Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

[wargame_insomniac]

I think in a previous post you mentioned that the Otago class OPV's had hangar space sufficient to carry a Wildcat.

Yes. In the original blue print, the hangar is 16-17m long, and thus can accommodate a Wildcat.

One thing to note is, Otago-class OPV is the Vard7 OPV, and as such designed to merchant ship standard (actually, it is their sales point, the words on top of their web-page). They do not have military-grade radar nor CMS, both of which River B2 has. I also "guess" the internal standard shall be more a merchant ship standard than an OPV standard.

Otago-class having a Wildcat-capable hangar is good. But, its 85-m short length make them unsuitable for blue-water helo operations. However, in littoral water (especially around an island), big wave and swell can be avoided by "hiding behind" the landmass, and then the OPV's helo operation will be possible there. This is why I prefer them to be used in WIGS.

Fair point. How well would the Otago-class fare in either UK waters or even Med then?

Although the RN does need more vessels like either Proteus and Stirling Castle for both their respective roles of sea bed infrastucture monitoring and MCMV, in the short term we just need a greater geographical presence around UK waters, with the large numbers of Russian ships that have been "pasing through" recently. While it is still peacetime we should use our OPVs to shadow Russian ships, trying to preserve the T23's by using tham sparingly , especially if down to just 7*T23 ASW now Westminster has been retired

[wargame_insomniac]

I think in a previous post you mentioned that the Otago class OPV's had hangar space sufficient to carry a Wildcat.

Yes. In the original blue print, the hangar is 16-17m long, and thus can accommodate a Wildcat.

One thing to note is, Otago-class OPV is the Vard7 OPV, and as such designed to merchant ship standard (actually, it is their sales point, the words on top of their web-page). They do not have military-grade radar nor CMS, both of which River B2 has. I also "guess" the internal standard shall be more a merchant ship standard than an OPV standard.

Otago-class having a Wildcat-capable hangar is good. But, its 85-m short length make them unsuitable for blue-water helo operations. However, in littoral water (especially around an island), big wave and swell can be avoided by "hiding behind" the landmass, and then the OPV's helo operation will be possible there. This is why I prefer them to be used in WIGS.

Fair point. How well would the Otago-class fare in either UK waters or even Med then?

Although the RN does need more vessels like either Proteus and Stirling Castle for both their respective roles of sea bed infrastucture monitoring and MCMV, in the short term we just need a greater geographical presence around UK waters, with the large numbers of Russian ships that have been "pasing through" recently. While it is still peacetime we should use our OPVs to shadow Russian ships, trying to preserve the T23's by using tham sparingly , especially if down to just 7*T23 ASW now Westminster has been retired

[shark bait]

I'd argue the UK needs more maritime patrol aircraft before it needs more OPVs

[Repulse]

I'd argue the UK needs more maritime patrol aircraft before it needs more OPVs

To do what from where?

I’d agree we need to look at more MPAs for the North Sea : Atlantic before we increase look at more frigates. But on the basis there are only the OPVs patrolling UK waters plus one training you are looking in the wrong place.

[shark bait]

The UK needs surveillance over a massive area of ocean, so big it's unreasonable to do it with boats.

There are going to be no kinematic engagements around the UK. It's likely to be hostile states and nonstate actors seeking to disrupt life in the UK through smuggling or tampering with infrastructure at sea. The UK needs to have eyes everywhere as a deterrence, and to be able to prosecute any offender's.

Aircraft are the only way to achieve that level of coverage on the surface. At the same time more equipment like MROSS are needed for under the sea.

[SW1]

The UK needs surveillance over a massive area of ocean, so big it's unreasonable to do it with boats.

There are going to be no kinematic engagements around the UK. It's likely to be hostile states and nonstate actors seeking to disrupt life in the UK through smuggling or tampering with infrastructure at sea. The UK needs to have eyes everywhere as a deterrence, and to be able to prosecute any offender's.

Aircraft are the only way to achieve that level of coverage on the surface. At the same time more equipment like MROSS are needed for under the sea.

I agree, it’s more than just the U.K. all our overseas territories are on trade and communication routes of renewed or growing importance. If you base your economy on an export orientated service and manufacturing industries then these areas become more important to you. You use the airbases in those locations for surveillance and the ships for prosecution and interdiction.

[shark bait]

You use the airbases in those locations for surveillance and the ships for prosecution and interdiction.

This sums it up nicely.

Unfortunately the UK barely has enough aircraft for sub hunting nevermind maritime security tasks..

[Poiuytrewq]

Aircraft are the only way to achieve that level of coverage on the surface.

Agreed but the UK will never fund the expansion of the P8 fleet required.

A major uplift in maritime MALE drones is the only realistic way to achieve it.

[SW1]

You use the airbases in those locations for surveillance and the ships for prosecution and interdiction.

This sums it up nicely.

Unfortunately the UK barely has enough aircraft for sub hunting nevermind maritime security tasks..

Possibly more lack of crews and support packages than actual a/c. New 737s should be able to be run 16 hours a day nearly every day they don’t have the crews ect to do it. Protector can also play an important role here too.

[Tempest414]

You use the airbases in those locations for surveillance and the ships for prosecution and interdiction.

This sums it up nicely.

Unfortunately the UK barely has enough aircraft for sub hunting nevermind maritime security tasks..

Possibly more lack of crews and support packages than actual a/c. New 737s should be able to be run 16 hours a day nearly every day they don’t have the crews ect to do it. Protector can also play an important role here too.

We also need to add in cheap kit like Camcopter with I-Master which can conduct surface search around the few ships that are in a area out to 150km from the ships in any direction

[wargame_insomniac]

The UK needs surveillance over a massive area of ocean, so big it's unreasonable to do it with boats.

There are going to be no kinematic engagements around the UK. It's likely to be hostile states and nonstate actors seeking to disrupt life in the UK through smuggling or tampering with infrastructure at sea. The UK needs to have eyes everywhere as a deterrence, and to be able to prosecute any offender's.

Aircraft are the only way to achieve that level of coverage on the surface. At the same time more equipment like MROSS are needed for under the sea.

You need both MPAs and OPVs - they can both do surveillance but ultimately do different things. It wasn’t so long ago the RN had a large fleet of the Island class covering the oil platforms, same argument for the wind frames in terms of critical infrastructure could be made today.

[new guy]

UUV's and USV's are also crucial alongside UAV's/MPA and OPV's. We really should have fleets of UUVs,USVs and UAV's, providing constant surveillance.

Let alone how few OPV's in UK waters for patrol; We also have the most overseas territories after france; look at there fleet, with a planned 27-34 spread patrol vessels across 4 classes all +60m.
That is discounting the UK's own ambition for a GPV, which will probably take form in an OPV manner.

France:
D'Entrecasteaux class: 4
based in Noumea, Papeete, Réunion and Fort-de-France

Confiance class: 3
based in Guiana(2) and Fort-de-France

European Patrol Corvette: 6
Probably to be based in La Réunion(2), Tahiti, Martinique(2) and Nouméa

Patrouilleurs Hauturiers: 7+3
Probably to be based in Brest(3), Toulon (3) and Cherbourg(3). For Atlantic and Mediterranean.

Patrouilleur Outre-mer: 6
Two ships each are to be based in New Caledonia, Tahiti and Réunion respectively.

Fulmar: 1
An ex-trawler based in Saint Pierre


Light Force Projection Ships: 4
*a maybe*
During the 2023 parliamentary review of the 2024-30 LPM, several amendments were adopted to add a program for light amphibious ships capable of landing on beaches with no major port infrastructure to existing plans in order to restore the rapid intra-theater transport of troops and cargo capabilities lost in New Caledonia, French Polynesia, La Réunion and Martinique when the BATRAL-class landing ship tanks were decommissioned between 2004 and 2017.

[tomuk]

We also have the most overseas territories after france;

We may do but they are considerably smaller and less populated. French overseas territories have population of over 2 million. UK 250,000 the majority being the Caymans and Bermuda.

[new guy]

We also have the most overseas territories after france;

We may do but they are considerably smaller and less populated. French overseas territories have population of over 2 million. UK 250,000 the majority being the Caymans and Bermuda.

agreeded, Doesn't change the amount of ocean though, even if the EEZ is half of Frances.

[donald_of_tokyo]

The UK needs surveillance over a massive area of ocean, so big it's unreasonable to do it with boats. ...
Aircraft are the only way to achieve that level of coverage on the surface. At the same time more equipment like MROSS are needed for under the sea.

You need both MPAs and OPVs - they can both do surveillance but ultimately do different things. It wasn’t so long ago the RN had a large fleet of the Island class covering the oil platforms, same argument for the wind frames in terms of critical infrastructure could be made today.

UUV's and USV's are also crucial alongside UAV's/MPA and OPV's. We really should have fleets of UUVs,USVs and UAV's, providing constant surveillance.

"By sacrificing what?" The resource is limited.

We saw MROSS(1), MHC-OSV, and MHC-USV/UUV fleets are coming "in place of", HMS Echo, Enterprise, and Sandowns. MHC-blk2 and MHC-LSVs will "sacrifice" Hunts. Good.

Not easy are the MALE surveillance and ASW options. Adding ~12x SeaGuardian ASW MQ-9B to already ordered 16x Protector RG Mk 1 (MQ-9B) will be the most cost effective way to go. But, UK may loose 5-10 Merlin HM.2 (or 10-20 Wildcat HMA2) to enable it? We must think. If the "additional" SeaGuardian ASW MQ-9B can do STOL operation from CVs, then it will be a huge enabler. Flying one Merlin 24/7 requires 4-5 Merlins to be embarked (I understand they can, at max, fly 6 hours a day). But, flying one SeaGuardian ASW MQ-9B will require only 3.

Another "resources" are in the Amphibious fleet. Shrinking the amphibious fleet by 10% to buy a fleet of "patrol and light attack USVs" is reasonable, I guess.

Then, how about frigates? RN lacks ASW frigates. But, we (actually, I) want to add some ASW-USV/UUVs. For example, I am pushing for 4-6 sets of ATLAS SEASENSE ASW systems to be added as "modules" for the existing 6x ARCIMS USVs (now they are towing MCM sonars and sweep suits. Good. but just "add" ASW option). This will not enhance the blue water ASW capability, but will enhance the shallow water and choke point ASW. I personally think this will be much better option than adding CAPTAS-4CI to T31. But the latter is for blue water, so it differs, and many arguments can exist.

Want all?

"By sacrificing what?" always comes into my mind. Not easy.

[EDIT] My proposal to lease two OPVs from RNZN in 2024-2028 sacrifices only a little resource. Man power and operation cost from (to be lost) Westminster (actually, 1/3 or even less of it). Surface fleet sailors can be trained there (but not war fighting) and can go back to T31 or T26 on 2028 onwards. Minimum impact.

And by doing this, I am proposing to add CUBE capability to (at least 2 of) River B2 to try some ASW (and/or MCM) options. It is better be ATLAS ASW system, which has a huge commonality with ARCIMS SEASENSE. (Absalon and IH-class have Atlas ASO hull sonar, although Absalon looks like going to add Thales CAPTAS4-CI. This is good, integrating Atlas and Thales sonars opens up a way for RN to play with T23ASW/T26 with Thales CAPTAS4 and Ultra's S2150 hull sonar, integrated with Atlas SeaSense systems)

[new guy]

Could the Nemo 120mm mortar be used for NGFS in the future?

Seems fairly cheap and would have commonality with the army if they adopt it onto boxer.
Already proven with the Swedish navy.
Can come containerised aswell, great for naval PODS.
Compare the cost of 5 inch naval gun and magazine (£60m) to bofors MK4 57mm + Nemo 120mm.

[Scimitar54]

Don’t forget the increased number of ships likely to be lost, due to the mortar only having c. 33% of the range of the 5” Naval Gun.

[new guy]

Don’t forget the increased number of ships likely to be lost, due to the mortar only having c. 33% of the range of the 5” Naval Gun.

Yes but you wouldn't use a 5 inch for NGFS either if there was a significant threat.

[Repulse]

Why would you use a OPV / Frigate? The Swedish have theirs on 24m fast craft, which would be ideal for a forward based RM force or launch OTH.

https://pdf.nauticexpo.com/pdf/swede-sh ... 70-_2.html

[RichardIC]

Could the Nemo 120mm mortar be used for NGFS in the future?

Seems fairly cheap and would have commonality with the army if they adopt it onto boxer.
Already proven with the Swedish navy.
Can come containerised aswell, great for naval PODS.
Compare the cost of 5 inch naval gun and magazine (£60m) to bofors MK4 57mm + Nemo 120mm.

If you put a major escort within mortar range of a hostile coast you deserve to loose it.

[new guy]

Could the Nemo 120mm mortar be used for NGFS in the future?

Seems fairly cheap and would have commonality with the army if they adopt it onto boxer.
Already proven with the Swedish navy.
Can come containerised aswell, great for naval PODS.
Compare the cost of 5 inch naval gun and magazine (£60m) to bofors MK4 57mm + Nemo 120mm.

If you put a major escort within mortar range of a hostile coast you deserve to loose it.

Never said on a major escort.

[Caribbean]

Why would you use a OPV / Frigate? The Swedish have theirs on 24m fast craft, which would be ideal for a forward based RM force or launch OTH.

https://pdf.nauticexpo.com/pdf/swede-sh ... 70-_2.html

This chimes with what I was saying a few weeks ago about replacing the P2000s with some SEA-class boats for the UNRU task and something heftier for littoral work alongside the RM. I do think there is a case for considering a class of "small craft" focussed on supporting the raiding party concept, that goes beyond an advanced landing craft

[Tempest414]

For me what is needed is a mix of capabilities so starting with the LRG out at 80km's off the coast with say 2 escorts with 127mm main gun firing Volcano rounds out to 90+ Km's plus 2 x Amphibs with M270A2's with say GSDB firing out to 150Km's next up would be RM launching Hero 120 loiter weapon's from landing craft at 40km's out used for tactical search and strike and then in the landing phase having Nemo 120 and Brimstone on fast strike boats and last once on shore we would bring the SP Mortar's , Brimstone Over watch and M270A2

All thing under the cover of a Type 45 and its aster 30

[shark bait]

"By sacrificing what?" always comes into my mind. Not easy.

Nothing, extra surveillance of domestic waters should not be the focus of the Navy, its a job for the RAF.

The MROSS project is good, and should stay as being a small side project.

[donald_of_tokyo]

"By sacrificing what?" always comes into my mind. Not easy.

Nothing, extra surveillance of domestic waters should not be the focus of the Navy, its a job for the RAF.

Then you mean, sacrificing several F35Bs or Typhoons, as you say RAF?

The MROSS project is good, and should stay as being a small side project.

MROSS(1) and MHC-USV systems sacrificed HMS Echo and Enterprise, and Sandowns. MROSS(2) will sacrifice HMS Scott. Reasonable resource allocation, I agree.