New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

[jedibeeftrix]

That sure looks like an 'exquisitely' expensive helicopter with all the bells and whistles to me, fits right on in with UK general procument policy, i.e, make it terrifyingly expensive and order half as many as we need, part of the 'Same old shit, different day' defence strategy that carries on ensuring we get sweet f#ck all for our £42 billion budget....

[Poiuytrewq]

That sure looks like an 'exquisitely' expensive helicopter with all the bells and whistles to me…

If they go with that it will be 30 units max.

The Puma extension has likely cost the program about 10 units already.

[Poiuytrewq]

That sure looks like an 'exquisitely' expensive helicopter with all the bells and whistles to me…

If they go with that it will be 30 units max.

The Puma extension has likely cost the program about 10 units already.

Totally mate, my guess would be 25 tops when we need 44.

I think we can just resign ourselves to the inevitable Wastelands Circus....

[Jensy]

That sure looks like an 'exquisitely' expensive helicopter with all the bells and whistles to me…

If they go with that it will be 30 units max.

The Puma extension has likely cost the program about 10 units already.

Not to mention the rebuilds and new engines a decade ago. Back when AW would have jumped at the opportunity to build AW149 at Yeovil.

On a semi-related note, all seems to have gone quiet on the new Chinooks since Big Ben sulked off into the sunset.

[Poiuytrewq]

On a semi-related note, all seems to have gone quiet on the new Chinooks since Big Ben sulked off into the sunset.

The recent silence likely points to one of two plausible scenarios.

Either the UK is getting the amazing capable and highly expensive Chinooks as planned or the contract has been cancelled/reduced to enable a much larger NMH procurement of around 50-60 units.

All things considered, which is more plausible?

[Jensy]

On a semi-related note, all seems to have gone quiet on the new Chinooks since Big Ben sulked off into the sunset.

The recent silence likely points to one of two plausible scenarios.

Either the UK is getting the amazing capable and highly expensive Chinooks as planned or the contract has been cancelled/reduced to enable a much larger NMH procurement of around 50-60 units.

All things considered, which is more plausible?

Plausible or not, if we get more than 40 NMH of any flavour I'll be very happy!

Gucci Chinooks seem like a luxury at the moment and they don't particularly fit in with our planned Littoral shenanigans either.

Were we flush enough to afford £2.3bn for them, I'd rather spend some of it on additional HC4s alongside NMH.

[mrclark303]

On a semi-related note, all seems to have gone quiet on the new Chinooks since Big Ben sulked off into the sunset.

The recent silence likely points to one of two plausible scenarios.

Either the UK is getting the amazing capable and highly expensive Chinooks as planned or the contract has been cancelled/reduced to enable a much larger NMH procurement of around 50-60 units.

All things considered, which is more plausible?

Plausible or not, if we get more than 40 NMH of any flavour I'll be very happy!

Gucci Chinooks seem like a luxury at the moment and they don't particularly fit in with our planned Littoral shenanigans either.

Were we flush enough to afford £2.3bn for them, I'd rather spend some of it on additional HC4s alongside NMH.

Certainly, we need more than the pathetic 25 HC4's, there's little to zero chance of getting more, so with littoral combat in mind, we need to ensure the replacement Medium helicopter is at least seaworthy, able to operate from a pitching deck, deck tie down points and ship compatible avionics....

It's a no brainer....

[Poiuytrewq]

Plausible or not, if we get more than 40 NMH of any flavour I'll be very happy!

Gucci Chinooks seem like a luxury at the moment and they don't particularly fit in with our planned Littoral shenanigans either.

Were we flush enough to afford £2.3bn for them, I'd rather spend some of it on additional HC4s alongside NMH.

The fastest way to increase Merlin availability is to get ASaC onto MALE STOL drones asap. Once Mojave lands on PWLS hopefully the scramble will begin.

If the SF Chinook order has been scaled back to boost NMH numbers the next question will be what to do with all those Army Wildcats where the crossover will be huge.

[Little J]

If the SF Chinook order has been scaled back to boost NMH numbers the next question will be what to do with all those Army Wildcats where the crossover will be huge.

12 refitted to HMA.2, the rest used in a MH-6 Little Bird style role (forward firing M134 mini guns etc)

[mrclark303]

If the SF Chinook order has been scaled back to boost NMH numbers the next question will be what to do with all those Army Wildcats where the crossover will be huge.

12 refitted to HMA.2, the rest used in a MH-6 Little Bird style role (forward firing M134 mini guns etc)

They would actually have a use with the AAC if they had a modicum of scouting gear and pylon weapons carrying capability.

The door pintle mounted Gimpy is about as useful as a chocolate tea pot in any meaningful way, purely a defensive weapon.

"Fitted for but not with", the mantra of our Procurement policy.....

[Jensy]

Another day, and other inexplicable MoD decision.

Six brand new H145s for Brunei and Cyprus.



Where this leaves the remainder of NMH is anyone's guess.

As always, when something involves the RAF and helicopters, I suspect they want more Chinooks, regardless of the cost. With anything that stands in the way getting a bullet to the back of the head.

[topman]

Brunei and cyprus have, for years, had different fleets to the ones in the uk. Not that much unusual in this decision which has nothing to do with chinooks.

[SW1]

Brunei and cyprus have, for years, had different fleets to the ones in the uk. Not that much unusual in this decision which has nothing to do with chinooks.

The central argument of NMH was moving away from small and diverse fleets. Whatever logic might be served by having small fleets of a widely used dual use helicopter in those locations, this announcement seems to contradict the wider programme aims.

[new guy]

Brunei and cyprus have, for years, had different fleets to the ones in the uk. Not that much unusual in this decision which has nothing to do with chinooks.

The central argument of NMH was moving away from small and diverse fleets. Whatever logic might be served by having small fleets of a widely used dual use helicopter in those locations, this announcement seems to contradict the wider programme aims.

I mean we already operate a large number of H145's for training, so a common type there.
And Cyprus and Brunei don't need say a black hawk or AW149 at all, so much cheaper.

[new guy]

Don't we have a bunch of H135's sitting in a hanger rotting as gazelle replacements?

[new guy]

Brunei and cyprus have, for years, had different fleets to the ones in the uk. Not that much unusual in this decision which has nothing to do with chinooks.

The central argument of NMH was moving away from small and diverse fleets. Whatever logic might be served by having small fleets of a widely used dual use helicopter in those locations, this announcement seems to contradict the wider programme aims.

I mean we already operate a large number of H145's for training, so a common type there.
And Cyprus and Brunei don't need say a black hawk or AW149 at all, so much cheaper.

Unfortunately this didn't seem to occur to anyone until several years after embarking on a programme for 36-44 common medium helos, which was supposed to support domestic industry.

Don't we have a bunch of H135's sitting in a hanger rotting as gazelle replacements?

For now. Though the plan is to sell them.

Meanwhile, in France:



P.S: The H145M brochure is interesting reading. Much more capable bird than its smaller sister:
https://mediaassets.airbus.com/pm_38_37 ... gvvqky.pdf

[new guy]

Yes, what the french do is amassing.

Didn't the Germans pick the AH145 as an attack helicopter / utility?

[sol]

Didn't the Germans pick the AH145 as an attack helicopter / utility?

There is/was idea for it but not definite decision. And it was mostly political decision driven by German MoD as Bundeswehr is/was not happy at all with it as they considering it totally unsuitable for that role. I think that I read somewhere that it was dropped but I am not 100% sure.

[SW1]

Brunei and cyprus have, for years, had different fleets to the ones in the uk. Not that much unusual in this decision which has nothing to do with chinooks.

The central argument of NMH was moving away from small and diverse fleets. Whatever logic might be served by having small fleets of a widely used dual use helicopter in those locations, this announcement seems to contradict the wider programme aims.

I mean we already operate a large number of H145's for training, so a common type there.
And Cyprus and Brunei don't need say a black hawk or AW149 at all, so much cheaper.

Unfortunately this didn't seem to occur to anyone until several years after embarking on a programme for 36-44 common medium helos, which was supposed to support domestic industry.

Don't we have a bunch of H135's sitting in a hanger rotting as gazelle replacements?

For now. Though the plan is to sell them.

Meanwhile, in France:



P.S: The H145M brochure is interesting reading. Much more capable bird than its smaller sister:
https://mediaassets.airbus.com/pm_38_37 ... gvvqky.pdf

The new 5 blade h145 is really very good especially hot and high. I wonder if they will be contractor operated in Cyprus and Brunei. We do seem to be going round in circles with this but what else is new they’ve been doing it for near 25 years with helicopters now.

We operate a handful I think many for winch training most of the training fleet are h135.

France have the right idea the h160 will do well for them. I really do wish we did something similar. We have 15 sqns in helicopter command operating 5 different types with 5 flight/sqns doing conversion training before we get to the naval helicopters. It’s why we end up with small numbers of deployed helicopters of different types.

[new guy]

What helicopters does the H160 replace in the french armed forces?

[topman]

Brunei and cyprus have, for years, had different fleets to the ones in the uk. Not that much unusual in this decision which has nothing to do with chinooks.

The central argument of NMH was moving away from small and diverse fleets. Whatever logic might be served by having small fleets of a widely used dual use helicopter in those locations, this announcement seems to contradict the wider programme aims.

Central aim suggests there are other aims. As programs change, in length or budget, priorities move up and down.

I'm not sure i agree with the argument for this, however there is some logic behind it. It's not completely mad as it seems at first glance.

[new guy]

What helicopters does the H160 replace in the french armed forces?

Marine Nationale:
Alouette III
Dauphin
Panther

French Air Force:
Fennec
Puma

French Army:
Gazelle
Fennec
Puma

c.420 aircraft, with some designs 65 odd years old, replaced by 169 vastly more capable.

[mrclark303]

Another day, and other inexplicable MoD decision.

Six brand new H145s for Brunei and Cyprus.



Where this leaves the remainder of NMH is anyone's guess.

As always, when something involves the RAF and helicopters, I suspect they want more Chinooks, regardless of the cost. With anything that stands in the way getting a bullet to the back of the head.

This really isn't good news, any move away from a common fleet of 40 odd Helicopters starts to degrade the potential new fleet of whatever is eventually purchased.

Buy fewer airframes and the unit cost and maintenance and support fees rise accordingly....

It's looking more and more like a pointless tiny order for 25 to me, probably kicked into the long grass for the next government to figure out...

[Little J]

Don't we have a bunch of H135's sitting in a hanger rotting as gazelle replacements?

I was just going to ask this!?!

I think we need a clear-out of Whitehall, my Nan could do a better job of it and she's been dead for 25 years!!!

[mrclark303]

What helicopters does the H160 replace in the french armed forces?

Marine Nationale:
Alouette III
Dauphin
Panther

French Air Force:
Fennec
Puma

French Army:
Gazelle
Fennec
Puma

c.420 aircraft, with some designs 65 odd years old, replaced by 169 vastly more capable.

A step down in lift capability to the Puma though, 16 troops as opposed to 9?

I suppose if the French army have more of them than the outgoing Puma, then it's offset.

The H160 sounds like the helicopter the AAC should have got instead of the Wildcat.

Double the troop lift and I'll bet half the cost of Wildcat.