General UK Defence Discussion

[Poiuytrewq]

Nice bit of accounting there, over the course of 6 months we will deploy 16k of people, just not all at once

Still seems ambitious with all the other commitments.

Any deficiencies in strength in depth and lack of reserves will show up very quickly.

[SW1]

Nice bit of accounting there, over the course of 6 months we will deploy 16k of people, just not all at once

Still seems ambitious with all the other commitments.

Any deficiencies in strength in depth and lack of reserves will show up very quickly.

But this should be our main commitment. You need to exercise at brigade level to have the force at readiness.

Commitments elsewhere need to be reduced they’re just not as important.

[Poiuytrewq]

But this should be our main commitment. You need to exercise at brigade level to have the force at readiness.

I completely agree but it is ambitious and with all the cutting and reorganising any shortcomings will be quickly highlighted.

[Tempest414]

Nice bit of accounting there, over the course of 6 months we will deploy 16k of people, just not all at once

Still seems ambitious with all the other commitments.

Any deficiencies in strength in depth and lack of reserves will show up very quickly.

But this should be our main commitment. You need to exercise at brigade level to have the force at readiness.

Commitments elsewhere need to be reduced they’re just not as important.

16,000 troops is not Brigade level it Divisional level unless we are exercising 3 brigades each for 2 months at a time

[SW1]

Nice bit of accounting there, over the course of 6 months we will deploy 16k of people, just not all at once

Still seems ambitious with all the other commitments.

Any deficiencies in strength in depth and lack of reserves will show up very quickly.

But this should be our main commitment. You need to exercise at brigade level to have the force at readiness.

Commitments elsewhere need to be reduced they’re just not as important thought

16,000 troops is not Brigade level it Divisional level unless we are exercising 3 brigades each for 2 months at a time

If it is divisional level even better been far to long since that was exercised too. I’m not entirely sure troops isn’t being used for a catch all when they really mean personnel from all 3 services

[Tempest414]

We are working up the divisional Engineer and Logistics unit right now

[Poiuytrewq]

If it is divisional level even better been far to long since that was exercised too. I’m not entirely sure troops isn’t being used for a catch all when they really mean personnel from all 3 services

Its hopefully three Brigades each deployed individually to Norway/Sweden, Finland and Estonia with RN/RFA providing the bulk of the transportation across the Baltic. That would be impressive if successfully pulled off.

Are we going to get 24 in 24 after all?

[SW1]

If it is divisional level even better been far to long since that was exercised too. I’m not entirely sure troops isn’t being used for a catch all when they really mean personnel from all 3 services

Its hopefully three Brigades each deployed individually to Norway/Sweden, Finland and Estonia with RN/RFA providing the bulk of the transportation across the Baltic. That would be impressive if successfully pulled off.

Are we going to get 24 in 24 after all?

3 combat brigades for war fighting exercise with all the attached units is heading closer to 30K so it’s not that.

24 typhoons maybe.

I’m gonna go for something like a div hq a combat brigade and associated support with a brigade from a Nordic and or Baltic country coming under command

[Poiuytrewq]

3 combat brigades for war fighting exercise with all the attached units is heading closer to 30K so it’s not that.

Perhaps not but maybe a Battlegroup each in Estonia and Finland with a Brigade deployed jointly to southern Norway and Sweden? Still looks highly ambitious.

24 typhoons maybe.

Not sure but if it’s F35 it will be a miracle.

It’s clear the focus is now in the JEF area as expected and the UK will need to continue to provide the mass to justify the lead NATO role in the region.

[SW1]

3 combat brigades for war fighting exercise with all the attached units is heading closer to 30K so it’s not that.

Perhaps not but maybe a Battlegroup each in Estonia and Finland with a Brigade deployed jointly to southern Norway and Sweden? Still looks highly ambitious.

24 typhoons maybe.

Not sure but if it’s F35 it will be a miracle.

It’s clear the focus is now in the JEF area as expected and the UK will need to continue to provide the mass to justify the lead NATO role in the region.

Probably 2 typhoon sqns and 1 f35.

Yes the uk is the framework nation for JEF and I expect that is what this exercise is to demonstrate. As such the main contribution we make to nato and our principle security contribution. The right choice of partners and area for us to concentrate imo.

[new guy]

We should put +1 lightning on the carrier for good slogan, 25 in 25. 24 in 25 just sounds like a missed opertunity.

[sol]

24 typhoons maybe.

HMS Queen Elizabeth will be deployed to the area early next year so her F-35s are probably counted in the total number of mentioned jets.

Considering its wording it is hard to determine how and which those units will be deployed. But it will include both Estonia and Norway, which would probably count regular battlegroup in Estonia (6 months would mean two rotations) and 45 Commando RM in Norway. Even if brigade HQ is deployed, it would probably not be deployed at the full strength, with possible just battalion or couple of company groups from various units.

[new guy]

Rough locations of all out of UK operational RN & RFA ships.
25 total.
Not too bad IMHO

HMS Forth
FIPV- On the way to the Falklands

HMS Medway
FIPV- waiting for Forth

HMS Trent
West Africa

HMS Tamar
Australia

HMS Spey
South China Sea

HMS Middleton
Persian Gulf

HMS Chiddingfold
Persian Gulf

HMS Bangor
Persian Gulf

HMS Cutlass
Gibraltar

HMS Dagger
Gibraltar

HMS QE
Sweden

HMS PoW
US eastern seaboard

HMS Dauntless
East indies

HMS Diamond
Sweden

HMS Duncan
Mediterranean

HMS Lancaster
Persian gulf

HMS Iron Duke
Norway

HMS Somerset
CSG23-soon

HMS Kent
CSG23-soon

HMS Vengeance
Under the sea somewhere

HMS Anson
Under the sea somewhere

RFA Tideforce
semi CSG23 / UK

RFA Cardigan bay
Persian Gulf

RFA Lyme bay
Mediterranean

RFA Argus
Mediterranean

[SW1]

https://breakingdefense.com/2023/10/swe ... -sea-lord/

The UK’s top naval official has admitted NATO nations are struggling to deal with how to address attacks on undersea cables and connectors, because rights of ownership and international maritime conventions are complicating the matter.

Adm. Ben Key, first sea lord of the Royal Navy, said during a conversation with the Center for Strategic and International Studies thinktank on Tuesday that because undersea cables sending data across the Atlantic or Pacific oceans move across “territory that is owned by everybody,” careful steps by “like minded nations” need to be taken to protect their economic interests.

His comments came hours after Sweden stated that an undersea telecommunications cable between Sweden and Estonia had been damaged. The incident is the second of its kind in the Nordic region, arriving after an underwater natural gas pipeline was also damaged between Finland and Estonia.

[Ian Hall]

Worth reading.

https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-resear ... ern-europe

[Ian Hall]

https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-resear ... on-overlap

[new guy]

[wargame_insomniac]

Intresting look on 2nd page at UK (and French and US) bases across the Indo-Pacific.
And also the 3rd page at interrelationships between:
Quad / AUKUS / FPDA / ASEAN

[topman]

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistic ... -july-2023

Down 8k people from july 22 to july 23.
Recruits down 17%.
People leaving up 6%

This continues for another 2 years (like it has) we're in severe difficulty.

[topman]

https://www.navylookout.com/royal-navy- ... -training/

It states the navy shrank by 1640 people from 2022 to 2023.

'There is no equipment programme, no deployment or effect that can be delivered by the navy without trained and experienced people'

You could read across to the 2 other services. Recruitment down, retention is falling as well.

[wargame_insomniac]

https://www.navylookout.com/royal-navy- ... -training/

It states the navy shrank by 1640 people from 2022 to 2023.

'There is no equipment programme, no deployment or effect that can be delivered by the navy without trained and experienced people'

You could read across to the 2 other services. Recruitment down, retention is falling as well.

It’s not the just the UK, it’s common with most wealthy western nations. However, it comes down to money, benefits, welfare and leadership - automation plays its part but the ambition in equipment needs to be tempered and more money given to these areas.

[Tempest414]

https://www.navylookout.com/royal-navy- ... -training/

It states the navy shrank by 1640 people from 2022 to 2023.

'There is no equipment programme, no deployment or effect that can be delivered by the navy without trained and experienced people'

You could read across to the 2 other services. Recruitment down, retention is falling as well.

It’s not the just the UK, it’s common with most wealthy western nations. However, it comes down to money, benefits, welfare and leadership - automation plays its part but the ambition in equipment needs to be tempered and more money given to these areas.

It is also about getting out doing there job if we take nipper he joined POW and had next to no sea days this would have effect his pay and now we have a fully trained member of a carrier bobin about in a diggy as his second tour has to be a Shore based one so if we are so short on crews why are we forcing them to do shore based duties I mean with his skill set he could be at sea on any number of ships so how many more trained people are being forced to do shore based jobs due to the lack of working ships

[topman]

When a unit (of whatever service) deploys it needs a wide group of trades/ranks to make it work.
When you have shortages in quite a few areas but not all then that's when you have some groups left kicking their heels whilst others remain short.

In the case you've described, the navy may not have everyone they need to deploy a ship they'd quite like to. So the rest are given whatever roles that can be found until the situation improves.

[Tempest414]

When a unit (of whatever service) deploys it needs a wide group of trades/ranks to make it work.
When you have shortages in quite a few areas but not all then that's when you have some groups left kicking their heels whilst others remain short.

In the case you've described, the navy may not have everyone they need to deploy a ship they'd quite like to. So the rest are given whatever roles that can be found until the situation improves.

you are quite right but in the case of the navy how many are kicking about looking for a ship it is also clear that the RN are packing there ships to busting to get crew sea days and experience

[Jdam]

Its something that's been on my mind for a while, we have all called for more equipment/funding for the armed forces but are we saying (for example) if due to world events we were order another 8 type 26's we wouldn't have the manpower to use them?