General UK Defence Discussion

[new guy]

Its something that's been on my mind for a while, we have all called for more equipment/funding for the armed forces but are we saying (for example) if due to world events we were order another 8 type 26's we wouldn't have the manpower to use them?

easily not, we don't have the manpower for anything right now.

[wargame_insomniac]

All good points - few join the forces to sit at home on base, and to operate a ship takes a combination of trades. Also, there aren’t the “seed-corn” crews to scale if there was a war. Tbh , for me this is why minor warships with smaller crews that spend a significant amount of time on station are key to navy.

[SW1]

Its something that's been on my mind for a while, we have all called for more equipment/funding for the armed forces but are we saying (for example) if due to world events we were order another 8 type 26's we wouldn't have the manpower to use them?

I read recently and don’t know if it’s true that the current RN escort fleet of about 16 ships is the equivalent of about 3 full crews short and may need to reduce further ship numbers further to ensure ships are properly manned.


If they don’t fix retention it is going to get worse. If they started reducing commitments to reduce strain in areas it would probably be a gd start. If they fix retention then recruitment will take care of itself.

[new guy]

Its something that's been on my mind for a while, we have all called for more equipment/funding for the armed forces but are we saying (for example) if due to world events we were order another 8 type 26's we wouldn't have the manpower to use them?

I read recently and don’t know if it’s true that the current RN escort fleet of about 16 ships is the equivalent of about 3 full crews short and may need to reduce further ship numbers further to ensure ships are properly manned.


If they don’t fix retention it is going to get worse. If they started reducing commitments to reduce strain in areas it would probably be a gd start. If they fix retention then recruitment will take care of itself.

Ah yes, lets minimise commitments for a problem that will only get worse.

[Tempest414]

What we do know is that those escorts that are at sea have crews of over 200 most of the time we aslo know that 7 escorts are not fit for sea of which 4 of them are in deep life ex / pip

[SW1]

Its something that's been on my mind for a while, we have all called for more equipment/funding for the armed forces but are we saying (for example) if due to world events we were order another 8 type 26's we wouldn't have the manpower to use them?

I read recently and don’t know if it’s true that the current RN escort fleet of about 16 ships is the equivalent of about 3 full crews short and may need to reduce further ship numbers further to ensure ships are properly manned.


If they don’t fix retention it is going to get worse. If they started reducing commitments to reduce strain in areas it would probably be a gd start. If they fix retention then recruitment will take care of itself.

Ah yes, lets minimise commitments for a problem that will only get worse.

Well if you don’t dial them back then people will be away more and this constant cycle of being away for exercises then immediately away for deployment and rinse and repeating is why experienced people are going you know what not worth the hassle.

[new guy]

Its something that's been on my mind for a while, we have all called for more equipment/funding for the armed forces but are we saying (for example) if due to world events we were order another 8 type 26's we wouldn't have the manpower to use them?

I read recently and don’t know if it’s true that the current RN escort fleet of about 16 ships is the equivalent of about 3 full crews short and may need to reduce further ship numbers further to ensure ships are properly manned.


If they don’t fix retention it is going to get worse. If they started reducing commitments to reduce strain in areas it would probably be a gd start. If they fix retention then recruitment will take care of itself.

Ah yes, lets minimise commitments for a problem that will only get worse.

Well if you don’t dial them back then people will be away more and this constant cycle of being away for exercises then immediately away for deployment and rinse and repeating is why experienced people are going you know what not worth the hassle.

Yes, But I argue that is the wrong response, we must focus on the deeper issues with retention and recruitment,

Applicants not becoming recruits
Despite the tight jobs market, an average of 80 applications were made to join the RN/RM as regulars every day (March 2022-23) and numbers are rising according to official figures. There is not an attraction problem, rather it’s a processing failure resulting in basic training courses at HMS Raleigh not being filled.

[SW1]

Its something that's been on my mind for a while, we have all called for more equipment/funding for the armed forces but are we saying (for example) if due to world events we were order another 8 type 26's we wouldn't have the manpower to use them?

I read recently and don’t know if it’s true that the current RN escort fleet of about 16 ships is the equivalent of about 3 full crews short and may need to reduce further ship numbers further to ensure ships are properly manned.


If they don’t fix retention it is going to get worse. If they started reducing commitments to reduce strain in areas it would probably be a gd start. If they fix retention then recruitment will take care of itself.

Ah yes, lets minimise commitments for a problem that will only get worse.

Well if you don’t dial them back then people will be away more and this constant cycle of being away for exercises then immediately away for deployment and rinse and repeating is why experienced people are going you know what not worth the hassle.

Yes, But I argue that is the wrong response, we must focus on the deeper issues with retention and recruitment,

Applicants not becoming recruits
Despite the tight jobs market, an average of 80 applications were made to join the RN/RM as regulars every day (March 2022-23) and numbers are rising according to official figures. There is not an attraction problem, rather it’s a processing failure resulting in basic training courses at HMS Raleigh not being filled.

You can all the recruits you want, but if experience is leaving faster than you can recruit then your in big trouble.

[topman]

When a unit (of whatever service) deploys it needs a wide group of trades/ranks to make it work.
When you have shortages in quite a few areas but not all then that's when you have some groups left kicking their heels whilst others remain short.

In the case you've described, the navy may not have everyone they need to deploy a ship they'd quite like to. So the rest are given whatever roles that can be found until the situation improves.

you are quite right but in the case of the navy how many are kicking about looking for a ship it is also clear that the RN are packing there ships to busting to get crew sea days and experience

I would imagine they would when they can. It's a reasonable response to the tight manning in certain trades.

[topman]

Its something that's been on my mind for a while, we have all called for more equipment/funding for the armed forces but are we saying (for example) if due to world events we were order another 8 type 26's we wouldn't have the manpower to use them?

Same for most increases in equipment, at the moment they'd be no-one to man the increases in equipment.

[SW1]

Readiness and how the navy allocates ships to task with the first sea lord.

https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/9 ... f33b08262a

[Tempest414]

Readiness and how the navy allocates ships to task with the first sea lord.

https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/9 ... f33b08262a

Some very good points made in this and it gives a little insight to where the 1st SL would like to go

[new guy]

readiness figure is good, but days at sea is what matter in peacetime for constant operation.

Both figure matter and both should be given.

[tomuk]

Why do we need constant operation?

[new guy]

Why do we need constant operation?

Why do we cry over capability gaps then? They are the same, at different scales.
What I mean is readiness doesn't matter over ships actually being used.

[tomuk]

Why do we need constant operation?

Why do we cry over capability gaps then? They are the same, at different scales.
What I mean is readiness doesn't matter over ships actually being used.

Capability gaps are not the same as constant operation. We have a capability gap on E3 Sentry AEW for example, that is we don't have any planes at all. That is a big problem.
Having T45s alongside at high readiness is not a problem if it is ready to go when its capabilities are required. Using it constantly wasting ship life\resources chasing drug smugglers for example is a waste.

[topman]

Equipment used usefully is the best way, little point in clocking up wear and tear but at no useful training value. Of course there's a balance between all or nothing training.

[new guy]

Why do we need constant operation?

Why do we cry over capability gaps then? They are the same, at different scales.
What I mean is readiness doesn't matter over ships actually being used.

Capability gaps are not the same as constant operation. We have a capability gap on E3 Sentry AEW for example, that is we don't have any planes at all. That is a big problem.
Having T45s alongside at high readiness is not a problem if it is ready to go when its capabilities are required. Using it constantly wasting ship life\resources chasing drug smugglers for example is a waste.

I follow the use it or lose it value. But I understand.

What I mean is that this shouldn't be a way for the RN to go un-dettered into decreasing sea days.

[wargame_insomniac]

Why do we need constant operation?

Why do we cry over capability gaps then? They are the same, at different scales.
What I mean is readiness doesn't matter over ships actually being used.

Capability gaps are not the same as constant operation. We have a capability gap on E3 Sentry AEW for example, that is we don't have any planes at all. That is a big problem.
Having T45s alongside at high readiness is not a problem if it is ready to go when its capabilities are required. Using it constantly wasting ship life\resources chasing drug smugglers for example is a waste.

Which is why if we wanted a ship to go to Carribean during hurricane season it should have been Argus or one of the Bays, as best placed to offer HADR capabilities. But one Bay has taken over from Albion as LRG(N), Argus and another Bay are off Cyprus before tey transit Suez Canal to Oman to form up initial LRG(S), and the 3rd Bay is acting as mothership for all the new MCM Autonomous Systems in the Persian Gulf.

Or if we wanted a ship to go to the Carribean to chase drug smugglers then it should be a River B2. But Medway had to cover FIGS when Forth went in for maintenance, and indeed Forth was rravelling from Gibralter back to Falklands in the last few days. This will release Medway back to be WIGS.

This is what 1SL was saying when he noted that there were various pros and cons between sending out the various ships to Carribean. The plus side is that was a chance for Dauntless to test her new engines in a warm climate post completion of PIP upgrade. Far less risky than testing the new engines say in the Persian Gulf just off the Iranian coast.....

https://www.navylookout.com/why-has-the ... caribbean/

If it was next year, thn medway should be back as WIGS, and maybe the MOD might have even purchased a dedicated MRSS to replace the Bay in Persian Gulf as mothership for MCM autonomous systems. Then if the Bays are refitted in turn over the coming winters in Carribean Hurricane off-season, then we should be able to run two Bays covering LRG(N) and (S) with the 3rd Bay also to Carribean for HADR.

The point is next year there should be the need for a T45 to do that task. As the 7 remaining T23 ASW (assuming Westminster will be quietly scrapped thereby saving huge LIFEX bill) will need to be nursed gently until their replacement T26 are in service. But with T45's comig out of their own PIP refit, then they should have far greater availability going forward and thus T45's will probably have to do mre missions such as leading participating in NATO SMG 1/2 and shadowing Soviet surface ships.

[SW1]

Why do we need constant operation?

Why do we cry over capability gaps then? They are the same, at different scales.
What I mean is readiness doesn't matter over ships actually being used.

Capability gaps are not the same as constant operation. We have a capability gap on E3 Sentry AEW for example, that is we don't have any planes at all. That is a big problem.
Having T45s alongside at high readiness is not a problem if it is ready to go when its capabilities are required. Using it constantly wasting ship life\resources chasing drug smugglers for example is a waste.

Which is why if we wanted a ship to go to Carribean during hurricane season it should have been Argus or one of the Bays, as best placed to offer HADR capabilities. But one Bay has taken over from Albion as LRG(N), Argus and another Bay are off Cyprus before tey transit Suez Canal to Oman to form up initial LRG(S), and the 3rd Bay is acting as mothership for all the new MCM Autonomous Systems in the Persian Gulf.

Or if we wanted a ship to go to the Carribean to chase drug smugglers then it should be a River B2. But Medway had to cover FIGS when Forth went in for maintenance, and indeed Forth was rravelling from Gibralter back to Falklands in the last few days. This will release Medway back to be WIGS.

This is what 1SL was saying when he noted that there were various pros and cons between sending out the various ships to Carribean. The plus side is that was a chance for Dauntless to test her new engines in a warm climate post completion of PIP upgrade. Far less risky than testing the new engines say in the Persian Gulf just off the Iranian coast.....

https://www.navylookout.com/why-has-the ... caribbean/

If it was next year, thn medway should be back as WIGS, and maybe the MOD might have even purchased a dedicated MRSS to replace the Bay in Persian Gulf as mothership for MCM autonomous systems. Then if the Bays are refitted in turn over the coming winters in Carribean Hurricane off-season, then we should be able to run two Bays covering LRG(N) and (S) with the 3rd Bay also to Carribean for HADR.

The point is next year there should be the need for a T45 to do that task. As the 7 remaining T23 ASW (assuming Westminster will be quietly scrapped thereby saving huge LIFEX bill) will need to be nursed gently until their replacement T26 are in service. But with T45's comig out of their own PIP refit, then they should have far greater availability going forward and thus T45's will probably have to do mre missions such as leading participating in NATO SMG 1/2 and shadowing Soviet surface ships.

As the 1SL made clear dauntless was sent to the Caribbean at the direction of the armed forces minister as he wanted a major surface vessel in the region to support wider security tasks and a presence in the hurricane season. The tasks the general purpose frigates were supposed to undertake except we have none.

The current opv does not have the capabilities to achieve that no matter how much wishing made it so.

[wargame_insomniac]

As the 1SL made clear dauntless was sent to the Caribbean at the direction of the armed forces minister as he wanted a major surface vessel in the region to support wider security tasks and a presence in the hurricane season. The tasks the general purpose frigates were supposed to undertake except we have none.

The current opv does not have the capabilities to achieve that no matter how much wishing made it so.

I personally disagree with you on this point of utlising River B2s to counter drug/weapon/people smuggling, not as a self contained solo operator but as part of an (often) multilateral task group combining aircraft, drones. helicopters and ships.

But you have a habit of continously monotonously "debating" this issue over and over and over again, with out ever seeming to take on board the view of another poster.

So I will simply reply: Your opinion is noted. And let you carry on arguing on this topic.

[SW1]

As the 1SL made clear dauntless was sent to the Caribbean at the direction of the armed forces minister as he wanted a major surface vessel in the region to support wider security tasks and a presence in the hurricane season. The tasks the general purpose frigates were supposed to undertake except we have none.

The current opv does not have the capabilities to achieve that no matter how much wishing made it so.

I personally disagree with you on this point of utlising River B2s to counter drug/weapon/people smuggling, not as a self contained solo operator but as part of an (often) multilateral task group combining aircraft, drones. helicopters and ships.

But you have a habit of continously monotonously "debating" this issue over and over and over again, with out ever seeming to take on board the view of another poster.

So I will simply reply: Your opinion is noted. And let you carry on arguing on this topic.

I take on board the point view, I just think it’s simply wrong and is demonstrably so by how the operation is undertaken when properly equipped vessels undertake the operation. It comes dangerously close to pushing the equivalent of the snatch land rover solution in the naval context.

[Ian Hall]

A quick read.

https://ecfr.eu/article/striking-absenc ... -close-it/

[SW1]

It’s not equipment that the problem it’s everything else. This is storing up monumental problems that will take a decade plus to solve particularly in the airforce as the numbers coming in to those going are diverging

[Jdam]

Might be a self inflicted wound.