Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
User avatar
mrclark303
Donator
Posts: 892
Joined: 06 May 2015, 10:47
United Kingdom

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by mrclark303 »

SW1 wrote: 06 Nov 2023, 17:55
SiVisPacemParaBellum wrote: 06 Nov 2023, 17:27 Am I the only one who sees a correlation between germany possibly opting for GCAP and RUSI releasing an article that more money is needed?

Apart from that: Germany will try to seal a GCAP participation asap if Scholz actually decides to abandon FCAS - which is still pretty unlikely imho.
The rusi article is months old and was discussed months ago when released. Mr bronk who wrote it a cheerleader for buy American and is very good a pr for us defence primes.
I think Germany will probably strike a 180 aircraft F35A deal with German assembly and some construction, if they pull out of FCAS.

GCAP doesn't fit German requirements, F35A fits it like a glove in size and capability, it's 'almost' a done deal for LM.

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 5804
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SW1 »

mrclark303 wrote: 06 Nov 2023, 18:22
SW1 wrote: 06 Nov 2023, 17:55
SiVisPacemParaBellum wrote: 06 Nov 2023, 17:27 Am I the only one who sees a correlation between germany possibly opting for GCAP and RUSI releasing an article that more money is needed?

Apart from that: Germany will try to seal a GCAP participation asap if Scholz actually decides to abandon FCAS - which is still pretty unlikely imho.
The rusi article is months old and was discussed months ago when released. Mr bronk who wrote it a cheerleader for buy American and is very good a pr for us defence primes.
I think Germany will probably strike a 180 aircraft F35A deal with German assembly and some construction, if they pull out of FCAS.

GCAP doesn't fit German requirements, F35A fits it like a glove in size and capability, it's 'almost' a done deal for LM.
If your specifically looking at Germany it bought f35a for the nuclear mission the Americans were not allowing b61 integration on any other aircraft and the Germans wanted to retain the air delivered nuclear capability it has with tornado.

As for the rest it is ordering the very latest version of typhoon it will not require another manned fighter for at least 40 years from this point. What it will want standoff weapons and unmanned systems it can integrate with the typhoon in particular. We aren’t in that much of a different position.

The fighter plans are largely industrial and strategic partnerships that are driving it.

User avatar
Jensy
Moderator
Posts: 1123
Joined: 05 Aug 2016, 19:44
United Kingdom

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Jensy »

SW1 wrote: 06 Nov 2023, 17:55
SiVisPacemParaBellum wrote: 06 Nov 2023, 17:27 Am I the only one who sees a correlation between germany possibly opting for GCAP and RUSI releasing an article that more money is needed?

Apart from that: Germany will try to seal a GCAP participation asap if Scholz actually decides to abandon FCAS - which is still pretty unlikely imho.
The rusi article is months old and was discussed months ago when released. Mr bronk who wrote it a cheerleader for buy American and is very good at pr for US defence primes.
Quite so.

Without getting too sweary, or libellous, I would use Bronk as an accurate barometer of when the U.S. Military Industrial Complex feels threatened by foreign competition, or fears losing a captive customer. I say this as a confirmed Atlanticist and consistently pro-American.

As for Berlin, Germany has no overseas commitments beyond NATO and no meaningful EEZ. I would say their perfect partner would be Sweden as both their timeframes lines up perfectly for a Gripen NG/Tiffy replacement (2045-onward). Assuming Saab is still a going concern by then.

SCAF, a carrier capable, nuclear bomber seems a very poor fit for the Luftwaffe. Even the nuclear part is unlikely to be compatible as it's focused on the French deterrent and (as SW1 above notes), they have 'Fat Amys' on their way for B-61 delivery which will keep them going past 2060.

From a UK perspective, I see big potential for working on a remote carrier with them. Not an inhabited platform, at least for a decade plus.
mrclark303 wrote: 06 Nov 2023, 18:22 I think Germany will probably strike a 180 aircraft F35A deal with German assembly and some construction, if they pull out of FCAS.

GCAP doesn't fit German requirements, F35A fits it like a glove in size and capability, it's 'almost' a done deal for LM.
Let's not forget the Lock bit of LockMart is a dab hand at winning German fighter competitions through bribery and corruption. That said German industry is a powerful voice in the Bundestag, so it could be one hell of a battle.

The sooner we get moving with out Italian and Japanese partners the better. I'm hoping Hunt goes out with a legacy, having talked big on defence during his year as Foreign Sec. We are the originator of the partnership and would likely kill it if we fail to go forward.
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!" - Dr. Strangelove (1964)

SiVisPacemParaBellum
Member
Posts: 26
Joined: 16 Dec 2022, 15:58
Germany

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SiVisPacemParaBellum »

mrclark303 wrote: 06 Nov 2023, 18:22
SW1 wrote: 06 Nov 2023, 17:55
SiVisPacemParaBellum wrote: 06 Nov 2023, 17:27 Am I the only one who sees a correlation between germany possibly opting for GCAP and RUSI releasing an article that more money is needed?

Apart from that: Germany will try to seal a GCAP participation asap if Scholz actually decides to abandon FCAS - which is still pretty unlikely imho.
The rusi article is months old and was discussed months ago when released. Mr bronk who wrote it a cheerleader for buy American and is very good a pr for us defence primes.
I think Germany will probably strike a 180 aircraft F35A deal with German assembly and some construction, if they pull out of FCAS.

GCAP doesn't fit German requirements, F35A fits it like a glove in size and capability, it's 'almost' a done deal for LM.
Germany will strike a deal with Germany :lol:
Germany currently posses 85 Tornados (IDS + ECR) and 140 Eurofighter Typhoons.
33 out of 140 are T1 aircraft which will be replaced by 38 T4 Typhoons.
The Bundestag will prbly also approve 15 additional T4 ECR Typhoons by 15.11.23.
They also ordered 35 F-35s to replace a part of the Tornados.
Which means that we'll be looking at 160 Typhoons, 35 F-35s and 50 Tornados.
There are two options to replace the remaining Tornados:
Replace them with another Batch (35-50) of F-35s (highly unlikely).
Or replace them with T5 Typhoons which is the most probable outcome - some sources even suggest an order by mid 2025.
I'd say that 50-60 T5 Typhoons and 15 additional T5 ECR Typhoons are a pretty likely order.
This means that Germany will be looking at a fleet of 35 F-35s + 225-235 Typhoons by the mid 30s.

A Fleet of +250 4.5th and 5th gen Fighters, europe's most capable airlift capacity and air defence is imho pretty impressive.

Coming to GCAP/FCAS/F-35:
I think that the german politicians will Stick to FCAS and I do also expect it to be realized and ordered in sufficient Numbers.
What are the most likely alternatives?
I'd say
1. National 5th gen development based on the Typhoon
2. More F-35s (to replace) T2 Typhoons
3. Joint program with Sweden to develop a 5th gen Fighter

However Germany will focus itself on the production of Drones. I'd say that a SOJ, ECR and loyal Wingman drone are likely to be build.
Germany will either develop them as a part of FCAS or alone - to Supplement Typhoons or F-35s in the future.

Meriv9
Member
Posts: 185
Joined: 05 Feb 2016, 00:19
Italy

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Meriv9 »

:lol: Poor swedish they are contended by everyone.

Image
These users liked the author Meriv9 for the post:
new guy

Meriv9
Member
Posts: 185
Joined: 05 Feb 2016, 00:19
Italy

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Meriv9 »

On the need of Germany of a plane like GCAP lets remember that they were asking a way heavier plane than what the french needs (since they are restricted by carrier take off weight).

Even if they don't have the sea we Italians, UK and Japanese have they are still a second line country by now and thus a long range superiority fighter is still needed.

I think both UK and Germans benefited from the news. The Germans got a bargain chip against the French and UK towards the budget.
The article was this one i believe.
https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-resear ... -cant-cash

On merging programs you very well know that AMI has been mentioning it from the beginning, we tried to join the FCAS but we got bounced by the french that clearly stated they didnt want other partners and just clients ( LOL at their rage when the spanish choose Indra in place of Airbus spain).

I would prefer staying with the Japanese, sooner or later their arms export is going to catch up speed, i don't think the Koreans can keep up their military rhythm and probably will end up with a lost decade like it happened to the Japanese.

It is way easier to divide the world in the GCAP with the Japanese taking the Asian export market, the Saudi the Muslim, and Italy and Uk already work well under Leonardo. We don't produce engines and have few overlapping sectors.

If we get the Germans and thus the Spanish we will have to deal with localized dynamics, often isn't German federal government the problem but their Lands that have too much leverage. The Greek crisis went from 10bln bail out to 300 because Merkel had to wait out elections in a main Land. Something I don't believe will happen with the Japanese and the Saudis that have way more centralized government.

Meriv9
Member
Posts: 185
Joined: 05 Feb 2016, 00:19
Italy

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Meriv9 »

Some articles from the French forum

https://meta-defense.fr/it/2023/11/04/e ... a_europea/
(I think it autotranslates to the readers language)

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... ty-drones/
Gerhartz said he also wants to push the tempo on a dedicated strike drone for Germany. The larger vehicle class is internationally dubbed a UCAV, short for unmanned combat aerial vehicle.

France’s national lead for FCAS, Dassault Aviation, has been developing such a weapon for years, in parallel to the trinational program, Gerhartz noted.

“Now were are looking for partners to push UCAV, or loyal wingman, on our side,” he said. “We need that earlier.”
A partner doesnt speak like this, they are in full competitive mode with the french. Don't know how you can collaborate with that attitude.

https://www.nzz.ch/wirtschaft/die-europ ... ld.1746041
Question:We heard that the Germans did not really want to participate in FCAS. But the French tied the project to the gas pipeline through France to bring Spanish gas to Germany. Is that correct?heard that the Germans did not really want to FCAS Participate. But the French tied the project to the gas pipeline through France to bring Spanish gas to Germany. Is that correct?

Answer:We must ask the German Chancellor and the French president. FCAS has always been Plan A. We are pleased that the partners were able to agree. Of course, responsible management needs to think about what might happen. The Tempest programme, in which the British and Italians participate, would certainly have been an alternative. We continue to have excellent relationships with BAE Systems and the United Kingdom. I also fundamentally believe that things can still be SORTed out at FCAS and Tempest
And in this Swiss interview we can see how German industry is the one that dictates where the country goes.
These users liked the author Meriv9 for the post:
mrclark303

SiVisPacemParaBellum
Member
Posts: 26
Joined: 16 Dec 2022, 15:58
Germany

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SiVisPacemParaBellum »

Meriv9 wrote: 06 Nov 2023, 23:25 Some articles from the French forum

https://meta-defense.fr/it/2023/11/04/e ... a_europea/
(I think it autotranslates to the readers language)

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... ty-drones/
Gerhartz said he also wants to push the tempo on a dedicated strike drone for Germany. The larger vehicle class is internationally dubbed a UCAV, short for unmanned combat aerial vehicle.

France’s national lead for FCAS, Dassault Aviation, has been developing such a weapon for years, in parallel to the trinational program, Gerhartz noted.

“Now were are looking for partners to push UCAV, or loyal wingman, on our side,” he said. “We need that earlier.”
A partner doesnt speak like this, they are in full competitive mode with the french. Don't know how you can collaborate with that attitude.

https://www.nzz.ch/wirtschaft/die-europ ... ld.1746041
Question:We heard that the Germans did not really want to participate in FCAS. But the French tied the project to the gas pipeline through France to bring Spanish gas to Germany. Is that correct?heard that the Germans did not really want to FCAS Participate. But the French tied the project to the gas pipeline through France to bring Spanish gas to Germany. Is that correct?

Answer:We must ask the German Chancellor and the French president. FCAS has always been Plan A. We are pleased that the partners were able to agree. Of course, responsible management needs to think about what might happen. The Tempest programme, in which the British and Italians participate, would certainly have been an alternative. We continue to have excellent relationships with BAE Systems and the United Kingdom. I also fundamentally believe that things can still be SORTed out at FCAS and Tempest
And in this Swiss interview we can see how German industry is the one that dictates where the country goes.
The industry isn't calling the shots - they never wanted FCAS in the first place.
But they have enough influence to bother the francophiles.
But no matter how it ends:
Germany will either get more favorable conditions in FCAS or the federal govt will be forced to invest more into the Typhoon production.
And who knows - maybe Scholz and Sunak are already negotiating GCAP.

User avatar
mrclark303
Donator
Posts: 892
Joined: 06 May 2015, 10:47
United Kingdom

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by mrclark303 »

Meriv9 wrote: 06 Nov 2023, 23:25 Some articles from the French forum

https://meta-defense.fr/it/2023/11/04/e ... a_europea/
(I think it autotranslates to the readers language)

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... ty-drones/
Gerhartz said he also wants to push the tempo on a dedicated strike drone for Germany. The larger vehicle class is internationally dubbed a UCAV, short for unmanned combat aerial vehicle.

France’s national lead for FCAS, Dassault Aviation, has been developing such a weapon for years, in parallel to the trinational program, Gerhartz noted.

“Now were are looking for partners to push UCAV, or loyal wingman, on our side,” he said. “We need that earlier.”
A partner doesnt speak like this, they are in full competitive mode with the french. Don't know how you can collaborate with that attitude.

https://www.nzz.ch/wirtschaft/die-europ ... ld.1746041
Question:We heard that the Germans did not really want to participate in FCAS. But the French tied the project to the gas pipeline through France to bring Spanish gas to Germany. Is that correct?heard that the Germans did not really want to FCAS Participate. But the French tied the project to the gas pipeline through France to bring Spanish gas to Germany. Is that correct?

Answer:We must ask the German Chancellor and the French president. FCAS has always been Plan A. We are pleased that the partners were able to agree. Of course, responsible management needs to think about what might happen. The Tempest programme, in which the British and Italians participate, would certainly have been an alternative. We continue to have excellent relationships with BAE Systems and the United Kingdom. I also fundamentally believe that things can still be SORTed out at FCAS and Tempest
And in this Swiss interview we can see how German industry is the one that dictates where the country goes.
I think those of us with an interest (and a dog in the fight), will be very happy when the GCAP contract has been signed by the three main countries, plus possibly Saudi Arabia.

Tempest is going to leave FCAS standing in development terms, the partners are eager to get an injection of cash and get cracking!

In the meantime, FCAS seems to be faltering and fighting for its survival.

SD67
Senior Member
Posts: 1138
Joined: 23 Jul 2019, 09:49
United Kingdom

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

Meriv9 wrote: 06 Nov 2023, 23:25 Some articles from the French forum

https://meta-defense.fr/it/2023/11/04/e ... a_europea/
(I think it autotranslates to the readers language)

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... ty-drones/
Gerhartz said he also wants to push the tempo on a dedicated strike drone for Germany. The larger vehicle class is internationally dubbed a UCAV, short for unmanned combat aerial vehicle.

France’s national lead for FCAS, Dassault Aviation, has been developing such a weapon for years, in parallel to the trinational program, Gerhartz noted.

“Now were are looking for partners to push UCAV, or loyal wingman, on our side,” he said. “We need that earlier.”
A partner doesnt speak like this, they are in full competitive mode with the french. Don't know how you can collaborate with that attitude.

https://www.nzz.ch/wirtschaft/die-europ ... ld.1746041
Question:We heard that the Germans did not really want to participate in FCAS. But the French tied the project to the gas pipeline through France to bring Spanish gas to Germany. Is that correct?heard that the Germans did not really want to FCAS Participate. But the French tied the project to the gas pipeline through France to bring Spanish gas to Germany. Is that correct?

Answer:We must ask the German Chancellor and the French president. FCAS has always been Plan A. We are pleased that the partners were able to agree. Of course, responsible management needs to think about what might happen. The Tempest programme, in which the British and Italians participate, would certainly have been an alternative. We continue to have excellent relationships with BAE Systems and the United Kingdom. I also fundamentally believe that things can still be SORTed out at FCAS and Tempest
And in this Swiss interview we can see how German industry is the one that dictates where the country goes.
Agreed, and bearing that in mind the only way I can see Germany participating is in a straight licensing deal for local production

SiVisPacemParaBellum
Member
Posts: 26
Joined: 16 Dec 2022, 15:58
Germany

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SiVisPacemParaBellum »

SD67 wrote: 07 Nov 2023, 11:20
Meriv9 wrote: 06 Nov 2023, 23:25 Some articles from the French forum

https://meta-defense.fr/it/2023/11/04/e ... a_europea/
(I think it autotranslates to the readers language)

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... ty-drones/
Gerhartz said he also wants to push the tempo on a dedicated strike drone for Germany. The larger vehicle class is internationally dubbed a UCAV, short for unmanned combat aerial vehicle.

France’s national lead for FCAS, Dassault Aviation, has been developing such a weapon for years, in parallel to the trinational program, Gerhartz noted.

“Now were are looking for partners to push UCAV, or loyal wingman, on our side,” he said. “We need that earlier.”
A partner doesnt speak like this, they are in full competitive mode with the french. Don't know how you can collaborate with that attitude.

https://www.nzz.ch/wirtschaft/die-europ ... ld.1746041
Question:We heard that the Germans did not really want to participate in FCAS. But the French tied the project to the gas pipeline through France to bring Spanish gas to Germany. Is that correct?heard that the Germans did not really want to FCAS Participate. But the French tied the project to the gas pipeline through France to bring Spanish gas to Germany. Is that correct?

Answer:We must ask the German Chancellor and the French president. FCAS has always been Plan A. We are pleased that the partners were able to agree. Of course, responsible management needs to think about what might happen. The Tempest programme, in which the British and Italians participate, would certainly have been an alternative. We continue to have excellent relationships with BAE Systems and the United Kingdom. I also fundamentally believe that things can still be SORTed out at FCAS and Tempest
And in this Swiss interview we can see how German industry is the one that dictates where the country goes.
Agreed, and bearing that in mind the only way I can see Germany participating is in a straight licensing deal for local production
I can guarantee you that Germany won't become a BAE customer.
This isn't going to happen.

Meriv9
Member
Posts: 185
Joined: 05 Feb 2016, 00:19
Italy

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Meriv9 »

I think on that we can agree, if the conflict with the Dassault will make the FCAS crash, because Airbus want to be treated equally than Dassault, there would be even less chances of them becoming simple customers of the GCAP.

The thing is
1. National 5th gen development based on the Typhoon
2. More F-35s (to replace) T2 Typhoons
3. Joint program with Sweden to develop a 5th gen Fighter
If the first two action points would be totally acted.

The third one would be a suicide. Producing a 5th generation while others are producing a 6th one? Or if it was mispelled a 6th Generation Germany alone I see it impossible.

The only option i see Germans savings their fighter producing line:
-Join the next international US based fighter as the highest tier partner they can.
-Go complementary, totally forget about manned fighters focus on logan wingmans and UCAVs heavily, really heavily and then do G2G deal Fighters for UCAVs.
-Propose a single Engine version of the GCAP, cheaper and to be produced with the rest of Europe/Brasil and others Gripen users.

The third option would be the best one. But would the Germans accept having a less capable fighter? A multi-role single engine that will fight and overlap the F-35 getting older?

SD67
Senior Member
Posts: 1138
Joined: 23 Jul 2019, 09:49
United Kingdom

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

SiVisPacemParaBellum wrote: 07 Nov 2023, 12:38
SD67 wrote: 07 Nov 2023, 11:20
Meriv9 wrote: 06 Nov 2023, 23:25 Some articles from the French forum

https://meta-defense.fr/it/2023/11/04/e ... a_europea/
(I think it autotranslates to the readers language)

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... ty-drones/
Gerhartz said he also wants to push the tempo on a dedicated strike drone for Germany. The larger vehicle class is internationally dubbed a UCAV, short for unmanned combat aerial vehicle.

France’s national lead for FCAS, Dassault Aviation, has been developing such a weapon for years, in parallel to the trinational program, Gerhartz noted.

“Now were are looking for partners to push UCAV, or loyal wingman, on our side,” he said. “We need that earlier.”
A partner doesnt speak like this, they are in full competitive mode with the french. Don't know how you can collaborate with that attitude.

https://www.nzz.ch/wirtschaft/die-europ ... ld.1746041
Question:We heard that the Germans did not really want to participate in FCAS. But the French tied the project to the gas pipeline through France to bring Spanish gas to Germany. Is that correct?heard that the Germans did not really want to FCAS Participate. But the French tied the project to the gas pipeline through France to bring Spanish gas to Germany. Is that correct?

Answer:We must ask the German Chancellor and the French president. FCAS has always been Plan A. We are pleased that the partners were able to agree. Of course, responsible management needs to think about what might happen. The Tempest programme, in which the British and Italians participate, would certainly have been an alternative. We continue to have excellent relationships with BAE Systems and the United Kingdom. I also fundamentally believe that things can still be SORTed out at FCAS and Tempest
And in this Swiss interview we can see how German industry is the one that dictates where the country goes.
Agreed, and bearing that in mind the only way I can see Germany participating is in a straight licensing deal for local production
I can guarantee you that Germany won't become a BAE customer.
This isn't going to happen.
Oh I totally get it, posted on this topic a while back. "F35G" is looking good

SiVisPacemParaBellum
Member
Posts: 26
Joined: 16 Dec 2022, 15:58
Germany

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SiVisPacemParaBellum »

SD67 wrote: 07 Nov 2023, 15:45
SiVisPacemParaBellum wrote: 07 Nov 2023, 12:38
SD67 wrote: 07 Nov 2023, 11:20
Meriv9 wrote: 06 Nov 2023, 23:25 Some articles from the French forum

https://meta-defense.fr/it/2023/11/04/e ... a_europea/
(I think it autotranslates to the readers language)

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... ty-drones/
Gerhartz said he also wants to push the tempo on a dedicated strike drone for Germany. The larger vehicle class is internationally dubbed a UCAV, short for unmanned combat aerial vehicle.

France’s national lead for FCAS, Dassault Aviation, has been developing such a weapon for years, in parallel to the trinational program, Gerhartz noted.

“Now were are looking for partners to push UCAV, or loyal wingman, on our side,” he said. “We need that earlier.”
A partner doesnt speak like this, they are in full competitive mode with the french. Don't know how you can collaborate with that attitude.

https://www.nzz.ch/wirtschaft/die-europ ... ld.1746041
Question:We heard that the Germans did not really want to participate in FCAS. But the French tied the project to the gas pipeline through France to bring Spanish gas to Germany. Is that correct?heard that the Germans did not really want to FCAS Participate. But the French tied the project to the gas pipeline through France to bring Spanish gas to Germany. Is that correct?

Answer:We must ask the German Chancellor and the French president. FCAS has always been Plan A. We are pleased that the partners were able to agree. Of course, responsible management needs to think about what might happen. The Tempest programme, in which the British and Italians participate, would certainly have been an alternative. We continue to have excellent relationships with BAE Systems and the United Kingdom. I also fundamentally believe that things can still be SORTed out at FCAS and Tempest
And in this Swiss interview we can see how German industry is the one that dictates where the country goes.
Agreed, and bearing that in mind the only way I can see Germany participating is in a straight licensing deal for local production
I can guarantee you that Germany won't become a BAE customer.
This isn't going to happen.
Oh I totally get it, posted on this topic a while back. "F35G" is looking good
It's better for the politicians than admitting that they should've joined GCAP in the 1st place.

SiVisPacemParaBellum
Member
Posts: 26
Joined: 16 Dec 2022, 15:58
Germany

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SiVisPacemParaBellum »

Meriv9 wrote: 07 Nov 2023, 14:40 I think on that we can agree, if the conflict with the Dassault will make the FCAS crash, because Airbus want to be treated equally than Dassault, there would be even less chances of them becoming simple customers of the GCAP.

The thing is
1. National 5th gen development based on the Typhoon
2. More F-35s (to replace) T2 Typhoons
3. Joint program with Sweden to develop a 5th gen Fighter
If the first two action points would be totally acted.

The third one would be a suicide. Producing a 5th generation while others are producing a 6th one? Or if it was mispelled a 6th Generation Germany alone I see it impossible.

The only option i see Germans savings their fighter producing line:
-Join the next international US based fighter as the highest tier partner they can.
-Go complementary, totally forget about manned fighters focus on logan wingmans and UCAVs heavily, really heavily and then do G2G deal Fighters for UCAVs.
-Propose a single Engine version of the GCAP, cheaper and to be produced with the rest of Europe/Brasil and others Gripen users.

The third option would be the best one. But would the Germans accept having a less capable fighter? A multi-role single engine that will fight and overlap the F-35 getting older?
It'll be Option 1 or 2 then.
I've got some doubts regarding the future of NGAD tho.
I'd expect it to be pretty expensive and therefore highly exclusive.
Future US sales to Germany also depend on the future stance towards NATO/transatlantic partnership.
So I'm tempted to say that the Drone Option is the most likely if Germany fails to make a 6th gen program work.

SD67
Senior Member
Posts: 1138
Joined: 23 Jul 2019, 09:49
United Kingdom

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

SiVisPacemParaBellum wrote: 07 Nov 2023, 15:57
SD67 wrote: 07 Nov 2023, 15:45
SiVisPacemParaBellum wrote: 07 Nov 2023, 12:38
SD67 wrote: 07 Nov 2023, 11:20
Meriv9 wrote: 06 Nov 2023, 23:25 Some articles from the French forum

https://meta-defense.fr/it/2023/11/04/e ... a_europea/
(I think it autotranslates to the readers language)

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... ty-drones/
Gerhartz said he also wants to push the tempo on a dedicated strike drone for Germany. The larger vehicle class is internationally dubbed a UCAV, short for unmanned combat aerial vehicle.

France’s national lead for FCAS, Dassault Aviation, has been developing such a weapon for years, in parallel to the trinational program, Gerhartz noted.

“Now were are looking for partners to push UCAV, or loyal wingman, on our side,” he said. “We need that earlier.”
A partner doesnt speak like this, they are in full competitive mode with the french. Don't know how you can collaborate with that attitude.

https://www.nzz.ch/wirtschaft/die-europ ... ld.1746041
Question:We heard that the Germans did not really want to participate in FCAS. But the French tied the project to the gas pipeline through France to bring Spanish gas to Germany. Is that correct?heard that the Germans did not really want to FCAS Participate. But the French tied the project to the gas pipeline through France to bring Spanish gas to Germany. Is that correct?

Answer:We must ask the German Chancellor and the French president. FCAS has always been Plan A. We are pleased that the partners were able to agree. Of course, responsible management needs to think about what might happen. The Tempest programme, in which the British and Italians participate, would certainly have been an alternative. We continue to have excellent relationships with BAE Systems and the United Kingdom. I also fundamentally believe that things can still be SORTed out at FCAS and Tempest
And in this Swiss interview we can see how German industry is the one that dictates where the country goes.
Agreed, and bearing that in mind the only way I can see Germany participating is in a straight licensing deal for local production
I can guarantee you that Germany won't become a BAE customer.
This isn't going to happen.
Oh I totally get it, posted on this topic a while back. "F35G" is looking good
It's better for the politicians than admitting that they should've joined GCAP in the 1st place.
Well looking on the bright side Rheinmetall is going to build a very nice business here with CR3, Boxer, maybe the AS90 replacement, regenerating skills and deepening the supply chain, very impressive

Meriv9
Member
Posts: 185
Joined: 05 Feb 2016, 00:19
Italy

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Meriv9 »

Probably RHM and Leonardo are the two most European companies out there in the defense sector.
These users liked the author Meriv9 for the post:
SD67

SiVisPacemParaBellum
Member
Posts: 26
Joined: 16 Dec 2022, 15:58
Germany

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SiVisPacemParaBellum »

SD67 wrote: 07 Nov 2023, 16:04
SiVisPacemParaBellum wrote: 07 Nov 2023, 15:57
SD67 wrote: 07 Nov 2023, 15:45
SiVisPacemParaBellum wrote: 07 Nov 2023, 12:38
SD67 wrote: 07 Nov 2023, 11:20
Meriv9 wrote: 06 Nov 2023, 23:25 Some articles from the French forum

https://meta-defense.fr/it/2023/11/04/e ... a_europea/
(I think it autotranslates to the readers language)

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... ty-drones/
Gerhartz said he also wants to push the tempo on a dedicated strike drone for Germany. The larger vehicle class is internationally dubbed a UCAV, short for unmanned combat aerial vehicle.

France’s national lead for FCAS, Dassault Aviation, has been developing such a weapon for years, in parallel to the trinational program, Gerhartz noted.

“Now were are looking for partners to push UCAV, or loyal wingman, on our side,” he said. “We need that earlier.”
A partner doesnt speak like this, they are in full competitive mode with the french. Don't know how you can collaborate with that attitude.

https://www.nzz.ch/wirtschaft/die-europ ... ld.1746041
Question:We heard that the Germans did not really want to participate in FCAS. But the French tied the project to the gas pipeline through France to bring Spanish gas to Germany. Is that correct?heard that the Germans did not really want to FCAS Participate. But the French tied the project to the gas pipeline through France to bring Spanish gas to Germany. Is that correct?

Answer:We must ask the German Chancellor and the French president. FCAS has always been Plan A. We are pleased that the partners were able to agree. Of course, responsible management needs to think about what might happen. The Tempest programme, in which the British and Italians participate, would certainly have been an alternative. We continue to have excellent relationships with BAE Systems and the United Kingdom. I also fundamentally believe that things can still be SORTed out at FCAS and Tempest
And in this Swiss interview we can see how German industry is the one that dictates where the country goes.
Agreed, and bearing that in mind the only way I can see Germany participating is in a straight licensing deal for local production
I can guarantee you that Germany won't become a BAE customer.
This isn't going to happen.
Oh I totally get it, posted on this topic a while back. "F35G" is looking good
It's better for the politicians than admitting that they should've joined GCAP in the 1st place.
Well looking on the bright side Rheinmetall is going to build a very nice business here with CR3, Boxer, maybe the AS90 replacement, regenerating skills and deepening the supply chain, very impressive
I' ve thought that it came down to K9 vs RCH155 (vs Archer on HX2)?
Rheinmetall doesn't build the RCH155 - that's a KMW (KNDS) product. The only Rheinmetall component of the RCH155 is the L/52 gun.

Or would you consider the ATI as a likely candidate?

SD67
Senior Member
Posts: 1138
Joined: 23 Jul 2019, 09:49
United Kingdom

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

SiVisPacemParaBellum wrote: 07 Nov 2023, 17:23
SD67 wrote: 07 Nov 2023, 16:04
SiVisPacemParaBellum wrote: 07 Nov 2023, 15:57
SD67 wrote: 07 Nov 2023, 15:45
SiVisPacemParaBellum wrote: 07 Nov 2023, 12:38
SD67 wrote: 07 Nov 2023, 11:20
Meriv9 wrote: 06 Nov 2023, 23:25 Some articles from the French forum

https://meta-defense.fr/it/2023/11/04/e ... a_europea/
(I think it autotranslates to the readers language)

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... ty-drones/
Gerhartz said he also wants to push the tempo on a dedicated strike drone for Germany. The larger vehicle class is internationally dubbed a UCAV, short for unmanned combat aerial vehicle.

France’s national lead for FCAS, Dassault Aviation, has been developing such a weapon for years, in parallel to the trinational program, Gerhartz noted.

“Now were are looking for partners to push UCAV, or loyal wingman, on our side,” he said. “We need that earlier.”
A partner doesnt speak like this, they are in full competitive mode with the french. Don't know how you can collaborate with that attitude.

https://www.nzz.ch/wirtschaft/die-europ ... ld.1746041
Question:We heard that the Germans did not really want to participate in FCAS. But the French tied the project to the gas pipeline through France to bring Spanish gas to Germany. Is that correct?heard that the Germans did not really want to FCAS Participate. But the French tied the project to the gas pipeline through France to bring Spanish gas to Germany. Is that correct?

Answer:We must ask the German Chancellor and the French president. FCAS has always been Plan A. We are pleased that the partners were able to agree. Of course, responsible management needs to think about what might happen. The Tempest programme, in which the British and Italians participate, would certainly have been an alternative. We continue to have excellent relationships with BAE Systems and the United Kingdom. I also fundamentally believe that things can still be SORTed out at FCAS and Tempest
And in this Swiss interview we can see how German industry is the one that dictates where the country goes.
Agreed, and bearing that in mind the only way I can see Germany participating is in a straight licensing deal for local production
I can guarantee you that Germany won't become a BAE customer.
This isn't going to happen.
Oh I totally get it, posted on this topic a while back. "F35G" is looking good
It's better for the politicians than admitting that they should've joined GCAP in the 1st place.
Well looking on the bright side Rheinmetall is going to build a very nice business here with CR3, Boxer, maybe the AS90 replacement, regenerating skills and deepening the supply chain, very impressive
I' ve thought that it came down to K9 vs RCH155 (vs Archer on HX2)?
Rheinmetall doesn't build the RCH155 - that's a KMW (KNDS) product. The only Rheinmetall component of the RCH155 is the L/52 gun.

Or would you consider the ATI as a likely candidate?
I was assuming that if it is a Boxer based solution, then RBSL will be the integrator and it will be added to the ongoing long term workload. May be wrong, we'll see

User avatar
Jensy
Moderator
Posts: 1123
Joined: 05 Aug 2016, 19:44
United Kingdom

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Jensy »

Folks, can we try to limit the 'quoting'? Maybe like a max of 1-2. The little arrow is a direct link to the original post anyhow, so the text and images don't need to be included, unless you're replying to something specific.

Makes it very hard to read and we're not far off having only five posts per page.
These users liked the author Jensy for the post (total 8):
mr.fredCaribbeanMeriv9Phil Rnew guyAnthony58jedibeeftrixSKB
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!" - Dr. Strangelove (1964)

new guy
Senior Member
Posts: 1440
Joined: 18 Apr 2023, 01:53
United Kingdom

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by new guy »

Jensy wrote: 07 Nov 2023, 19:16 Folks, can we try to limit the 'quoting'? Maybe like a max of 1-2. The little arrow is a direct link to the original post anyhow, so the text and images don't need to be included, unless you're replying to something specific.

Makes it very hard to read and we're not far off having only five posts per page.
Most of the time it stays relatively small, rarely one as big as the above.
I feel like their should be an automatic feature for just the arrow, but I see that obviously isn't a possiblility.

Meriv9
Member
Posts: 185
Joined: 05 Feb 2016, 00:19
Italy

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Meriv9 »

https://breakingdefense.com/2023/11/swe ... n-in-2031/

We need to find another EU to access EU funding on equal foot as the FCAS

User avatar
mrclark303
Donator
Posts: 892
Joined: 06 May 2015, 10:47
United Kingdom

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by mrclark303 »

Meriv9 wrote: 08 Nov 2023, 20:19 https://breakingdefense.com/2023/11/swe ... n-in-2031/

We need to find another EU to access EU funding on equal foot as the FCAS
I think we are far better off with Saudi Arabia than another EU country Meriv.

As for Sweden, it's a shame, they would have been an excellent partner within GCAP.

That said, a very large twin engined machine dosen't fit Swedish requirements.

Son of Gripen, or yet another member of the F35 club perhaps.....

It would be a terrible shame if SAAB got out of the fighter business though....

inch
Senior Member
Posts: 1326
Joined: 27 May 2015, 21:35

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by inch »

So if say example Poland wanted to join tempest as well , Italy and Poland would get EU funds for the tempest program and be officially an EU program as well? CRAZY lol ,com on Poland lol can't think of any other countries in Europe who like us lol

Meriv9
Member
Posts: 185
Joined: 05 Feb 2016, 00:19
Italy

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Meriv9 »

We don't need a big country, we need a figuratively one.

The Czech could be an option, since they had soviet Aerospace industry.

Like the Swedish they don't need to buy, just chip in, in order to be called European.
These users liked the author Meriv9 for the post:
Jensy

Post Reply