Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

[wargame_insomniac]

Good news, although it needs to happen sooner as there are no several potential global flashpoints thanks to the likes of Russia, China and even Iran and North Korea pushing to find weaknesses of the West, at a time when increasing risk of 2nd Donald Trump US Presidency causing US to become more isolationist.

This also reinforces the need for T45 to have more VLS cells to have increased resilience in their primary AAW role.

Whilst HMS Diamond has done well against a minor proxy in the Houthis, how well would she fare against major proxy like Hezbollah (with much larger quantity and variety of drones, munitions and missiles), let alone against Iran directly or above all China.

This is why I have long been an advocate of quad-packing CAMM (either via Mk41 or EXLS) and maybe Martlett deck launcher to offer lower cost options for desling with cheaper, simpler, more numerous drones / unguided munitions / missiles.

[tomuk]

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/british ... e-upgrade/

and the MBDA press release:
https://www.mbda-systems.com/press-rele ... c-threats/

So, Aster 30 block 1 introduction. Block 1 NT is under study.

How is this different than what was announced 2 years ago?

https://www.navylookout.com/upgrading-t ... estroyers/

It partly isn't just the usual politicians strategy of renouncing the same things at each stage of the process.
The MBDA press release lists out three contracts
1) New five year Sea Viper support contract (New)
2) Aster Block 1 upgrade plus Sampson updates with basic BMD (Old News)
3) Aster Block 1 NT assessment phase study (New)

[donald_of_tokyo]

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/british ... e-upgrade/

and the MBDA press release:
https://www.mbda-systems.com/press-rele ... c-threats/

So, Aster 30 block 1 introduction. Block 1 NT is under study.

How is this different than what was announced 2 years ago?

https://www.navylookout.com/upgrading-t ... estroyers/

It partly isn't just the usual politicians strategy of renouncing the same things at each stage of the process.
The MBDA press release lists out three contracts
1) New five year Sea Viper support contract (New)
2) Aster Block 1 upgrade plus Sampson updates with basic BMD (Old News)
3) Aster Block 1 NT assessment phase study (New)

Yes, fully described last year. 100% old news.

https://www.navalnews.com/event-news/ds ... apability/

[Ian Hall]

I notice lots of criticism around the bazars about the weapons outload on RN vessels (lately aboutT45 HMS Diamond), with same commentators staying strangely silent on the lesser outload of allied vessels.

[Ian Hall]

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... e-red-sea/

[wargame_insomniac]

I notice lots of criticism around the bazars about the weapons outload on RN vessels (lately aboutT45 HMS Diamond), with same commentators staying strangely silent on the lesser outload of allied vessels.

So far only USN and RN have sent ships to serve under Operation Prosperity Guardian.

The other European navies, including French, have been discussing taking part in EU led mission, but so far that has not been (publicly) announced.

[Halidon]

I notice lots of criticism around the bazars about the weapons outload on RN vessels (lately aboutT45 HMS Diamond), with same commentators staying strangely silent on the lesser outload of allied vessels.

So far only USN and RN have sent ships to serve under Operation Prosperity Guardian.

The other European navies, including French, have been discussing taking part in EU led mission, but so far that has not been (publicly) announced.

Sri Lanka, Greece, and Denmark have pledged to send ships, but none are able to do so on short notice so it's taking awhile.

[Ron5]

I notice lots of criticism around the bazars about the weapons outload on RN vessels (lately aboutT45 HMS Diamond), with same commentators staying strangely silent on the lesser outload of allied vessels.

Because this is a forum focusing on the Royal Navy duh.

[Poiuytrewq]

I notice lots of criticism around the bazars about the weapons outload on RN vessels (lately aboutT45 HMS Diamond), with same commentators staying strangely silent on the lesser outload of allied vessels.

So far only USN and RN have sent ships to serve under Operation Prosperity Guardian.

The other European navies, including French, have been discussing taking part in EU led mission, but so far that has not been (publicly) announced.

"discussing taking part in EU led mission"

I think that translates into doing absolutely sweet fu#k all, precisely what we've come to expect from the dithering EU...

They need to stop fu#king about and just join Prosperity Guardian. I dare say the Germans will find some excuse not to leave the Baltic anyway.

[Anthony58]

This decision needs to be reversed, to at least the original out of service date of 2043, otherwise we will have only 13 frigates with a 15+ miles Sea Ceptor missiles, without the necessary radar for longer range missiles and the gap in Type 83 destroyers and the challenge in finding experienced crews for them, if we ran on the Type 45's to 2043/5.

[SW1]

This decision needs to be reversed, to at least the original out of service date of 2043, otherwise we will have only 13 frigates with a 15+ miles Sea Ceptor missiles, without the necessary radar for longer range missiles and the gap in Type 83 destroyers and the challenge in finding experienced crews for them, if we ran on the Type 45's to 2043/5.

That would be the course to take if we have learnt nothing whatsoever from the current predicament with the type 23s.

[Poiuytrewq]

This decision needs to be reversed, to at least the original out of service date of 2043, otherwise we will have only 13 frigates with a 15+ miles Sea Ceptor missiles, without the necessary radar for longer range missiles and the gap in Type 83 destroyers and the challenge in finding experienced crews for them, if we ran on the Type 45's to 2043/5.

Completely disagree.

Daring is due to decommission in 2035 or only 11 years away. Time is tight unless work on the T83 is more advanced than is currently suggested.

RN needs to introduce a class of cheap but effective AAW Frigates based either on T31 or T26 using CAMM and CAMM MR increasing the range out to 50nm.

Without major adaptation the T31 could embark 40x CAMM MR, 48x CAMM and 16x NSM plus the 57mm and up to 4x 40mm.

Upgrade the radar(s) and get them in the water asap. A class of six such vessels could be commissioned by 2032 easing the pressure on the T45 OSD and ensuring time to get the T45 replacement correct in every way.

[Poiuytrewq]

This decision needs to be reversed, to at least the original out of service date of 2043, otherwise we will have only 13 frigates with a 15+ miles Sea Ceptor missiles, without the necessary radar for longer range missiles and the gap in Type 83 destroyers and the challenge in finding experienced crews for them, if we ran on the Type 45's to 2043/5.

Completely disagree.

Daring is due to decommission in 2035 or only 11 years away. Time is tight unless work on the T83 is more advanced than is currently suggested.

RN needs to introduce a class of cheap but effective AAW Frigates based either on T31 or T26 using CAMM and CAMM MR increasing the range out to 50nm.

Without major adaptation the T31 could embark 40x CAMM MR, 48x CAMM and 16x NSM plus the 57mm and up to 4x 40mm.

Upgrade the radar(s) and get them in the water asap. A class of six such vessels could be commissioned by 2032 easing the pressure on the T45 OSD and ensuring time to get the T45 replacement correct in every way.

As ever we are synced and in agreement mate....

To me, it's an air defence Destroyer based on the T26.
Perhaps a variant of Australian Hunter Class?

Design needs to be underway now and they could start delivering and replacing T45's in the 2030's, in line with Darlings OSD, keeping the T26 line going....

No more bloody service life extensions for god's sake!!!

[abc123]

An AAW variant of the T26 is a no brainer and costs can be shared with the RAN and RCN. Given the new frigate factory, another six AAW variants could be achieved without Gaps with the T45s.

However given the threat, there is no logical reason not to repurpose the five T31s also to become AAW ships, at least then they have a useful and relevant role.

[Bongodog]

This decision needs to be reversed, to at least the original out of service date of 2043, otherwise we will have only 13 frigates with a 15+ miles Sea Ceptor missiles, without the necessary radar for longer range missiles and the gap in Type 83 destroyers and the challenge in finding experienced crews for them, if we ran on the Type 45's to 2043/5.

Surely out of service dates are only an indication of the present day support programme for the existing fleet ? I recall that the Merlin had an out of service date in the Mid 20's only a few years ago.

The important thing is to ensure that the replacement programme moves forward to ensure that funds aren't wasted keeping the existing fleet in service as has happened with the T23

T45 hulls should have ample life remaining, they haven't exactly been hard worked.

[Poiuytrewq]

An AAW variant of the T26 is a no brainer and costs can be shared with the RAN and RCN. Given the new frigate factory, another six AAW variants could be achieved without Gaps with the T45s.

A good idea if defence spending rises as six such ships will likely cost north of £6bn to £8bn.

Six AAW T31 may be less than half of that.

[tomuk]

This decision needs to be reversed, to at least the original out of service date of 2043, otherwise we will have only 13 frigates with a 15+ miles Sea Ceptor missiles, without the necessary radar for longer range missiles and the gap in Type 83 destroyers and the challenge in finding experienced crews for them, if we ran on the Type 45's to 2043/5.

Surely out of service dates are only an indication of the present day support programme for the existing fleet ? I recall that the Merlin had an out of service date in the Mid 20's only a few years ago.

The important thing is to ensure that the replacement programme moves forward to ensure that funds aren't wasted keeping the existing fleet in service as has happened with the T23

T45 hulls should have ample life remaining, they haven't exactly been hard worked.

Exactly. The current osd is just a number on a spreadsheet at MOD main building. No thought has been given to a 'proper' osd.

[Ian Hall]

[NickC]

T45 hulls should have ample life remaining, they haven't exactly been hard worked.

The hulls may have ample life remaining but some of the kit will be near 40 years old.

[Bongodog]

T45 hulls should have ample life remaining, they haven't exactly been hard worked.

The hulls may have ample life remaining but some of the kit will be near 40 years old.

The ship systems (propulsion etc) haven't been hard worked, I agree regarding the fighting systems, hopefully each refit has updated those to current levels. One positive aspect is that we now seemingly construct hulls with sufficient space for upgrades, unlike previously a typical example being trying to fit seawolf to the Leanders.

[new guy]

T45 hulls should have ample life remaining, they haven't exactly been hard worked.

The hulls may have ample life remaining but some of the kit will be near 40 years old.

The ship systems (propulsion etc) haven't been hard worked, I agree regarding the fighting systems, hopefully each refit has updated those to current levels. One positive aspect is that we now seemingly construct hulls with sufficient space for upgrades, unlike previously a typical example being trying to fit seawolf to the Leanders.

And yet a vocal section of this boards was screaming for a warmed over Type 23 design instead of the Type 26. A Type 23 design that was acknowledged as being too small when it was first designed and built.

The same folks that are yelling for a warmed over type 26 design to replace the Type 45's.

Go figure

[Jdam]

Might be the camera, looks like a hell of an explosion.

[tomuk]

T45 hulls should have ample life remaining, they haven't exactly been hard worked.

The hulls may have ample life remaining but some of the kit will be near 40 years old.

The ship systems (propulsion etc) haven't been hard worked, I agree regarding the fighting systems, hopefully each refit has updated those to current levels. One positive aspect is that we now seemingly construct hulls with sufficient space for upgrades, unlike previously a typical example being trying to fit seawolf to the Leanders.

If anything were to 'kill' the T45s it will probably be obsolescence in the propulsion power electronics.

[Fr0sty125]

An AAW variant of the T26 is a no brainer and costs can be shared with the RAN and RCN. Given the new frigate factory, another six AAW variants could be achieved without Gaps with the T45s.

However given the threat, there is no logical reason not to repurpose the five T31s also to become AAW ships, at least then they have a useful and relevant role.

It’s only a no brainer to use the T26 platform if you want an expensive multirole AAW/ASW ship. If you just want an AAW asset then the Type 31 is a better platform.

[Repulse]

An AAW variant of the T26 is a no brainer and costs can be shared with the RAN and RCN. Given the new frigate factory, another six AAW variants could be achieved without Gaps with the T45s.

However given the threat, there is no logical reason not to repurpose the five T31s also to become AAW ships, at least then they have a useful and relevant role.

It’s only a no brainer to use the T26 platform if you want an expensive multirole AAW/ASW ship. If you just want an AAW asset then the Type 31 is a better platform.

The RN cannot afford scale and capability both financially and in terms of crewing - better to have 15-16 top tier multi-role crewed warships than 19 single role ones where 25% are second tier and a similar number are tied up alongside.