Current & Future Amphibious Capability - General Discussion

[new guy]

More evidence of Ben Wallace being Ben Wallace and Grant Shapps being Grant Shapps.

[SW1]

The move would free more than 200 sailors to crew new ships.

If that's vaguely accurate, and we've only got roughly 200 crew for both, then it's time to sell them. Two very expensive assets that are still young enough to find buyers.

The Navy clearly don't care and have their priorities elsewhere. That's fine but pretending otherwise takes precious funds from those other places.

What a pitiful end to the amphibious fleet of 15-20 years ago though.

If only we hadn’t had 2 defence reviews in 3 years and put forward a coherent set of tasks to be done and by what.

Everything sacrificed on putting a single carrier to sea. The RM have been on borrowed time since 2010.

[Jensy]

If only we hadn’t had 2 defence reviews in 3 years and put forward a coherent set of tasks to be done and by what.

Nice to know the one thing Wallace appears to have successfully fought for has failed.

I hope the next government takes a bulldozer to Main Building.

[SW1]

If only we hadn’t had 2 defence reviews in 3 years and put forward a coherent set of tasks to be done and by what.

Nice to know the one thing Wallace appears to have successfully fought for has failed.

I hope the next government takes a bulldozer to Main Building.

There will be nothing changing, from what I can see there as bad as each other, incoherent and clueless the lot of them. In fact I think the current Labour lot are even worse if that possible.

[SW1]

If only we hadn’t had 2 defence reviews in 3 years and put forward a coherent set of tasks to be done and by what.

Nice to know the one thing Wallace appears to have successfully fought for has failed.

I hope the next government takes a bulldozer to Main Building.

There will be nothing changing, from what I can see there as bad as each other, incoherent and clueless the lot of them. In fact I think the current Labour lot are even worse if that possible.

Until very recently I didn't think I'd ever be voting Labour again. However the post-May trio have truly shone in their ineptitude for governance.

Will they be better? I suspect we'll find out in a few months to a year. Though it's stretching my imagination for how they could be worse.

The truth is our Politics is broken in ways we don't even appreciate. Much like every other advanced democracy. Which unfortunately has coincided with the return of significant hostile state actors in the shape of Russia, Iran and China. All with desires to expand their territory, and a complete disregard for the values that have underpinned the Post-War world.

[Poiuytrewq]

If that's vaguely accurate…

This has nothing to do with Frigates.

It’s all about operating both CVFs simultaneously.

The axe is swinging wildly now.

[shark bait]

Time to sell them and move on?

The LPDs have been untenable ever since the carriers hit the water, is the MOD going to continue to pretend otherwise?

[SW1]

If that's vaguely accurate…

This has nothing to do with Frigates.

It’s all about operating both CVFs simultaneously.

The axe is swinging wildly now.

Good thing we prioritised our future solid supply shipping too!

It's not as if we've exactly gone to town on our carrier strike capability and enablers.

Frankly the picture is the same in the other two services. Threadbare capability, with medicore support structures and zero appetite to reduce commitments or take tough decisions.

The Albions should have gone as soon as it was decided (forced by Brown) not to cancel the carriers. Would have made a great deal more sense than Ark Royal and eventually Ocean.


1000th post!

[SW1]

If that's vaguely accurate…

This has nothing to do with Frigates.

It’s all about operating both CVFs simultaneously.

The axe is swinging wildly now.

But without the airgroups or support ships to do it.

[Repulse]

But without the airgroups or support ships to do it.

Yet.

As others have said this was inevitable, and whilst the RM FCF remains a mystery, its inability to conduct brigade level ops over a beach is not.

[SW1]

But without the airgroups or support ships to do it.

Yet.

As others have said this was inevitable, and whilst the RM FCF remains a mystery, its inability to conduct brigade level ops over a beach is not.

And in your opinion when does yet become have?

[Repulse]

But without the airgroups or support ships to do it.

Yet.

As others have said this was inevitable, and whilst the RM FCF remains a mystery, its inability to conduct brigade level ops over a beach is not.

And in your opinion when does yet become have?

Depends on the what - CEPP has many aspects, some achievable today, so will be over the next five years with focus.

[SW1]

But without the airgroups or support ships to do it.

Yet.

As others have said this was inevitable, and whilst the RM FCF remains a mystery, its inability to conduct brigade level ops over a beach is not.

And in your opinion when does yet become have?

Depends on the what - CEPP has many aspects, some achievable today, so will be over the next five years with focus.

There is a single airgroup. I’ve seen no indications of an attempt to form a second air group or procure the aircraft and helicopters to do it. There is barely a single stores ship it will be 10 years until there is two. So I’m unsure how you have 2 carrier groups operating simultaneously.

[Poiuytrewq]

The Albions should have gone….

I don’t have an issue with the Albions going but they should be replaced with another vessel.

My preference is for a £1bn LHA operating with the 2x CVFs in rotation using 2 crews. IMO it’s sensible and pragmatic providing one permanently available LHA or CVF 2/3 of the time. No additional crew required.

The MRSS should then be cut to 4x £350m vessels such as Enforcer 14428 or 15628. Again no additional crew required.

Now that the LPDs are to be deleted this process needs to start now.

[inch]

No crews or soldiers,for Albion class or t23 or army easy solution bring back national conscription,that will solve the issue,and put a bit of backbone into the wimpy generation, starting with politicians who are forgetting what freedom takes and it's sometimes saying not nice things that get votes to protecting the country

[new guy]

But without the airgroups or support ships to do it.

Yet.

As others have said this was inevitable, and whilst the RM FCF remains a mystery, its inability to conduct brigade level ops over a beach is not.

And in your opinion when does yet become have?

Depends on the what - CEPP has many aspects, some achievable today, so will be over the next five years with focus.

There is a single airgroup. I’ve seen no indications of an attempt to form a second air group or procure the aircraft and helicopters to do it. There is barely a single stores ship it will be 10 years until there is two. So I’m unsure how you have 2 carrier groups operating simultaneously.

ONLY ONE CSG Group will operate at once.
You need two carriers to do that
We will have 3 FSSS in 8 years
Nobody ever said 2 CSG's at once unless in a complete emergency
the plan has been like this for more than a decade
Either you chose to ignore or you are blind.

[mrclark303]

No crews or soldiers,for Albion class or t23 or army easy solution bring back national conscription,that will solve the issue,and put a bit of backbone into the wimpy generation, starting with politicians who are forgetting what freedom takes and it's sometimes saying not nice things that get votes to protecting the country

I disagree Inch, conscription simply dosen't work in today's high tech armed forces.

The solution is 3% GDP on defence.

Step one, pay levels to recruit and retain the right personnel is absolutely critical.

Step two, is rebuilding mass into all three armed services, this needs a proper SDSR to ascertain the correct and modern disposition of force structure for today.

[donald_of_tokyo]

Simple question.

Defence is 2% GDP. Now RN is facing commercial sectors' pay rise and losing man-power.

But, as defence is 2% GDP, pay rise will simply invoke inflation and then increase GDP and then the payment budget shall also rise? But, it is not happening.

I know the issue is not this simple, but, what is the essential problem? Pay rise for the "hardware workers" (engineers, operators etc) is getting higher than other sectors rapidly?

[new guy]

No crews or soldiers,for Albion class or t23 or army easy solution bring back national conscription,that will solve the issue,and put a bit of backbone into the wimpy generation, starting with politicians who are forgetting what freedom takes and it's sometimes saying not nice things that get votes to protecting the country

Society has changed.

Really want more recruits? Use the internet. The US is using streamers and influencers (from the military) to attract recruits.

[new guy]

Also, contractors / Privatisation being shit (Credit to serco though)

[Repulse]

There is a single airgroup. I’ve seen no indications of an attempt to form a second air group or procure the aircraft and helicopters to do it. There is barely a single stores ship it will be 10 years until there is two. So I’m unsure how you have 2 carrier groups operating simultaneously.

Depends on where the carriers are operating and for how long - I do agree though that the FSS are key and two will be here in less than a decade.

Having both carriers operate simultaneously as F35B strike carriers is never going to happen, nor was it the plan. I do see however one carrier operating in strike mode and the other in amphibious mode, or both in hybrid roles with the assets planned. With the addition of drones, who knows, but will definitely open further options.

[SW1]

There is a single airgroup. I’ve seen no indications of an attempt to form a second air group or procure the aircraft and helicopters to do it. There is barely a single stores ship it will be 10 years until there is two. So I’m unsure how you have 2 carrier groups operating simultaneously.

Depends on where the carriers are operating and for how long - I do agree though that the FSS are key and two will be here in less than a decade.

Having both carriers operate simultaneously as F35B strike carriers is never going to happen, nor was it the plan. I do see however one carrier operating in strike mode and the other in amphibious mode, or both in hybrid roles with the assets planned. With the addition of drones, who knows, but will definitely open further options.

It is the asw merlin helicopter fleet that will determining factor no the f35 fleet.

Replacing a £300m pound LPH with a £3.5 billion pound one says all that needs to be said about uk defence pocurement.

[serge750]

The Albions should have gone….

I don’t have an issue with the Albions going but they should be replaced with another vessel.

My preference is for a £1bn LHA operating with the 2x CVFs in rotation using 2 crews. IMO it’s sensible and pragmatic providing one permanently available LHA or CVF 2/3 of the time. No additional crew required.

The MRSS should then be cut to 4x £350m vessels such as Enforcer 14428 or 15628. Again no additional crew required.

Now that the LPDs are to be deleted this process needs to start now.

Perhaps just selling 1 x LPD & using the remaing one as the third - 2 x QEC +1 x LPD used as a place holder until a LHD can be built, a Mistral or BAe design would be my preferance, then as you suggest cutting the MRSS, they will probably be cut anyway to save money... . & then at least it's partial cover for when a QEC goes in for a refit....

[serge750]

It is the asw merlin helicopter fleet that will determining factor no the f35 fleet.

Replacing a £300m pound LPH with a £3.5 billion pound one says all that needs to be said about uk defence pocurement.

Possibly, but would say actually UAVs will be a key determining factor also.

But it’s not just a LPH is it, we have two large multi-role flat-tops that can operate in a number of roles and also gives a level of redundancy.

[SW1]

It is the asw merlin helicopter fleet that will determining factor no the f35 fleet.

Replacing a £300m pound LPH with a £3.5 billion pound one says all that needs to be said about uk defence pocurement.

Possibly, but would say actually UAVs will be a key determining factor also.

But it’s not just a LPH is it, we have two large multi-role flat-tops that can operate in a number of roles and also gives a level of redundancy.

Who’s going to operate those UAVs they tend to need a lot of manpower?

Yes and could have been down at about 1/3rd of the cost and half the size with much less crew as has been demonstrated elsewhere in particular Italy which build cavour around the same time we embarked on this particular space odyssey.