General UK Defence Discussion

For everything else UK defence-related that doesn't fit into any of the sections above.
Poiuytrewq
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by Poiuytrewq »

SW1 wrote: 21 Jan 2024, 10:57 There was a new settlement in about 2020…
All planning and funding before February 2022 is now obsolete.
You can’t compete on mass against countries who have populations off up to a billion people when you live in country of 65 million.
Not relevant.

The U.K. population is now 20% larger than it was in 1990.

The British Army in 1990 had a total strength of around 225,000. Today that is around 100,000 and predicted to continue falling.

That is what is relevant.
NATO is the North Atlantic treaty organisation it is limited geopolitical to the very area it is supposed to be, were we live and where 100% of all our goods and services enter and leave.
NATO needs to fully concentrate on the Euro-Atlantic area and not allow mission creep to draw NATO forces outside this core area.
I would completely disagree that international coalitions are unrealistic. All our operations are in international coalitions. We could do with a heavy dose of not getting involved in things that don’t really have much benefit to us tbh.
The UN is deadlocked. If multiple P5 members are on opposing sides these international coalitions will rapidly collapse.
I would suspect if Nikki haley is not the republican candidate in the US elections then the US becoming significantly less involved in Europe is a distinct possibility. It would mean we would need to pivot almost exclusively to Europe and the Atlantic.
What you are proposing is for the U.K. to become as isolationist as the US.

In that scenario who protects the rules based order across the globe?

The harsh reality is that the US, UK, France, Australia etc are going to have to do more and spend more at home and abroad. If they don’t the rules based order will continue to disintegrate.
If that does happen it’s not aircraft carriers, jets and tanks were the pressure will be felt. It will be in c2, strategic logistics, airborne ISR and special forces capabilities where it will be felt the most, should we prioritise to those areas?
All areas need strengthened and mass must return as a priority.
SDSR wasn’t that bad in that it made a structure that was actually within budget and could be funded. The main problem was sdsr 2015 which added a load of stuff back in without budget or people to cover it. Were sdsr 2010 failed was it didn’t join anything up across the services and provide a robust long term plan. It just chopped what could be chopped quickest to save money quickest.
SDSR was a complete disaster, the ramifications of which are only becoming obvious to the mainstream now.

The fastest way to start to recover the capabilities lost is to make a clear and honest effort to reverse the ridiculous headcount cuts in SDSR 2010.

Poiuytrewq
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by Poiuytrewq »

jedibeeftrix wrote: 21 Jan 2024, 12:27 ….where does extra money for defence come from?
Where did the funding go when the savage cuts were made in SDSR 2010?

Start there.

jedibeeftrix
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by jedibeeftrix »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 22 Jan 2024, 11:51
jedibeeftrix wrote: 21 Jan 2024, 12:27 ….where does extra money for defence come from?
Where did the funding go when the savage cuts were made in SDSR 2010?

Start there.
what if everyone took a similar hit?
which is the conclusion i came to back in the day:

https://jedibeeftrix.wordpress.com/2010 ... -for-2015/
If we accept that the 10% cut resulting from the Gray report should be added to the 7.5% departmental cut, in addition to the ~2% cut from the acquisition cost of the Trident replacement, then Defence saw a reduction in line with the average over other departments, and it remains a minor miracle that a more serious capability cull was not necessary!

SW1
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by SW1 »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 22 Jan 2024, 11:47
SW1 wrote: 21 Jan 2024, 10:57 There was a new settlement in about 2020…
All planning and funding before February 2022 is now obsolete.
You can’t compete on mass against countries who have populations off up to a billion people when you live in country of 65 million.
Not relevant.

The U.K. population is now 20% larger than it was in 1990.

The British Army in 1990 had a total strength of around 225,000. Today that is around 100,000 and predicted to continue falling.

That is what is relevant.
NATO is the North Atlantic treaty organisation it is limited geopolitical to the very area it is supposed to be, were we live and where 100% of all our goods and services enter and leave.
NATO needs to fully concentrate on the Euro-Atlantic area and not allow mission creep to draw NATO forces outside this core area.
I would completely disagree that international coalitions are unrealistic. All our operations are in international coalitions. We could do with a heavy dose of not getting involved in things that don’t really have much benefit to us tbh.
The UN is deadlocked. If multiple P5 members are on opposing sides these international coalitions will rapidly collapse.
I would suspect if Nikki haley is not the republican candidate in the US elections then the US becoming significantly less involved in Europe is a distinct possibility. It would mean we would need to pivot almost exclusively to Europe and the Atlantic.
What you are proposing is for the U.K. to become as isolationist as the US.

In that scenario who protects the rules based order across the globe?

The harsh reality is that the US, UK, France, Australia etc are going to have to do more and spend more at home and abroad. If they don’t the rules based order will continue to disintegrate.
If that does happen it’s not aircraft carriers, jets and tanks were the pressure will be felt. It will be in c2, strategic logistics, airborne ISR and special forces capabilities where it will be felt the most, should we prioritise to those areas?
All areas need strengthened and mass must return as a priority.
SDSR wasn’t that bad in that it made a structure that was actually within budget and could be funded. The main problem was sdsr 2015 which added a load of stuff back in without budget or people to cover it. Were sdsr 2010 failed was it didn’t join anything up across the services and provide a robust long term plan. It just chopped what could be chopped quickest to save money quickest.
SDSR was a complete disaster, the ramifications of which are only becoming obvious to the mainstream now.

The fastest way to start to recover the capabilities lost is to make a clear and honest effort to reverse the ridiculous headcount cuts in SDSR 2010.
Don’t think so because they’ll tell you they funding uplift before 2022 was because they saw Russia as a threat they preempted it.

It’s not really irrelevant. How much of that population increase is immigration driven and can’t or have no interest in joining the military.

The UN isn’t what defines the international coalitions we are part of for military operations.
It has always been deadlocked the p5 have always been Russia China on one side uk America on the other and France somewhere in the middle.

No that is not isolationist it’s reality with the security situation in the European and Atlantic region. We will concentrate on it. That is the harsh reality.

At lot of the issues at present are the result of adding things in, in 2015 that far exceeded budget and manpower available causing overstretch in both areas


topman
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by topman »

I have noticed his comments have put defence on the front page, in talks shows, phone ins, sm etc in a way that very few other defence interviews have.

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Ian Hall
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by Ian Hall »

Clearly the author's views are his own. He paints a troubling picture of the future.

https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/p ... -ready-war

topman
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by topman »

https://news.sky.com/story/uk-militarys ... n-13063630

'The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has publicly conceded just five people are recruited to the armed forces for every eight who leave - but the committee said it understood the situation may now be even worse.'

Poiuytrewq
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Controversial stuff from Mr Page.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... ar-russia/.


Wasteful Britain needs to buy a new arsenal for war with Russia…..Doubts over Nato and threats on multiple fronts leave UK with no choice but to rearm

Britain Military Spending
The world is changing fast and not for the better. Russia is transitioning back into a Soviet-style war economy, and its military power will increase enormously. At the moment we are kept safe, at very little cost to ourselves, by the heroic sacrifices of the Ukrainians. That can’t go on forever.

One way or another the fighting in Ukraine will stop, quite possibly due to a ceasefire imposed on the Ukrainians by the next US president. The Russian armed forces will then be able to reorganise, rearm, conscript, and build.

The ceasefire will end at a time and place of Vladimir Putin’s choosing. One notes that he has just visited Kaliningrad, the Russian exclave in the Baltics, long seen as a potential flashpoint in a future Russia/Nato war.

German planners have constructed a scenario in which Putin might provoke a war by moving into the Suwalki Gap, the territory along the Poland/Lithuania border between Kaliningrad and Belarus.

It’s important not to be defeatist about this. If the poorly equipped, poorly funded Ukrainians could not only stop the Russians cold but push them back almost everywhere – as they did – it’s clear that the relatively well-equipped Nato nations could inflict disaster on the Russians.


Foolish optimism and then equally foolish disappointment over last year’s Ukrainian counter-offensive has obscured the reality that Russia’s invasion has indeed been a colossal failure.

The entire Russian army, reinforced by hundreds of thousands of new conscripts and munitions from North Korea and Iran, has barely managed to take and hold a few Ukrainian provinces: and this against the Ukrainian army alone, armed with only a limited selection of Western weapons.

Fighting the many nations of Nato and the full crushing weight of Western military technology, the Russian army could expect a much bloodier nose still.

But that was the Russian army of 2022. The Russian army of the near future, disengaged from the Ukrainian meat grinder and with hugely increased funding, will become a lot bigger.

Worse still, that was the Nato of 2022. It’s perfectly believable that the next president of the United States will be Donald Trump. Trump has repeatedly threatened to pull America out of Nato, and has reportedly said “Nato is dead” and “I don’t give a s--- about Nato”.

If the US pulls out of Nato, it takes with it 70pc of all the alliance’s defence spending. Of course, not all US defence spending goes on supporting Nato, but anyone who has worked as part of Nato forces will confirm that America does indeed account for the great majority of the alliance’s military power.

So not only will future Russia be stronger: future Nato may be a lot, lot weaker.


Then there’s China, nowadays the second largest military spender in the world. The Chinese are constantly probing at the defences of democratic Taiwan, and are also engaged in a long-running campaign to simply snatch most of the South China Sea in outright defiance of international law.

Meanwhile an international naval taskforce, as ever mostly from America, is engaged in serious fighting north and south of the Bab-el-Mandeb strait in an attempt to keep one of the world’s major trade routes open.

If Putin manages to snatch Ukraine or part of it, he will not stop there. If China manages to snatch Taiwan and the South China Sea, it will not stop there. If the Houthis are permitted to shut down the Red Sea, others will be emboldened and the Strait of Hormuz or the Malacca Strait may be next.

If we decide these things are not our business and let our enemies expand and dominate – and profit from these activities, as they choke our trade and conquer our allies – we will none the less wind up fighting them in the end, when they get round to us.

It’s better to fight the Chinese navy in the Taiwan Strait than in the Torres Strait just north of Australia. It’s better to fight Russia in Poland or the Baltics than in France or – God forbid – on this sceptred isle. It’s better to fight while we still have free and democratic allies to fight alongside, rather than let them fall and find ourselves alone when our turn comes.

And it’s so much better and cheaper if our enemies see us there on the other side of whatever line they are thinking of crossing, and decide that they can’t win. Deterrence is so much better and cheaper than fighting.

Truly, if you want peace, prepare for war.

All this means that the time for Britain to start rearming is now. The peace dividend is over: finished. We are in several new Cold Wars now. For those who prefer a 1930s analogy, we need not just a 1930s-style rearmament but one considerably bigger, one sufficiently impressive that the Blitzkrieg would never have been launched and the Japanese would never have begun their Pacific war. That would have been expensive but much, much cheaper than the Second World War turned out.

As a baseline, in the 1980s with the Cold War at its height, British defence spending was between 4pc to 5pc of GDP. Today, it is barely above 2pc. Defence minister Grant Shapps has stated an ambition for 2.5pc, but declines to give a timetable. Most of our political establishment thinks this is ambitious or even extreme.

This shows the blindness of the British political class on military matters. Nobody reasonable could deny that the threat level is at least as high as it was in the Cold War. The discussion should not be about if or when we might boost defence spending by 10pc to 15pc: it should be about increasing it right now by 100pc.

It’s not even as though we’re talking about large amounts of money here. Annual defence spending is running at about £46bn. Total government spending is – unbelievably, almost – approaching £1.2 trillion.

Doubling the defence budget would involve just a 4pc haircut for the other departments. Alternatively you could find most of the money by reassigning the international aid budget and closing down much of the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero, leaving a few useful bits. I’m probably being a bit old-fashioned here, in fact, by suggesting that spending more on one thing should mean spending less on others.

So we can easily afford to rearm: and we should spend that money. It is absolutely critical, however, that we spend it on rapidly making our armed forces more powerful, not on other things.

That sounds obvious, but unfortunately it isn’t what we normally do. The Ministry of Defence (MoD) is routinely expected to do the work of the Department for Business, the Department of Work and Pensions and so on.

In particular the MoD is expected to create and sustain large numbers of well-paid British civilian jobs apart from its own substantial body of civil servants. These jobs are often expected to revive rundown cities and regions, reducing unemployment and delivering social benefit.

The MoD is also expected to provide finance on very generous terms to nominally UK-based companies so that they can develop profitable products which, it is hoped, may bring in export business. Defence money is even expected to preserve the Union.

What all this means is that it’s possible to shovel large amounts of cash into the MoD and see very little come out in terms of actual improved military capability.

Worse still, by trying to make defence spending do many things at once, we wind up achieving none of them. The civilian jobs appear in tiny numbers given the money spent, and then require constant new spending or they disappear again. Over time they disappear anyway.

We don’t get the saleable products and export industries, either. And, rather than the people of Scotland feeling pleased that so much MoD work is placed there, there is a persistent myth among them that they get less than their share.

Experience has shown that some readers may not believe these things, so here are some examples.

A large amount of our defence industry nowadays belongs to just one company, BAE Systems plc. People still tend to refer to it as British Aerospace or BAe for all that the company changed its name 25 years ago. That made sense, as it is no longer British nor particularly focused on aerospace.

Long ago in the 1990s, not long after its creation by the government, BAe – as it then still was – had 127,000 British employees. It later absorbed other large British workforces such as that of Marconi.

Today, despite constant and enormous revenues from the British taxpayer throughout its existence, BAE has 93,000 employees worldwide. Barely 30,000 of them are in Britain.

Giving defence money to British companies does not even preserve British jobs, let alone create them. In this case, it has resulted in a British company using its UK revenues to move offshore.

Another popular way to spend defence money is on attempts to revive the British shipbuilding industry. There are often foolish dreams that dead shipyards, restarted by MoD contracts to build warships and fleet auxiliaries, could then go on to compete in building merchant shipping. Well-paid jobs in the yards would bring new life to post-industrial towns.

You would think people might have learned from the attempt in the early noughties to build two fleet auxiliary amphibious ships on Tyneside in the moribund Swan Hunter yard, which had built no ships since the 1980s.

The project was a disaster. It was planned to cost £148m with the ships delivered in 2004. By 2006, one ship had been delivered in terrible condition and one was launched but not fitted out. The government had been compelled to hand over no less than £309m.

Nobody on Tyneside had built a new ship from scratch for a long time: the yard was learning on the job, and the government had to keep giving it money just so it could pay its workers.

In the end, even the Labour government of the time realised that this was not sustainable and Swan Hunter closed down again. The ships were finished in Scotland.

This sort of thing illustrates the madness of trying to run military procurement as a social benefit scheme. And it shows us just why we get so little defence – such small amounts of military power – for our money.

But the lesson of Tyneside has not been learned. Another yard that has not built a ship for decades, Harland & Wolff in Belfast, is currently being reanimated with £1.6bn of defence money. Maybe one day the Royal Fleet Auxiliary will get the promised new fleet of solid support ships.

That would be nice as it only has one such vessel at the moment, RFA Fort Victoria – often, as now, broken down and without a crew – and a naval task force without a solid support ship is a sorry thing. But even Harland & Wolff don’t think they’ll have the job done until well into the 2030s, long after the coming crisis with Russia.

If the Swan Hunter project is any guide it will cost double, take much longer, and still not deliver usable ships in the end.

There are many other examples showing the folly of paying British industry to build things it does not know how to build. It is a longstanding problem which is now becoming very urgent.

We must shift to buying existing products off the shelf, very often from overseas makers. Creating civilian jobs, subsidising industries and bribing devolved regions should not be Ministry of Defence priorities: there are other budgets and departments for those things.

The Poles, understandably, have realised the urgency and are simply buying tanks from South Korea and weapons from the US: we should be doing similar things.

Specifically we should just buy some support ships from yards which can do the job now. We should just buy combat aircraft from America, rather than embarking on a foolish attempt to reinvent American wheels under the Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP, aka “Tempest”).

This shows every sign of turning into another disastrous money pit like Typhoon/Eurofighter before it and Tornado F3 before that. Again, even its backers admit that GCAP will not produce any usable equipment before 2035.

If Typhoon is any guide it will be many years after that before any aircraft appear and the cost will be titanic – enough to eat up any amount of extra funding for very little in the way of military effect. We spent £23bn to acquire our current fleet of 90-odd usable Typhoons, making them the most expensive fighter jets ever built anywhere.

They were also ridiculously late – an entire generation late, in fact. The first Typhoons went operational with the RAF in 2007. These aircraft have recently been described as “early fourth generation” by the MoD. Embarrassingly, the US air force had by then had the fifth-generation F-22 Raptor for two years.

Oh, and a note for the “let’s not be dependent on America” people: all advanced Western military equipment contains controlled US technology. The Typhoon cannot even be sold to anyone without US consent – and it’s pretty hard to sell anyway. It hasn’t been an export success.

We need more airpower a hell of a lot sooner than 2045 or so, and we need it to be reasonably up to date and effective. It’s time to take the GCAP money, double it at least, and start buying the only fifth-generation fighter which is available in the near term: the F-35 from America (partly British made, though).

We also need to buy the weapons and equipment which enabled the US to defeat three significant Soviet-equipped tank armies almost without loss in 1991, 2003 and 2011. We do not want to be forced to fight the horrifying meat-grinder war that the Ukrainians are fighting now: we want to fight the way “we” (actually the USA) fought against the Iraqis and the Libyans.

So no, it should not be a priority for us to build huge stockpiles of 155mm artillery shells and masses of guns to fire them from. That is First World War technology and it leads to a First World War situation, as we see now in Ukraine.

Nor should it be a priority – for us Britons at least – to build a massive armoured force centred on main battle tanks. We have seen a massive, heavily equipped tank army invade Ukraine, and we have seen that army stopped cold and mostly forced to withdraw by opponents who had few tanks, and old-fashioned ones at that.

Western tank enthusiasts – the great majority of serving and former Army officers among them – said that this failure was because Russian tanks aren’t very good and Russian commanders don’t know how to use them. Some doubt was cast on this when the Ukrainian counter-offensive, equipped with Western tanks, also failed.

Tanks and armour are not the war-winners that their advocates claim they are, and in any case our European allies have lots of them. But Iraqi and Libyan T-72s were not defeated by Western tanks, they were smashed from the air. This could be done because America had suppressed opposing air defences and ruled the skies: this is what we need to be able to do to Russia.

This is Suppression or Destruction of Enemy Air Defences, SEAD/DEAD. As Professor Justin Bronk of RUSI writes: “The Russian air force appears unable to do this, but, aside from the US, all other Nato air forces also lack this capacity … if the US was committed to a major war elsewhere or otherwise politically unwilling to shoulder the primary SEAD/DEAD responsibilities, Nato air forces would face similar problems establishing air superiority over territory contested by Russia.”

SEAD/DEAD is what we need: the capability that will let us smash Russian ground forces from the air, and avoid the bloody stalemate of Ukraine. It involves lots more F-35s, certainly, but also a lot of other new weapons and equipment.

It would be simpler and cheaper to just buy the stuff the Americans use, as it costs money and takes years to integrate non-American weapons and equipment onto the F-35.

We will also need more drones, more electronic warfare planes, more radar planes and more air refuelling tankers. We need a massive arsenal of long-ranging precision strike weapons, both air and surface launched: we should stuff our warships full of Tomahawk cruise missiles and arm our soldiers with the new US Precision Strike Missile.

We should make sure we can do SEAD/DEAD from our aircraft carriers as well as land bases: there are other enemies than Russia. That means equipping the ships with catapults and arrester wires, so that they can carry E-2 Hawkeye radar planes and EA-18G Growler electronic warfare birds – and probably some ordinary F-18s too.

That would also mean that we can switch from F-35B jump jets, which can’t carry as much fuel and weapons as other warplanes, to fully capable F-35C tailhook planes. Equipped in this way, our carrier air wings would also acquire the vital ability to conduct their own air-to-air refuelling.

And no, it would not cost huge sums to fit “cats and traps”: that idea was exposed as fiction some time ago. We would actually save a lot of money with the switch to tailhook jets.

There are many other things that our doubled defence budget will need to be spent on: speeding up the arrival of our new nuclear deterrent submarines so that the current occasional need for six-month patrols can be abandoned, for instance.

But the headline capability that today only the US has is SEAD/DEAD: that is what, in British hands, will not only be capable of defeating Russia – but better still, will deter Putin from making his move in the first place.

There is no time to mess about trying to have a pork-barrel industrial subsidy scheme as well. We need to prepare for war now.

SW1
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by SW1 »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 04 Feb 2024, 09:36 Controversial stuff from Mr Page.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... ar-russia/.
.[/box]
You can always rely on Mr Page to contradict himself and miss the point entirely.
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by SW1 »

topman wrote: 04 Feb 2024, 08:15 https://news.sky.com/story/uk-militarys ... n-13063630

'The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has publicly conceded just five people are recruited to the armed forces for every eight who leave - but the committee said it understood the situation may now be even worse.'
This has been the situation for while now and what have they done to start to rectify the situation?

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by topman »

SW1 wrote: 04 Feb 2024, 10:17
topman wrote: 04 Feb 2024, 08:15 https://news.sky.com/story/uk-militarys ... n-13063630

'The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has publicly conceded just five people are recruited to the armed forces for every eight who leave - but the committee said it understood the situation may now be even worse.'
This has been the situation for while now and what have they done to start to rectify the situation?
They being the MoD? Well not much, feeling is they need to jump through so many hoops up get any extra money from the treasury that their hands are tied.

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by Poiuytrewq »

SW1 wrote: 04 Feb 2024, 10:15 You can always rely on Mr Page to contradict himself and miss the point entirely.
Perhaps but it’s raises at least one interesting question.

If U.K. Defence Spending rises to 4% or 5% of GDP what is the plan to implement such a huge increase in spending.

“Britain must rearm”……great but none of the ‘jump on the bandwagon’ commentators appear able to illustrate coherently what that would look like in practical terms.

Regardless of funding, what is actually practically achievable in the next 5 years is a much more relevant discussion IMO than baseless calls for GDP percentage increases.
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by SW1 »

topman wrote: 04 Feb 2024, 10:45
SW1 wrote: 04 Feb 2024, 10:17
topman wrote: 04 Feb 2024, 08:15 https://news.sky.com/story/uk-militarys ... n-13063630

'The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has publicly conceded just five people are recruited to the armed forces for every eight who leave - but the committee said it understood the situation may now be even worse.'
This has been the situation for while now and what have they done to start to rectify the situation?
They being the MoD? Well not much, feeling is they need to jump through so many hoops up get any extra money from the treasury that their hands are tied.
Yes “they” being the MoD. Why am I not surprised. Such a big budget they manage and no ability to change priorities within it or rather no willingness to change priorities within it. Nero fiddled while Rome burned.

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by SW1 »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 04 Feb 2024, 10:50
SW1 wrote: 04 Feb 2024, 10:15 You can always rely on Mr Page to contradict himself and miss the point entirely.
Perhaps but it’s raises at least one interesting question.

If U.K. Defence Spending rises to 4% or 5% of GDP what is the plan to implement such a huge increase in spending.

“Britain must rearm”……great but none of the ‘jump on the bandwagon’ commentators appear able to illustrate coherently what that would look like in practical terms.

Regardless of funding, what is actually practically achievable in the next 5 years is a much more relevant discussion IMO than baseless calls for GDP percentage increases.
They have been presiding over an ever increasing personal outflow these past 4-5 years and stuck their head in the sand doing nothing about it. Presided over failing infrastructure for over a decade same response. Instead chirping more money more money then sulking when it doesn’t appear, put your house in order.

National resilience is defence and that does not mean buy American, time that was rammed into what appears to be a rather thick skull of the bandwagon commentaries and mod.

There is a complete disconnect to what defence of the UK and it’s territories means and what there favourite equipment program so many careers are built on is.

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by mrclark303 »

SW1 wrote: 04 Feb 2024, 10:59
Poiuytrewq wrote: 04 Feb 2024, 10:50
SW1 wrote: 04 Feb 2024, 10:15 You can always rely on Mr Page to contradict himself and miss the point entirely.
Perhaps but it’s raises at least one interesting question.

If U.K. Defence Spending rises to 4% or 5% of GDP what is the plan to implement such a huge increase in spending.

“Britain must rearm”……great but none of the ‘jump on the bandwagon’ commentators appear able to illustrate coherently what that would look like in practical terms.

Regardless of funding, what is actually practically achievable in the next 5 years is a much more relevant discussion IMO than baseless calls for GDP percentage increases.
They have been presiding over an ever increasing personal outflow these past 4-5 years and stuck their head in the sand doing nothing about it. Presided over failing infrastructure for over a decade same response. Instead chirping more money more money then sulking when it doesn’t appear, put your house in order.

National resilience is defence and that does not mean buy American, time that was rammed into what appears to be a rather thick skull of the bandwagon commentaries and mod.

There is a complete disconnect to what defence of the UK and it’s territories means and what there favourite equipment program so many careers are built on is.
The force disposition and structure needs to be decided by a proper SDSR, based on 3% GDP on defence, so approximately an additional £12 billion annually.

The mix of off the shelf and domestically procured procurement needs to be decided, that in itself is part of the larger question, re the speed we need to re-arm.

We should certainly go UK, where UK procurement is affordable (and actually deliverable) in the right timeframe.

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by SW1 »

mrclark303 wrote: 04 Feb 2024, 13:18
SW1 wrote: 04 Feb 2024, 10:59
Poiuytrewq wrote: 04 Feb 2024, 10:50
SW1 wrote: 04 Feb 2024, 10:15 You can always rely on Mr Page to contradict himself and miss the point entirely.
Perhaps but it’s raises at least one interesting question.

If U.K. Defence Spending rises to 4% or 5% of GDP what is the plan to implement such a huge increase in spending.

“Britain must rearm”……great but none of the ‘jump on the bandwagon’ commentators appear able to illustrate coherently what that would look like in practical terms.

Regardless of funding, what is actually practically achievable in the next 5 years is a much more relevant discussion IMO than baseless calls for GDP percentage increases.
They have been presiding over an ever increasing personal outflow these past 4-5 years and stuck their head in the sand doing nothing about it. Presided over failing infrastructure for over a decade same response. Instead chirping more money more money then sulking when it doesn’t appear, put your house in order.

National resilience is defence and that does not mean buy American, time that was rammed into what appears to be a rather thick skull of the bandwagon commentaries and mod.

There is a complete disconnect to what defence of the UK and it’s territories means and what there favourite equipment program so many careers are built on is.
The force disposition and structure needs to be decided by a proper SDSR, based on 3% GDP on defence, so approximately an additional £12 billion annually.

The mix of off the shelf and domestically procured procurement needs to be decided, that in itself is part of the larger question, re the speed we need to re-arm.

We should certainly go UK, where UK procurement is affordable (and actually deliverable) in the right timeframe.
When they come up with that “proper” structure and get 3% of gdp and blow that budget and make a mess of procurement and haven’t resolved personnel issues or career paths does the shouting start for 4% and all will be fine?

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by topman »

SW1 wrote: 04 Feb 2024, 10:52
topman wrote: 04 Feb 2024, 10:45
SW1 wrote: 04 Feb 2024, 10:17
topman wrote: 04 Feb 2024, 08:15 https://news.sky.com/story/uk-militarys ... n-13063630

'The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has publicly conceded just five people are recruited to the armed forces for every eight who leave - but the committee said it understood the situation may now be even worse.'
This has been the situation for while now and what have they done to start to rectify the situation?
They being the MoD? Well not much, feeling is they need to jump through so many hoops up get any extra money from the treasury that their hands are tied.
Yes “they” being the MoD. Why am I not surprised. Such a big budget they manage and no ability to change priorities within it or rather no willingness to change priorities within it. Nero fiddled while Rome burned.
Some of it as that, there's (from my perspective) quite a lot of pie in the sky (staff) work done that isn't realistic. Some of that is HQ level this is what we need to get the job done which is understandable on one level but a bit of a waste of time.

Some of the punting it to the Treasury is because they aren't allowed to spend without the ok from them. They may well want to take from pot a and put it in pot b, but they can't without HMT's ok. This can take 6-12 months for example for some sort of bonus for pinchpoint trades.

Poiuytrewq
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by Poiuytrewq »

SW1 wrote: 04 Feb 2024, 11:30 We could have build 4 vessels similar to the Italian cavour and crewed 3 of them with what we have spend and allocated crew to the cvf program or built 6 Canberra class and crewed 5. We made our bed.

It’s won’t be strategically unsustainable because as has been shown and for all the bluster and PR spin these things remain a niche capability within uk armed forces not a vital one.
Water under the bridge.

How can it be fixed in 5 years with 2.5% or 3% of GDP?

Money probably isn’t the biggest hurdle to overcome now.

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by SW1 »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 04 Feb 2024, 19:40
SW1 wrote: 04 Feb 2024, 11:30 We could have build 4 vessels similar to the Italian cavour and crewed 3 of them with what we have spend and allocated crew to the cvf program or built 6 Canberra class and crewed 5. We made our bed.

It’s won’t be strategically unsustainable because as has been shown and for all the bluster and PR spin these things remain a niche capability within uk armed forces not a vital one.
Water under the bridge.

How can it be fixed in 5 years with 2.5% or 3% of GDP?

Money probably isn’t the biggest hurdle to overcome now.
How can what be fixed? If you mean the carrier and wish to continue accept there will only ever be two and only 1 will ever be in use and do that 1 properly or you get rid and do something different.

If we continue to buy stuff we know full well we can’t sustain and act surprised when it all goes pear shaped but continue doing it anyway things will never change regardless of how much money is poured into it.

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by tomuk »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 04 Feb 2024, 10:50
SW1 wrote: 04 Feb 2024, 10:15 You can always rely on Mr Page to contradict himself and miss the point entirely.
Perhaps but it’s raises at least one interesting question.

If U.K. Defence Spending rises to 4% or 5% of GDP what is the plan to implement such a huge increase in spending.

“Britain must rearm”……great but none of the ‘jump on the bandwagon’ commentators appear able to illustrate coherently what that would look like in practical terms.

Regardless of funding, what is actually practically achievable in the next 5 years is a much more relevant discussion IMO than baseless calls for GDP percentage increases.
Well if you follow through on his suggestion the outcome would just be sending the extra 2% straight to the states.

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by Poiuytrewq »

tomuk wrote: 06 Feb 2024, 06:27 Well if you follow through on his suggestion the outcome would just be sending the extra 2% straight to the states.
In many instances this is exactly what is required.

• Double the P8 fleet
• Double Wedgetail procurement
• Double Protector procurement
• Add Sea Guardian or similar ideally STOL
• Purchase at least 70x UH-60 for NMH
• Purchase SF Chinooks as planned
• Rapidly procure new 5.56 rifle for Army
• Increase M270 numbers to 100
• Procure at least 100 wheeled MLRS
• Rapidly purchase 96x F35b
• Puchase VLS TLAM + Mk41 for T45/T26

The US is only one part of the equation. The Warrior replacement should be a rapid CV90 purchase with Rheinmetall replacing the AS90 alongside an additional Archer purchase from BAE plus a virtual doubling of the Boxer procurement. Tempest should be turbocharged with a significant funding injection. CH3 numbers should be set as high as possible and a replacement MBT program started immediately.

All of this can be at least partially achieved within 5 years if the money was made available with little negative impact to U.K. PLC apart from the helicopters which needs a rethink anyway.

The greatest challenge would be for the MoD to facilitate its implementation including the corresponding increase in headcount required.

Unfortunately very little can be achieved with RN/RFA in the next 5 years apart from making the most of what is in the water, sorting out what is happening with RM and solving the headcount crisis.

To a certain extent, that in itself would be enough.
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by tomuk »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 06 Feb 2024, 09:34
tomuk wrote: 06 Feb 2024, 06:27 Well if you follow through on his suggestion the outcome would just be sending the extra 2% straight to the states.
In many instances this is exactly what is required.

• Double the P8 fleet
• Double Wedgetail procurement
• Double Protector procurement
• Add Sea Guardian or similar ideally STOL
• Purchase at least 70x UH-60 for NMH
• Purchase SF Chinooks as planned
• Rapidly procure new 5.56 rifle for Army
• Increase M270 numbers to 100
• Procure at least 100 wheeled MLRS
• Rapidly purchase 96x F35b
• Puchase VLS TLAM + Mk41 for T45/T26

The US is only one part of the equation. The Warrior replacement should be a rapid CV90 purchase with Rheinmetall replacing the AS90 alongside an additional Archer purchase from BAE plus a virtual doubling of the Boxer procurement. Tempest should be turbocharged with a significant funding injection. CH3 numbers should be set as high as possible and a replacement MBT program started immediately.

All of this can be at least partially achieved within 5 years if the money was made available with little negative impact to U.K. PLC apart from the helicopters which needs a rethink anyway.

The greatest challenge would be for the MoD to facilitate its implementation including the corresponding increase in headcount required.

Unfortunately very little can be achieved with RN/RFA in the next 5 years apart from making the most of what is in the water, sorting out what is happening with RM and solving the headcount crisis.

To a certain extent, that in itself would be enough.
RAF and Army have similar headcount issues where are all the crews going to come from for all this kit?

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by mrclark303 »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 06 Feb 2024, 09:34
tomuk wrote: 06 Feb 2024, 06:27 Well if you follow through on his suggestion the outcome would just be sending the extra 2% straight to the states.
In many instances this is exactly what is required.

• Double the P8 fleet
• Double Wedgetail procurement
• Double Protector procurement
• Add Sea Guardian or similar ideally STOL
• Purchase at least 70x UH-60 for NMH
• Purchase SF Chinooks as planned
• Rapidly procure new 5.56 rifle for Army
• Increase M270 numbers to 100
• Procure at least 100 wheeled MLRS
• Rapidly purchase 96x F35b
• Puchase VLS TLAM + Mk41 for T45/T26

The US is only one part of the equation. The Warrior replacement should be a rapid CV90 purchase with Rheinmetall replacing the AS90 alongside an additional Archer purchase from BAE plus a virtual doubling of the Boxer procurement. Tempest should be turbocharged with a significant funding injection. CH3 numbers should be set as high as possible and a replacement MBT program started immediately.

All of this can be at least partially achieved within 5 years if the money was made available with little negative impact to U.K. PLC apart from the helicopters which needs a rethink anyway.

The greatest challenge would be for the MoD to facilitate its implementation including the corresponding increase in headcount required.

Unfortunately very little can be achieved with RN/RFA in the next 5 years apart from making the most of what is in the water, sorting out what is happening with RM and solving the headcount crisis.

To a certain extent, that in itself would be enough.
Total agreement as ever, Iall totally achievable on 3% GDP on defence too.
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by SW1 »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 06 Feb 2024, 09:34
tomuk wrote: 06 Feb 2024, 06:27 Well if you follow through on his suggestion the outcome would just be sending the extra 2% straight to the states.
In many instances this is exactly what is required.

• Double the P8 fleet
• Double Wedgetail procurement
• Double Protector procurement
• Add Sea Guardian or similar ideally STOL
• Purchase at least 70x UH-60 for NMH
• Purchase SF Chinooks as planned
• Rapidly procure new 5.56 rifle for Army
• Increase M270 numbers to 100
• Procure at least 100 wheeled MLRS
• Rapidly purchase 96x F35b
• Puchase VLS TLAM + Mk41 for T45/T26

The US is only one part of the equation. The Warrior replacement should be a rapid CV90 purchase with Rheinmetall replacing the AS90 alongside an additional Archer purchase from BAE plus a virtual doubling of the Boxer procurement. Tempest should be turbocharged with a significant funding injection. CH3 numbers should be set as high as possible and a replacement MBT program started immediately.

All of this can be at least partially achieved within 5 years if the money was made available with little negative impact to U.K. PLC apart from the helicopters which needs a rethink anyway.

The greatest challenge would be for the MoD to facilitate its implementation including the corresponding increase in headcount required.

Unfortunately very little can be achieved with RN/RFA in the next 5 years apart from making the most of what is in the water, sorting out what is happening with RM and solving the headcount crisis.

To a certain extent, that in itself would be enough.
Apart from sustaining the US industrial base at the expense of our own.

Would that list even be the priority spend areas?

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