Current & Future Amphibious Capability - General Discussion

[shark bait]

At 100m it's a wired hybrid between an OPV and LPH. Does this make the Portuguese the first to commit to a drone carrier? Will be an interesting one to watch.

[shark bait]

Once the potential of MALE STOL drones is fully understood it will be a high priority to get them on as many vessels as possible.

The utility of organic Naval aviation has been understood for decades. Crew or no crew onboard this does no change.

The limiting factor is how expensive it is. Operating any large fixed wing drone at sea is an intensive and expensive operation. Removing one pilot does not solve this problem.

An attritable drone offers an opportunity to lower cost at the expense of lower quality. While big high quality drones will be limited to the carriers, smaller 'consumable' drones could find a place in the rest of the fleet, perhaps replacing the role of wildcat today.

[Poiuytrewq]

The utility of organic Naval aviation has been understood for decades. Crew or no crew onboard this does no change.

Agreed.

The limiting factor is how expensive it is.

For how long? The price will collapse when mass production begins with multiple companies offering multiple options.

Operating any large fixed wing drone at sea is an intensive and expensive operation. Removing one pilot does not solve this problem.

Why? Compared to a F35 the complexity is of different magnitude.

Mojave can be shipped in a crate and operated from austere airstrips. A large but modestly equipped flattop would be more than good enough.

An attritable drone offers an opportunity to lower cost at the expense of lower quality. While big high quality drones will be limited to the carriers, smaller 'consumable' drones could find a place in the rest of the fleet, perhaps replacing the role of wildcat today.

One single multi use MALE STOL drone is absolutely the way to go. A multitude of bespoke systems will cost much more and reduce sovereign production and the benefits of spiral development.

The way to make the drones lower cost is to make the airframe as inexpensive as possible and the specific weapon and sensor capabilities modular. By only adding the sensors required for the individual deployment the cost of a lost airframe is vastly reduced.

In highly contested areas the MALE STOL drones could be virtually stripped out apart from the missiles required and networked to smaller, less observable and unarmed drones that provide the targeting data.

[Tempest414]

Once the potential of MALE STOL drones is fully understood it will be a high priority to get them on as many vessels as possible.

The utility of organic Naval aviation has been understood for decades. Crew or no crew onboard this does no change.

The limiting factor is how expensive it is. Operating any large fixed wing drone at sea is an intensive and expensive operation. Removing one pilot does not solve this problem.

An attritable drone offers an opportunity to lower cost at the expense of lower quality. While big high quality drones will be limited to the carriers, smaller 'consumable' drones could find a place in the rest of the fleet, perhaps replacing the role of wildcat today.

For me it is madness not to make MRSS a flattop and maybe the middle ground would be a buy of TB-3 which would allow long endurance recce and armed overwatch

[shark bait]

Why? Compared to a F35 the complexity is of different magnitude.

Mojave can be shipped in a crate and operated from austere airstrips. A large but modestly equipped flattop would be more than good enough.

Protector needs everything an F35 needs to operate, the pilot is just somewhere else.

Austere airstrips is a totally different game. It doesn't matter if a drone crashes and blows up on a dirt track. The same is not true for an aircraft carrier.

• Operating close to humans = Difficult.
• Operating close to humans + explosives = Difficult and dangerous.
• Operating close to humans + explosives + at sea = incredibly complex

[Tempest414]

Why? Compared to a F35 the complexity is of different magnitude.

Mojave can be shipped in a crate and operated from austere airstrips. A large but modestly equipped flattop would be more than good enough.

Protector needs everything an F35 needs to operate, the pilot is just somewhere else.

Austere airstrips is a totally different game. It doesn't matter if a drone crashes and blows up on a dirt track. The same is not true for an aircraft carrier.

• Operating close to humans = Difficult.
• Operating close to humans + explosives = Difficult and dangerous.
• Operating close to humans + explosives + at sea = incredibly complex

Quite agree but it dose not mean we should not go there all the above can be said for the first time we put a plane on a ship at sea

[shark bait]

The Royal Navy should definitely "go there", but not "on as many vessels as possible" as previously advised.

[Tempest414]

The Royal Navy should definitely "go there", but not "on as many vessels as possible" as previously advised.

For me we should be pushing Camcoptor on the Frigates and OPV's this pushes ISTAR out to 150Km for upto 6 hours maybe I would look at a Sniper quadcopter for the OPV's as well

As for the MRSS having MALE drones there needs to be limits for sure but something like TB3 would be the sweet spot

Having 2 carriers and 4 to 6 Flattop MRSS would cover a lot of options

[donald_of_tokyo]

Nice.

[Phil Sayers]

At 100m it's a wired hybrid between an OPV and LPH. Does this make the Portuguese the first to commit to a drone carrier? Will be an interesting one to watch.

Iran has built a drone carrier and it is currently undergoing sea trials:

[new guy]

Apparently real damen MRSS proposal


Adding to damen general range,
BMT ellida range,
And the BAE option.

[new guy]

I called it when BAE parcially unveiled it earlier this year.

[new guy]

And the BAE option.

The LPX concept reminds me somewhat of the Team UK FSS proposal.



P.S: From a rough measurement, assuming the ships are to scale and ASF is "around 130m" in length, the LPX design is about 200m long.

[shark bait]

Apparently real damen MRSS proposal

Looks like the Damen Enforcer reference design we've known about for years. It looks like a modern iteration of the Bay Class, which is no bad thing.

[new guy]

BAE LPX / MRSS design then



designed to operate as a littoral pack with ASF.
For more info we will have to wait on naval news article and video, which will not come for a few days as they have a lot to cover at the expo and have only just published their Turkish shipyard coverage, which they visited a week ago.
maybe 2 week and a bit till we get video and articles on both.

Strange no BAE press release or other news sources have said anything.
MRSS seems to be in even more dire danger with GAO announcement.



lastly, a the only other thing about the new BAE product, actually shown before the unveiling of it.

[new guy]

Apparently real damen MRSS proposal

Looks like the Damen Enforcer reference design we've known about for years. It looks like a modern iteration of the Bay Class, which is no bad thing.

Can't really tell if there is anything new until Naval news publishes. At most, a few minor design changes, but I am more interested in how they were marketing the 13226 variant, is that what they think MRSS/LPX will end up as?

[new guy]

Naval news video on BAE LPX is probably going to be given out today.

[Tempest414]

Apparently real damen MRSS proposal

Looks like the Damen Enforcer reference design we've known about for years. It looks like a modern iteration of the Bay Class, which is no bad thing.

Can't really tell if there is anything new until Naval news publishes. At most, a few minor design changes, but I am more interested in how they were marketing the 13226 variant, is that what they think MRSS/LPX will end up as?

its up on the

viewtopic.php?t=65&start=125

this is the starting point and no full requirement has been put out yet

[donald_of_tokyo]

[Poiuytrewq]

Very Interesting but at 18.5m will they fit in the davits on the Albions?

If not it will be another expensive refit only 5 years before the official OSD.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... t-concept/

[donald_of_tokyo]

Very Interesting but at 18.5m will they fit in the davits on the Albions?

If not it will be another expensive refit only 5 years before the official OSD.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... t-concept/

I understand the maneuver craft will be carried in the well dock. David for LCVPs cannot handle it, not only the length but more the width. No hope.

He says “a bit short of 40 tonnes”, I guess? So it is LCM level, not LCVP.

The davits can be used for USVs, as is.

It can even be modified to be a Wildcat hangar (will not happen).

[Poiuytrewq]

Fantastically atmospheric shots.

[Poiuytrewq]

Some interesting quotes here.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... quirement/

While the UK and Netherlands are working to maximise commonality, it is recognised that the respective MRSS and LPX requirements may ultimately demand different sized vessels. According to Keulen, the modular design of Enforcer family would enable a ‘common’ if not identical solution. “We can maximise commonality in power, propulsion, systems and accommodation even if the ships are scaled differently,” he said. “For example, both superstructure and dock can be sized in various dimensions while retaining the same basic architecture with regard to systems and internal arrangements.”

[SW1]

Albion and bulwark joining the frigates

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/4d0e ... 335ba47089]

Two amphibious assault ships are to be mothballed under government plans to make up for a severe sailor shortage in what critics have described as “the beginning of the end for the Royal Marines”.

Grant Shapps, the defence secretary, has put forward proposals to retire HMS Albion and HMS Bulwark from active service, The Times can reveal.

The move would free more than 200 sailors to crew new ships. But a source familiar with the plans said it would weaken the elite force by taking away one of its central purposes — storming beaches from the sea. “It would be the beginning of the end for the Royal Marines,” they said.

The manpower crisis is deemed so acute across the navy that the Ministry of Defence is also planning to decommission two older vessels, HMS Westminster and HMS Argyll, as soon as this year. The crews of all four ships would be sent to work across the new fleet of Type 26 frigates as they come into service.

It is understood that the Royal Navy has been pushing for the vessels to be scrapped and Royal Marine numbers to be slashed for years to spare other assets but Ben Wallace, the former defence secretary, repeatedly refused. He told senior naval chiefs that the sailors could be found from within the existing service, as thousands are currently in shore-based roles.

[Jensy]

The move would free more than 200 sailors to crew new ships.

If that's vaguely accurate, and we've only got roughly 200 crew for both, then it's time to sell them. Two very expensive assets that are still young enough to find buyers.

The Navy clearly don't care and have their priorities elsewhere. That's fine but pretending otherwise takes precious funds from those other places.

What a pitiful end to the amphibious fleet of 15-20 years ago though.