Australian Defence Force

[SouthernOne]

Would it be a good idea to de-spec the hunter class to broardly RN spec but with CAMM-ER & except that its primary focus will be ASW ? that may save a bit of wonga.....

Would it be a good idea? Probably not. If the ADF thought its needs could be met by a fleet of single role ships, it would have taken that path initially.

That approach could even be more expensive given the number of hulls needed for ASW, ASW and AAW capability across Australia’s area of interest.

Canada’s navy seems to have come to the same conclusion, as has the USN.

[inch]

Why does UK have dedicated single role ships and not more all rounders ,are the others wrong or are we ? Not an expert can't answer that for cost and numbers , would we get more ships of single class or less because tech more are on them and would it be jack of all trades and master of none ,or is the tech sufficient now to make a as good all rounder,I just don't know?

[SouthernOne]

Why does UK have dedicated single role ships and not more all rounders ,are the others wrong or are we ? Not an expert can't answer that for cost and numbers , would we get more ships of single class or less because tech more are on them and would it be jack of all trades and master of none ,or is the tech sufficient now to make a as good all rounder,I just don't know?

One thing that clearly separates the UK from Aus, Can and the US is the physical size of their “areas of strategic interest.” Compared to the Pacific or Indo Pacific, the North Atlantic and Mediterranean are pretty “small.”

[wargame_insomniac]

Why does UK have dedicated single role ships and not more all rounders ,are the others wrong or are we ? Not an expert can't answer that for cost and numbers , would we get more ships of single class or less because tech more are on them and would it be jack of all trades and master of none ,or is the tech sufficient now to make a as good all rounder,I just don't know?

In my opinion, partly reflects the RN's historical experiences of fighting u-boats in the North Atlantic in two world wars.

And partly, for decades in the cold war then RN was highly focussed on stopping Soviet submarines getting through GIUK Gap. Along with Norway we played a big part in reinforcing NATO's northern flank. That threat dimished with the fall and break up of Sovit Union. But Russian Northern fleet submarines still remains a potent threat.

[Poiuytrewq]

It looks like total chaos has broken out in Australian naval shipbuilding and procurement if this reporting is accurate.

https://amp.smh.com.au/politics/federal ... 5ea0z.html

Cutting the Hunter Class to three seems ludicrous. Hopefully it’s just conjecture.

BAE offering a destroyer version for the last three hulls looking very interesting. Why not be proactive and start a joint UK/AUS T83 based programme now? Looks like an amazing opportunity to get ahead of the game.

Could a Leander option work for the corvette requirement?

Big opportunities here to help our Australian cousins stabilise their blown budget and maximise outcomes for all.

[tomuk]

It looks like total chaos has broken out in Australian naval shipbuilding and procurement if this reporting is accurate.

https://amp.smh.com.au/politics/federal ... 5ea0z.html

Cutting the Hunter Class to three seems ludicrous. Hopefully it’s just conjecture.

BAE offering a destroyer version for the last three hulls looking very interesting. Why not be proactive and start a joint UK/AUS T83 based programme now? Looks like an amazing opportunity to get ahead of the game.

Could a Leander option work for the corvette requirement?

Big opportunities here to help our Australian cousins stabilise their blown budget and maximise outcomes for all.

Just more nonsense from the Arleigh Burke obsessed Australian Defence Commentariat\Establishment.

[new guy]

It looks like total chaos has broken out in Australian naval shipbuilding and procurement if this reporting is accurate.

https://amp.smh.com.au/politics/federal ... 5ea0z.html

Cutting the Hunter Class to three seems ludicrous. Hopefully it’s just conjecture.

BAE offering a destroyer version for the last three hulls looking very interesting. Why not be proactive and start a joint UK/AUS T83 based programme now? Looks like an amazing opportunity to get ahead of the game.

Could a Leander option work for the corvette requirement?

Big opportunities here to help our Australian cousins stabilise their blown budget and maximise outcomes for all.

Are you joking when You say leander?


Elsewhere, Australia shouldn't pull a UK and cut. push at speed, don't look back would be my advise.

[Poiuytrewq]

Are you joking when You say leander?

No.

Why would a Leander derivative not be suitable for the Australian Corvette program?

[new guy]

Are you joking when You say leander?

No.

Why would a Leander derivative not be suitable for the Australian Corvette program?

may reasons, least of all why when AH140 exists?

[Poiuytrewq]

Are you joking when You say leander?

No.

Why would a Leander derivative not be suitable for the Australian Corvette program?

may reasons, least of all why when AH140 exists?

The AH140 isn’t a Corvette and by the time the RAN has done what it always does which is add a totally different CMS, weapons sensors etc and then insist that it’s built at Osborne it will likely cost £500m per hull….at least.

I’m not suggesting that the AH140 is a bad choice for Australia but it would be more like 6 rather than 12 if Babcock get the green light.

IMO Leander is a better fit for the Australian Corvette program as it’s really a light Frigate rather than a heavy Corvette.

The 117m Leander can embark 56 more personnel than the 80 core crew so an EMF of around 35 plus flight.

The hanger will embark a medium helo.

The 117m Leander can carry 16x Mk41, 12x CAMM, 57mm/76mm or 127mm and 8x ASM. Thats 76x SAM if the Mk41’s are quad packed.

Top speed is 25knts and max range is 8100nm with a 35day endurance.

Three RHIBs can be embarked plus multiple TEU which can be loaded/unloaded with the 16t deck crane.

Sea keeping qualities are excellent, much better than many other Corvette designs.

What other Corvette design can compare to Leanders capabilities?

[new guy]

Are you joking when You say leander?

No.

Why would a Leander derivative not be suitable for the Australian Corvette program?

may reasons, least of all why when AH140 exists?

The AH140 isn’t a Corvette and by the time the RAN has done what it always does which is add a totally different CMS, weapons sensors etc and then insist that it’s built at Osborne it will likely cost £500m per hull….at least.

I’m not suggesting that the AH140 is a bad choice for Australia but it would be more like 6 rather than 12 if Babcock get the green light.

IMO Leander is a better fit for the Australian Corvette program as it’s really a light Frigate rather than a heavy Corvette.

The 117m Leander can embark 56 more personnel than the 80 core crew so an EMF of around 35 plus flight.

The hanger will embark a medium helo.

The 117m Leander can carry 16x Mk41, 12x CAMM, 57mm/76mm or 127mm and 8x ASM. Thats 76x SAM if the Mk41’s are quad packed.

Top speed is 25knts and max range is 8100nm with a 35day endurance.

Three RHIBs can be embarked plus multiple TEU which can be loaded/unloaded with the 16t deck crane.

Sea keeping qualities are excellent, much better than many other Corvette designs.

What other Corvette design can compare to Leanders capabilities?

Leander will probably
a) cost more
B) doesn't exist
c) Isn't virtually procured or in procurement by 4 nations.
D) AH140 could theoretically carry double CAMM.
e) AH140 better fits Australia's needs: Endurance, range, then the typical European corvette.

[Jensy]

It looks like total chaos has broken out in Australian naval shipbuilding and procurement if this reporting is accurate.

https://amp.smh.com.au/politics/federal ... 5ea0z.html

Cutting the Hunter Class to three seems ludicrous. Hopefully it’s just conjecture.

BAE offering a destroyer version for the last three hulls looking very interesting. Why not be proactive and start a joint UK/AUS T83 based programme now? Looks like an amazing opportunity to get ahead of the game.

Could a Leander option work for the corvette requirement?

Big opportunities here to help our Australian cousins stabilise their blown budget and maximise outcomes for all.

Just more nonsense from the Arleigh Burke obsessed Australian Defence Commentariat\Establishment.

The surface fleet review, led by retired US vice-admiral William Hilarides..

Not to mention a wholly owned entity of the Spanish State:

Spanish shipbuilder Navantia has pitched the government a plan to build three air warfare destroyers at a cost of $2 billion each in a design similar to that used for the navy’s three current Hobart-class destroyers.

Not dissimilar from the shenanigans we're already seeing around GCAP. Defence is big business, whether privately or state owned. Something worth fighting dirty over.

I'm still yet to be convinced the growth issues with Type 26 for Aussie spec would be any better with either of the, far smaller, competing proposals from Navantia or Fincantieri. In fact I'd expect them to be far worse.

[Poiuytrewq]

Leander will probably
a) cost more
B) doesn't exist
c) Isn't virtually procured or in procurement by 4 nations.
D) AH140 could theoretically carry double CAMM.
e) AH140 better fits Australia's needs: Endurance, range, then the typical European corvette.

So let’s recap.

Australia is planning to build 9x Hunters but due to the RAN specified adaptions the budget is blown and the increased weight is causing speed and stability issues.

The solution is to cancel some of the Hunters to save money and start a new program to procure an unspecified number of destroyers to save money. The new destroyer class has to have a substantially increased number of VLS cells to increase lethality….whilst lowering costs to save money.

Meanwhile, the RAN intends to procure a class of 12x Corvettes to add mass and increase availability at modest cost to fill the gaps until the rest of the fleet starts to take shape.

Where in that plan is another class of twelve 138m, 5700t Frigates? A class of Frigates with 32x Mk41 cells and up to 16x canisters for Anti ship Missiles. Is it realistic to think the operating costs would even be remotely plausible?

[Mercator]

Interesting speculation here, but still just theory crafting:

Ministers face billions in blowouts for new warships
https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/mi ... 005-p5e9ym

The author has good sources though, so I have no doubt that much of this is the guts of the review and the options presented.

Happy to see my personal preference for more Hobarts in the mix. Did not realise that a radar upgrade for the Hobarts was being considered as well. Interesting.

[Mercator]

see also, this article, but with 50% more wankers thrown in:

Floating ‘turkeys’: Is Australia spending $50bn on dud ships?
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal ... 5e94l.html

[abc123]

Lots of strategic bumbling in Australia IMHO. They don't know what they want, and they want it now.

[tomuk]

Where in that plan is another class of twelve 138m, 5700t Frigates? A class of Frigates with 32x Mk41 cells and up to 16x canisters for Anti ship Missiles. Is it realistic to think the operating costs would even be remotely plausible?

Sources said the review has recommended the navy acquire a smaller “tier 2″ corvette or light frigate-style warship, with the choice between Spanish shipbuilder Navantia and British shipbuilder Babcock. These warships would be able to carry missiles and have a longer range than the navy’s offshore patrol vessels currently under construction.

https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/mi ... 005-p5e9ym

[abc123]

Just more nonsense from the Arleigh Burke obsessed Australian Defence Commentariat\Establishment.

If they want Burke's they should have build them in the first place.

[tomuk]

Just more nonsense from the Arleigh Burke obsessed Australian Defence Commentariat\Establishment.

If they want Burke's they should have build them in the first place.

In the one article the benchmark now seems to be 96 cells i.e. a Burke. But at 10,000t? and £9bn Hunter is too big and expensive so the answer is more, more moderately sized and priced, Spanish built Hobarts with 48 cells. Incoherent gibber.

[abc123]

Incoherent gibber.

X

[Poiuytrewq]

Thank you.

The AH140 would be a great choice for Australia but it isn’t a Corvette program. Perhaps its now evolved into another Frigate program which means the plan has changed again.

It’s the decision making chaos that is most baffling. Changing multi billion $ procurement programs on a regular basis will not save money.

The most interesting element IMO from a UK perspective (apart from a possible T26 derived destroyer design) is BAE’s total unwillingness to engage with a RB2/RB3/Leander design.

It’s just not a sector of the market that BAE want to get involved. Therefore, it could be a massive opportunity for Babcock but pitching the AH140 for every program regardless of the proposed vessel requirements will only go so far.

Time for a wider Babcock design portfolio and the joint effort with Saab may be the perfect way to do it.

[Tempest414]

Are you joking when You say leander?

No.

Why would a Leander derivative not be suitable for the Australian Corvette program?

may reasons, least of all why when AH140 exists?

The AH140 isn’t a Corvette and by the time the RAN has done what it always does which is add a totally different CMS, weapons sensors etc and then insist that it’s built at Osborne it will likely cost £500m per hull….at least.

I’m not suggesting that the AH140 is a bad choice for Australia but it would be more like 6 rather than 12 if Babcock get the green light.

IMO Leander is a better fit for the Australian Corvette program as it’s really a light Frigate rather than a heavy Corvette.

The 117m Leander can embark 56 more personnel than the 80 core crew so an EMF of around 35 plus flight.

The hanger will embark a medium helo.

The 117m Leander can carry 16x Mk41, 12x CAMM, 57mm/76mm or 127mm and 8x ASM. Thats 76x SAM if the Mk41’s are quad packed.

Top speed is 25knts and max range is 8100nm with a 35day endurance.

Three RHIBs can be embarked plus multiple TEU which can be loaded/unloaded with the 16t deck crane.

Sea keeping qualities are excellent, much better than many other Corvette designs.

What other Corvette design can compare to Leanders capabilities?

I can't see Leander being any cheaper than the 500 million you put next to AH-140 by the time the RAN finish messing with it

Maybe Babcocks will again work with the Danish and offer something like the new Arctic frigate here at 5.03 in the video

[SW1]

Always make me wonder. Over spec’d things you can’t afford seem endemic. Talk of corvettes I assume due to historical ideas of cheapness, then proceed to stuff if full of all the expensive bits to turn it into a frigate they first thought off but didn’t want to say because they assume the original approach would be cheaper but ends up paying twice as much…

Why would Australia want an artic ice strengthened frigate when it sees its engagement to f these ships in the tropics north of Darwin?

[R686]

Lots of strategic bumbling in Australia IMHO. They don't know what they want, and they want it now.

It’s all about the current government robbing Peter to pay Paul, Albo was in a predicament didn’t want to back track on the nuclear subs for fear of being soft on defence but dosnt want to increase the defence budget. So they are coming up with ways to make it look like they are doing something but doing nothing of substance

[Tempest414]

Always make me wonder. Over spec’d things you can’t afford seem endemic. Talk of corvettes I assume due to historical ideas of cheapness, then proceed to stuff if full of all the expensive bits to turn it into a frigate they first thought off but didn’t want to say because they assume the original approach would be cheaper but ends up paying twice as much…

Why would Australia want an artic ice strengthened frigate when it sees its engagement to f these ships in the tropics north of Darwin?

the key words were something like