Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

[mrclark303]

Please stay away HM Treasury, nothing to see here....that? that's actually not a warplane it is a prototype thermal management system, part of the Net Zero pathway, uses synthetic fuel....

And it hugs lgbtqvxyz's... Yes, anyone with purple hair...

The Tempest assembly hall is also doubling up as a Lesbian drop in centre I hear, so more reason to fund it.....

[wargame_insomniac]

Baby steps, but the first time I've seen Shapps actively talking GCAP since taking over from Wallace:

[SW1]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/germ ... -2n7ffv5g5

[Jdam]

I think we are ok with Japan and Italy.

[SD67]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/germ ... -2n7ffv5g5

Hey Germany, unblock the Saudi Typhoon sale and we might possibly think about it. No actually, forget it.

[new guy]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/germ ... -2n7ffv5g5

Hey Germany, unblock the Saudi Typhoon sale and we might possibly think about it. No actually, forget it.

You actually think that this is a credible source?

[mrclark303]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/germ ... -2n7ffv5g5

Hey Germany, unblock the Saudi Typhoon sale and we might possibly think about it. No actually, forget it.

Oh god, no, absolutely not, Germany equals service delays, general dithering, export issues, funding issues....

They have made their bed with France, let them lay in it..
I'll remind everyone that Germany and France jointly launched FOAS with France, specifically excluded the UK, so as an old friend of mine would say, Fu#k em and the horse they rode in on......

[Jensy]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/germ ... -2n7ffv5g5

What a **** show... Not sure I'd want any part of this. No matter how many Deutschemarks they're willing to chuck in.

One senior German official said Scholz saw no point in FCAS competing with Tempest and wanted either to merge the two or, failing that, to jettison FCAS and join Tempest. The chancellor is also said to be exasperated by the preferential treatment France has given its own aerospace companies in the initial stages of the FCAS project.

The ill feeling is exacerbated by a wider souring of relations between France and Germany on a number of different policy fronts.

This has to be the most pointless infographic I've ever. Also left out Spain:

You actually think that this is a credible source?

I have my issues with The Times' defence reporting but this is more diplomatic analysis than and in-depth tech or defence piece. I'm curious what you'd consider a more credible source than one of the UK's only remaining newspapers of record?

Oh god, no, absolutely not, Germany equals service delays, general dithering, export issues, funding issues....

They have made their bed with France, let them lay in it..
I'll remind everyone that Germany and France jointly launched FOAS with France, specifically excluded the UK, so as an old friend of mine would say, Fu#k em and the horse they rode in on......

I'll remind people that the UK/FR FCAS UAV was going quite well in March 2016, with nine figure funding agreed... then something happened which made our peer across the channel no longer see us as a reliable partner.

[Digger22]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/germ ... -2n7ffv5g5

What a **** show... Not sure I'd want any part of this. No matter how many Deutschemarks they're willing to chuck in.

One senior German official said Scholz saw no point in FCAS competing with Tempest and wanted either to merge the two or, failing that, to jettison FCAS and join Tempest. The chancellor is also said to be exasperated by the preferential treatment France has given its own aerospace companies in the initial stages of the FCAS project.

The ill feeling is exacerbated by a wider souring of relations between France and Germany on a number of different policy fronts.

This has to be the most pointless infographic I've ever. Also left out Spain:

You actually think that this is a credible source?

I have my issues with The Times' defence reporting but this is more diplomatic analysis than and in-depth tech or defence piece. I'm curious what you'd consider a more credible source than one of the UK's only remaining newspapers of record?

Oh god, no, absolutely not, Germany equals service delays, general dithering, export issues, funding issues....

They have made their bed with France, let them lay in it..
I'll remind everyone that Germany and France jointly launched FOAS with France, specifically excluded the UK, so as an old friend of mine would say, Fu#k em and the horse they rode in on......

I'll remind people that the UK/FR FCAS UAV was going quite well in March 2016, with nine figure funding agreed... then something happened which made our peer across the channel no longer see us as a reliable partner.

Go on Jensey, I'll bite, was it the UK being unreasonably reluctant to accept French leadership in UAV design, engines avionics and build with a HQ in Paris??

A bullet well dodged!!

Let's recap, the French have always back stabbed us in aviation.

Cancelled AFVGA (after we agreed to Jaguar), they cancelled Lynx AH variant, (we bought Gazelle and Puma as our part of the deal) they mainly reneged on the deal, only bought small numbers of Lynx and refused to buy AH Lynx derivative, were a royal pain in the arse with Concorde and last but certainly not least caused massive issues with the early years of Eurofighter before withdrawing....

Why would anyone form any cooperative deal with the French, they simply can't be trusted.

'Foreign minded' old chap....

[SD67]

Hey I've a great idea - why not just cut out the middleman and email the blueprints direct to the Kremlin

[GarethDavies1]

Go on Jensey, I'll bite, was it the UK being unreasonably reluctant to accept French leadership in UAV design, engines avionics and build with a HQ in Paris??

I'm not sure what there is to "bite"? We weren't excluded, we excluded ourselves through the results of the 2016 referendum. I have zero intention of getting into a discussion of the 'B word', I'm simply noting the timeline that's brought us to this point.

Also it's "Jensy", just one 'e'.

The French protect their industry in a way we're simply unwilling or incapable of doing. By working with them, it gives an opportunity to up our own game and learn how to build a sustainable long term industry.

I enjoy a bit of jingoistic taking the piss out of the French, as any Englishman, but the truth is they're the closest peer nation to us in technology, expeditionary foreign policy and global reach.

As time goes by I'm certain we'll piss away the opportunity that GCAP brings. This will happen through the incompetence of our politicians, civil service and an industry (one prime in particular) that operates more like a criminal organisation than a PLC. Our international reputation will be further tarnished and our decline to irrelevant middle power will be complete.

[SW1]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/germ ... -2n7ffv5g5

What a **** show... Not sure I'd want any part of this. No matter how many Deutschemarks they're willing to chuck in.

One senior German official said Scholz saw no point in FCAS competing with Tempest and wanted either to merge the two or, failing that, to jettison FCAS and join Tempest. The chancellor is also said to be exasperated by the preferential treatment France has given its own aerospace companies in the initial stages of the FCAS project.

The ill feeling is exacerbated by a wider souring of relations between France and Germany on a number of different policy fronts.

This has to be the most pointless infographic I've ever. Also left out Spain:

You actually think that this is a credible source?

I have my issues with The Times' defence reporting but this is more diplomatic analysis than and in-depth tech or defence piece. I'm curious what you'd consider a more credible source than one of the UK's only remaining newspapers of record?

Oh god, no, absolutely not, Germany equals service delays, general dithering, export issues, funding issues....

They have made their bed with France, let them lay in it..
I'll remind everyone that Germany and France jointly launched FOAS with France, specifically excluded the UK, so as an old friend of mine would say, Fu#k em and the horse they rode in on......

I'll remind people that the UK/FR FCAS UAV was going quite well in March 2016, with nine figure funding agreed... then something happened which made our peer across the channel no longer see us as a reliable partner.

I don’t think Germany are as bad as many make out, I think in some areas there stance allows others with similar concerns cover to say not much but in reality they think the same just don’t say it because they know Germany will take the flak. We do share a lot in common with them in world outlook I think anyway.

I would say germanys reawaking politically from the past 20 years of particular weirdness is about were Japan was in 2016.

From an engineering point of view there actually not that bad to work to with better than the French in my experience. I don’t think it would necessarily be a bad thing.

I do agree with your point in the subsequent post those we from an industrial point of view we should be more French like than we are.

[new guy]

I don’t think Germany are as bad as many make out, I think in some areas there stance allows others with similar concerns cover to say not much but in reality they think the same just don’t say it because they know Germany will take the flak. We do share a lot in common with them in world outlook I think anyway.

I would say germanys reawaking politically from the past 20 years of particular weirdness is about were Japan was in 2016.

From an engineering point of view there actually not that bad to work to with better than the French in my experience. I don’t think it would necessarily be a bad thing.

I do agree with your point in the subsequent post those we from an industrial point of view we should be more French like than we are.

I'm more concerned by the delays to the overall programme and how the Japanese might react than the sort of Tornado and Typhoon shenanigans being repeated. They'd be late to the game and unlikely to be in a strong position to start redefining whatever baseline is being established.

On the other hand it's another fairly large mouth to feed with workshare.

[SW1]

I don’t think Germany are as bad as many make out, I think in some areas there stance allows others with similar concerns cover to say not much but in reality they think the same just don’t say it because they know Germany will take the flak. We do share a lot in common with them in world outlook I think anyway.

I would say germanys reawaking politically from the past 20 years of particular weirdness is about were Japan was in 2016.

From an engineering point of view there actually not that bad to work to with better than the French in my experience. I don’t think it would necessarily be a bad thing.

I do agree with your point in the subsequent post those we from an industrial point of view we should be more French like than we are.

I'm more concerned by the delays to the overall programme and how the Japanese might react than the sort of Tornado and Typhoon shenanigans being repeated. They'd be late to the game and unlikely to be in a strong position to start redefining whatever baseline is being established.

On the other hand it's another fairly large mouth to feed with workshare.

The more partners you have you will always have discussions of definition of the program I don’t think there’s much room for discussion on timelines that window is nearly closed things are further on that what’s public. I personally think typhoon and tornado worked out alright.

If you said it was uk Germany Japan and Italy from a workshare I’d say it would end up at 30, 30, 30, 10. That’s very simplistic and would include more than just the airframe may include unmanned systems and weapons.

[Jensy]

The more partners you have you will always have discussions of definition of the program I don’t think there’s much room for discussion on timelines that window is nearly closed things are further on that what’s public. I personally think typhoon and tornado worked out alright.

If you said it was uk Germany Japan and Italy from a workshare I’d say it would end up at 30, 30, 30, 10. That’s very simplistic and would include more than just the airframe may include unmanned systems and weapons.

Was thinking specifically of Germany's tendencies/demands for smaller aircraft and shorter ranges. With them joining the F-35 club that might well change, especially as 'the front' is a lot further East than it was.

Having thought more about The Times article, I'm leaning more towards it being a shot across France's bow.

Whether the Bundestag actually has the appetite to make such a drastic move is to be seen but I suspect the Euro integrationist faction in Paris will be taking note.

[SW1]

The more partners you have you will always have discussions of definition of the program I don’t think there’s much room for discussion on timelines that window is nearly closed things are further on that what’s public. I personally think typhoon and tornado worked out alright.

If you said it was uk Germany Japan and Italy from a workshare I’d say it would end up at 30, 30, 30, 10. That’s very simplistic and would include more than just the airframe may include unmanned systems and weapons.

Was thinking specifically of Germany's tendencies/demands for smaller aircraft and shorter ranges. With them joining the F-35 club that might well change, especially as 'the front' is a lot further East than it was.

Having thought more about The Times article, I'm leaning more towards it being a shot across France's bow.

Whether the Bundestag actually has the appetite to make such a drastic move is to be seen but I suspect the Euro integrationist faction in Paris will be taking note.

I think the narrative around German and short ranged aircraft are over done. Large aircraft are expensive and not particularly good sellers. I think if you have eye on cost of ownership then the economics of large aircraft don’t make a lot of sense. It a trade off that needs a lot of attention.

I don’t think you’ll ever hear a pilot say they don’t want more fuel but equally if we have bought 200 f16 and that was our sole jet for the past 40 years would we of noticed much difference I’m not sure we would.

I think industry in Germany have had a preference from the beginning to be involved in a uk developed fighter a/c than to co-operate with France. There is historical links over decades with the uk and Italy here and they would prefer it to continue. Possibly politics is starting to catch up with that thinking.

[mrclark303]

Go on Jensey, I'll bite, was it the UK being unreasonably reluctant to accept French leadership in UAV design, engines avionics and build with a HQ in Paris??

I'm not sure what there is to "bite"? We weren't excluded, we excluded ourselves through the results of the 2016 referendum. I have zero intention of getting into a discussion of the 'B word', I'm simply noting the timeline that's brought us to this point.

Also it's "Jensy", just one 'e'.

The French protect their industry in a way we're simply unwilling or incapable of doing. By working with them, it gives an opportunity to up our own game and learn how to build a sustainable long term industry.

I enjoy a bit of jingoistic taking the piss out of the French, as any Englishman, but the truth is they're the closest peer nation to us in technology, expeditionary foreign policy and global reach.

As time goes by I'm certain we'll piss away the opportunity that GCAP brings. This will happen through the incompetence of our politicians, civil service and an industry (one prime in particular) that operates more like a criminal organisation than a PLC. Our international reputation will be further tarnished and our decline to irrelevant middle power will be complete.

Ok joking aside, the results of Brexit are absolutely nothing to do with the previous Anglo French UCAV programme going south.

The French have always had a strategic 'France first' defence agenda, it's got nothing to do with the EU or the UK's position within or outside of that organisation.

In much the same way, Italy has opted to join GCAP, an EU member opting to join a more capable strategic and advanced non EU programme.

Even if we were to hypothesise that it was that simple, France wouldn't terminate a promising defence relationship on the back of a referendum that might not even lead to anything.

Certainly in the early post referendum days, it was far from certain that a democratic decision would actually be adhered too, as idealistic politically driven forces rallied and conspired against it.

The alternative view is that France had already decided to roll it's UCAV capability into a new manned fighter and it didn't want the UK involved, so it severed the link.

Why, well it it probably rightly considered the UK as a nation that would challenge France on project leadership, it would be right too, the UK is certainly further ahead in advanced aero structures and stealth.

Germany is a far more compliant and junior partner in this area. That might not be working out for them however.....

The French have a proven track record of screwing us over on industrial defence matters, that's aside from our excellent defence relationship. Our military forces work well together.

[SD67]

Personal experience working with Germans - they are constitutionally incapable of accepting a subordinate position on anything. It never happens. They'd rather waste a fortune duplicating your work than be pragmatic and use it. Chrysler was owned by Daimler for years and never got their components on a Mercedes. ASRAAM was duplicated. EJ200 should have been 100% Rolls. Typhoon should have had one production line or maybe 2 at the most. It's how they work. If Germany is in then the costs and timelines go up exponentially and the Best Athlete approach goes out the window.

Then there is the Typhoon / Saudi issue. It will not go away. I don't buy "Many people have concerns about KSA" - certainly not Israel who have a de facto Saudi alliance. Who is going to bet our industry on the vagaries of German coalition politics in 30 years time. There could be a Green Foreign minister or AfD taking a pro Russian stance. There's also Iran in the background - not long ago Merkel was announcing a strategic nuclear partnership with the Islamic Republic. It's a large trading relation ship

/ end rant

[jedibeeftrix]

errr, no thanks.

they're a bloody hindrance!

ref - the stalled Saudi order for Typhoons because Germany doesn't 'baddies'.

tempest is a smoothly running machine right now, with great export potential, why would you ruin it?

[mrclark303]

Personal experience working with Germans - they are constitutionally incapable of accepting a subordinate position on anything. It never happens. They'd rather waste a fortune duplicating your work than be pragmatic and use it. Chrysler was owned by Daimler for years and never got their components on a Mercedes. ASRAAM was duplicated. EJ200 should have been 100% Rolls. Typhoon should have had one production line or maybe 2 at the most. It's how they work. If Germany is in then the costs and timelines go up exponentially and the Best Athlete approach goes out the window.

Then there is the Typhoon / Saudi issue. It will not go away. I don't buy "Many people have concerns about KSA" - certainly not Israel who have a de facto Saudi alliance. Who is going to bet our industry on the vagaries of German coalition politics in 30 years time. There could be a Green Foreign minister or AfD taking a pro Russian stance. There's also Iran in the background - not long ago Merkel was announcing a strategic nuclear partnership with the Islamic Republic. It's a large trading relation ship

/ end rant

I think this is why the Franco German alliance is under so much pressure, France want to basically build their own aircraft and get Germany and Spain to subsidise it!

Germany wants an equal partnership, Mexican stand off!

[Spitfire9]

Talking about equal partnerships...

GCAP will be "a trilateral project based on equal participation in terms of costs and benefits, as well as on our three countries sharing the best technology", Italian Defence Minister Guido Crosetto said.

GCAP is expected to cost tens of billions of dollars but the three participating countries have not yet finalised how the budget will be split.

In March, Reuters reported that Britain and Japan would dominate the programme, leaving Italy in a junior role, but Rome officials have repeatedly said they will be equal partners.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 023-11-01/

The position needs to be made clear if the three countries are going to sign a treaty this year.

[inch]

No way if potential 6000 job losses I read somewhere if typhoon doesn't sell more jets and production line closed/slowed until GCAP ramps up 2030s , will UK want Germany onboard,mmh that is until a pro EU party takes power in UK and potentially signed up to anything that might be a partnership with Europe ( Germany) ,even tho we already have Italy onboard ,2 Saudis are potentially looking to join program ,why would UK want Germany joining who probably wouldn't want Saudis to join program also ,it's all just a mischievous reporting and I don't think German government has any wishes to join GCAP ,they would just buy more F35 instead before joining the rival program ,all just bollocks just to get better position with France , nothing else

[mrclark303]

Talking about equal partnerships...

GCAP will be "a trilateral project based on equal participation in terms of costs and benefits, as well as on our three countries sharing the best technology", Italian Defence Minister Guido Crosetto said.

GCAP is expected to cost tens of billions of dollars but the three participating countries have not yet finalised how the budget will be split.

In March, Reuters reported that Britain and Japan would dominate the programme, leaving Italy in a junior role, but Rome officials have repeatedly said they will be equal partners.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 023-11-01/

The position needs to be made clear if the three countries are going to sign a treaty this year.

Certainly great news for UK and Japanese tax payers if that's the case.

I've often hypothesised a 40 billion price tag, it would be interesting to see how such a huge investment is to be sold to the Italian public, considering their sizable F35 procurement.

[SD67]

Personal take - Italy will always find the money for a top end product. Always. Despite all of the ups and downs of Italian politics over the last 50 years Ferrari never went out of production, neither did Ducati, Riva, Benelli, Oto-Melara, Agusta, Fincantieri. It doesn't matter where they have to take it from - the Foreign Aid budget, the Regional Development budget (former Alfasud owner speaking....) wherever, they will find it. It pays for itself in the long run.

[mrclark303]

Personal take - Italy will always find the money for a top end product. Always. Despite all of the ups and downs of Italian politics over the last 50 years Ferrari never went out of production, neither did Ducati, Riva, Benelli, Oto-Melara, Agusta, Fincantieri. It doesn't matter where they have to take it from - the Foreign Aid budget, the Regional Development budget (former Alfasud owner speaking....) wherever, they will find it. It pays for itself in the long run.

I was looking at a lovely Alfa Sud the other day, unfortunately the owner left it out in the rain overnight

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