Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

[RichardIC]

Never said on a major escort.

This is the Current & Future Escorts Thread.

[shark bait]

Then you mean, sacrificing several F35Bs or Typhoons, as you say RAF?

The 'one in, one out' logic works well for ships, but doesn't work so well for aircraft, especially if they're drones.

MROSS(1) and MHC-USV systems sacrificed HMS Echo and Enterprise, and Sandowns. MROSS(2) will sacrifice HMS Scott.

Reasonable

[donald_of_tokyo]

Then you mean, sacrificing several F35Bs or Typhoons, as you say RAF?

The 'one in, one out' logic works well for ships, but doesn't work so well for aircraft, especially if they're drones.

Sorry, why? System cost of MQ-9B is not cheap. Also, I did not say "one-in one-out". I said "sacrifice 5-10 Merlin to introduce 12 more MQ-9B". Similarly, it will need (guess) 5-10 F35B/Typhoon to introduce 12 more MQ-9Bs (with associated systems).

[new guy]

Why would you use a OPV / Frigate? The Swedish have theirs on 24m fast craft, which would be ideal for a forward based RM force or launch OTH.

https://pdf.nauticexpo.com/pdf/swede-sh ... 70-_2.html

This chimes with what I was saying a few weeks ago about replacing the P2000s with some SEA-class boats for the UNRU task and something heftier for littoral work alongside the RM. I do think there is a case for considering a class of "small craft" focussed on supporting the raiding party concept, that goes beyond an advanced landing craft

Order a few more LCU replacements with extended range & endurance. That would be a nice little fast attack craft / Inshore Patrol Vessel/ Littoral vessel.

[wargame_insomniac]

For me what is needed is a mix of capabilities so starting with the LRG out at 80km's off the coast with say 2 escorts with 127mm main gun firing Volcano rounds out to 90+ Km's plus 2 x Amphibs with M270A2's with say GSDB firing out to 150Km's next up would be RM launching Hero 120 loiter weapon's from landing craft at 40km's out used for tactical search and strike and then in the landing phase having Nemo 120 and Brimstone on fast strike boats and last once on shore we would bring the SP Mortar's , Brimstone Over watch and M270A2

All thing under the cover of a Type 45 and its aster 30

One concern I would have is that the only current / up-coming RN escort class with 127mm gun is the T26, and surely they will be too valuable in their ASW role to have two T26 per each LRG?

[Scimitar54]

Just one reason why 8 x T26 is not an adequate number.

[Tempest414]

For me what is needed is a mix of capabilities so starting with the LRG out at 80km's off the coast with say 2 escorts with 127mm main gun firing Volcano rounds out to 90+ Km's plus 2 x Amphibs with M270A2's with say GSDB firing out to 150Km's next up would be RM launching Hero 120 loiter weapon's from landing craft at 40km's out used for tactical search and strike and then in the landing phase having Nemo 120 and Brimstone on fast strike boats and last once on shore we would bring the SP Mortar's , Brimstone Over watch and M270A2

All thing under the cover of a Type 45 and its aster 30

One concern I would have is that the only current / up-coming RN escort class with 127mm gun is the T26, and surely they will be too valuable in their ASW role to have two T26 per each LRG?

This could be dealt with by adding 127mm to Type 32 or Type 31 B2 if they come along However even without the 127mm NGFS the use of M270A2's firing from the working decks of the Amphibs would allow the targeting of key shore defence and command units as said add to this Loiter weapons from 40Km's out Brimstone from 30 Km's out and NEMO 120 mortar rounds from 10km's out we could deliver well targeted Naval fire support

[Poiuytrewq]

Loiter weapons from 40Km's out Brimstone from 30 Km's out and NEMO 120 mortar rounds from 10km's out we could deliver well targeted Naval fire support

Short term the Wildcat AH1 could integrate Brimstone plus 20mm along with LMM and Sea Venom before transferring across to maritime MALE drones to provide ISTAR in the future.

NGS from containerised NEMO via multiple LCX style craft would be pretty devastating in the Littoral. An inshore capability such as LCX/NEMO with a 10km 120mm range travelling in a craft at up to 35knts is just what the FCF will need IMO and if it takes a hit it’s much less of an issue than losing an escort.
https://cnim-groupe.com/sites/default/f ... LCX_GB.pdf

A single Damen Enforcer 14428 MRSS could easily embark a reinforced Company of RM, 2x Merlin, 2x Wildcat, 4x CIC, 2x Mexeflotes and 2x LCX with NEMO along with plentiful capacity for vehicles, stores and a highly capable medical facility. If more capability is required just add another MRSS and everything doubles up.

If that is the scale of the ambition going forward, a MRSS with the capabilities of a Damen 14428 has a solid rationale.
https://media.damen.com/image/upload/v1 ... S4zMS4wLjA

[Tempest414]

Loiter weapons from 40Km's out Brimstone from 30 Km's out and NEMO 120 mortar rounds from 10km's out we could deliver well targeted Naval fire support

Short term the Wildcat AH1 could integrate Brimstone plus 20mm along with LMM and Sea Venom before transferring across to maritime MALE drones to provide ISTAR in the future.

NGS from containerised NEMO via multiple LCX style craft would be pretty devastating in the Littoral. An inshore capability such as LCX/NEMO with a 10km 120mm range travelling in a craft at up to 35knts is just what the FCF will need IMO and if it takes a hit it’s much less of an issue than losing an escort.
https://cnim-groupe.com/sites/default/f ... LCX_GB.pdf

A single Damen Enforcer 14428 MRSS could easily embark a reinforced Company of RM, 2x Merlin, 2x Wildcat, 4x CIC, 2x Mexeflotes and 2x LCX with NEMO along with plentiful capacity for vehicles, stores and a highly capable medical facility. If more capability is required just add another MRSS and everything doubles up.

If that is the scale of the ambition going forward, a MRSS with the capabilities of a Damen 14428 has a solid rationale.
https://media.damen.com/image/upload/v1 ... S4zMS4wLjA

I would be using the Wildcats in the surface search and strike role to secure the flanks

[wargame_insomniac]

Just one reason why 8 x T26 is not an adequate number.

I agree - I would like at least one more T26.

[Repulse]

19 it is then - inevitable really

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/type-32 ... ure-ships/

[Poiuytrewq]

19 it is then - inevitable really

If true it releases a meaningful amount funding between 2026 and 2032.

It also releases more than 300 crew for other vessels.

All kinds of options open up by the end of the decade.

[shark bait]

That is very much a non-story. Written questions are exclusively meaningless government waffle so avoid anything going on record with their name attached to it.

Also a little moment to apricate what spectacular bollocks this is;

We do not disclose the fine detail of forward availability forecasts to preserve the operational security of the Fleet

[Caribbean]

Well, if there were around £2.5b available (which seems to be a fairly common estimate of what might be available as a budget for T32) could we squeeze 2 x T26 and 3 x T31 (perhaps without Mk41) out of that? That would be a pretty straightforward path to 24 escorts (it would also give us 10 C1 & 8 C2 frigates, which sounds a bit familiar).

[RichardIC]

Well, if there were around £2.5b available (which seems to be a fairly common estimate of what might be available as a budget for T32) could we squeeze 2 x T26 and 3 x T31 (perhaps without Mk41) out of that? That would be a pretty straightforward path to 24 escorts (it would also give us 10 C1 & 8 C2 frigates, which sounds a bit familiar).

It doesn't free up any budget because the Type 32 has literally never had a budget. Absolutely nothing.

So precisely zero will be released for anything else.

Type 32 was thought up on the spur of the moment to bulk out the 2020 Integrated Review. Another Boris con job.

Unfortunately the Type 83 destroyer can be filed under the same category.

[shark bait]

It has no budget because its so far in the future.

The defence equipment plan has £1.2 Billion is allocated to ships each year, and in the early 30's the only commitment is the Type 26 build, which is not costing £1.2 Billion a year, so the equipotent plan does leave space for the T32 if prioritised.

[shark bait]

budget.png

The bit we're interested in is EPP Uncommitted. The chart is for all Navy Equipment excluding submarines. If you drill down into the spreadsheet its around £1.2 Billion each year for shipbuilding.

[Repulse]

budget.png

The bit we're interested in is EPP Uncommitted. The chart is for all Navy Equipment excluding submarines. If you drill down into the spreadsheet its around £1.2 Billion each year for shipbuilding.

Can you point me to the breakdown please? My understanding is that the EPP is for all new procurement (inc weapons/systems upgrades for existing platforms) not just ship building.

[shark bait]

The bar chart is all navy equipotent except submarines.

There is a spreadsheet that further breaks this down to just ships;

table.png

[Repulse]

The bar chart is all navy equipotent except submarines.

There is a spreadsheet that further breaks this down to just ships;
table.png

Thanks - is it right to assume that this is just ship building, and excludes monies for existing but not contracted programmes (T26, T31, FSS etc)?

[SW1]

(it would also give us 10 C1 & 8 C2 frigates, which sounds a bit familiar).

If you removed the word frigate and said long term escort force you would have it about right add 6 vessels for the mcm role you would satisfy the c3 requirement too.

[Caribbean]

It doesn't free up any budget because the Type 32 has literally never had a budget. Absolutely nothing.

Hmmm. Not sure my question warranted a snarky reply..

You might note the use of the phrase "If there were" (i.e positing a potential case, that does not currently exist) & "estimate of what might be available as a budget" (as one doesn't exist currently). I also didn't suggest that any budget would be freed up.

I actually posited the question "would £2.5b be sufficient to buy 2 x T-26 and 3 x T-31?", as that would be the path of least resistance towards 24 escorts

Words are important, as is the ability to understand what they mean

Over the time period (3-4 years) when those ships are most likely to be built, there is uncommitted budget in excess of £2.5b (thanks to @SB for quantifying exactly how much is available for purchase of new vessels etc).

[Caribbean]

If you removed the word frigate and said long term escort force you would have it about right add 6 vessels for the mcm role you would satisfy the c3 requirement too.

Yes - I agree - I should have said "escorts". Maybe with a longer term increase from 6 to 8 DD (probably at the cost of retiring/ selling on a couple of older T-31). Plus, as you say, a suitable number of flexible C3s to cover MCM mothership (I would also add more hulls to replace the RB2s when they eventually bow out)

So a final tally of 8 x T-83, 10 x T-26, 6 x T-31 and 10-12 "C3s" (including River replacements)

[Poiuytrewq]

Over the time period (3-4 years) when those ships are most likely to be built, there is uncommitted budget in excess of £2.5b (thanks to @SB for quantifying exactly how much is available for purchase of new vessels etc).

To support BAE Govan/Scotstoun, Babcock Rosyth and H&W Belfast/Appledore around £1.2bn per annum is sufficient if the drumbeat is maintained. That amounts to just over 2% of annual UK defence spending. It is enough to fund all current shipbuilding commitments including the T32 at £2.5bn and MRSS at £2.4bn. The funding also allows for steady drumbeats within the official shipbuilding pipeline. Basically the funding, drumbeats and workshare distribution between yards all align with £1.2bn per annum.

If the funding is dissolving then it is clearly being used to plug holes elsewhere. If programs are being cancelled then funding is available for other programs and slots in the drumbeats are available to build it.

RN doesn’t need additional funding for shipbuilding, the priority is maintaining the drumbeats and making good, timely decisions.

Making the most of what is currently in the water should also be prioritised to ensure another decade isn’t lost whilst waiting on the new toys to arrive.

[SW1]

If you removed the word frigate and said long term escort force you would have it about right add 6 vessels for the mcm role you would satisfy the c3 requirement too.

Yes - I agree - I should have said "escorts". Maybe with a longer term increase from 6 to 8 DD (probably at the cost of retiring/ selling on a couple of older T-31). Plus, as you say, a suitable number of flexible C3s to cover MCM mothership (I would also add more hulls to replace the RB2s when they eventually bow out)

So a final tally of 8 x T-83, 10 x T-26, 6 x T-31 and 10-12 "C3s" (including River replacements)

Yeah but I meant total numbers of 18. On your list the 8 t83s have to disappear.

It’s 10 c1 escorts 8 c2 escorts and you can come up with a number for c3 but I would go with 6 as a place holder.