just towing a side-scan sonar will help a lot to "see" no mines are layed on the entrance of our ports. The main USVs within the UAV-MCM-team can come over AFTER any suspicious mines are claimed.
- if some sets of SeaSense ASW package is adopted, it can be a very good shallow-water ASW picket, remote controlled from the shore.

In peace time, it can be used with URNU.
Yes- agreed. That was one half of what I was trying to say, with Sea Class being a good cheap for Archer replacement, with the advantage of thus sharing many common parts.

The second part of my proposal was in the spirit of an updated WW2 MTB/MGB. Armed, fast, stealthy this would cover missions in Norwegian fjords, North & Baltic Seas, suitable for infiltrating and extracting small parties of RM Commandos and SF.

The latter design is hard to list requirements as we are currently waiting for Uks role in Scandinavia and Baltics, under JEF and RM Commandos.

I offerup "MTB 2025" as a stand- in name, but I am not precious about it. Or maybe "MTB 2035" to be more realstic of likely outcome of MOD Involvement.

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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

I think the latter must be the CIC itself, the longer endurance, higher speed, LCVP replacement.
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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

Post by wargame_insomniac »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 16 Feb 2024, 23:12 I think the latter must be the CIC itself, the longer endurance, higher speed, LCVP replacement.
Agreed. If I had nt mentioned then my mistake, and that was only because I was trying to avoid repeating large chunks of text verbatim.

A CIC feels well suited to Norwegian Fjords and Baltic and North Seas. RN manned but able to contribute to RN / RM / BA operations in those areas.

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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

Post by Repulse »

The P2000 replacements do not need to be a single class, what we should consider is what would be their role in a war to support the RN.

I see three:
- Harbour defence - Portsmouth, Devonport and Faslane need patrol ships, also we should be ready to deploy to places like Cyprus etc as has been done in the past.
- Coastal ASW / MCM patrols - Whilst unmanned systems can fill part of the gap, there’s a lot of area to cover especially in tricky littoral zones around the UK.

That’s why a SeaClass would be a bad choice IMO, I would entertain another Magpie, but there is enough training / diving craft already delivered by the current programme.

CIC is not a reserve role neither IMO, it’s a day one fighting requirement.

Look more Cutlass class and XV Damen type ships IMO.
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