Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

[Jensy]

London should admit one fact that was clear from the beginning of the current coalition in Berlin: the cohesion of the coalition will always prevail over any international and commercial issue.

https://www.defense-aerospace.com/why-b ... d-to-fail/

Time to shift focus from Eurofighter to Tempest, I think. Always assuming that Japan does not object to supplying fighter aircraft to a country like Saudi Arabia.

Early days but they appear to be more pragmatic than one might have assumed.

Let's just hope the UK government doesn't take the piss.

[inch]

Yes I'm wondering what France is thinking, should it go it alone with a updated rafale concept and save it self a potential massive stumbling block in the noose that is Germany ,I really suspect someone must be thinking IS this the right way to go with Germany,mmh ?

[new guy]

Exactly - if the order is not placed this year what is the point? Roll it into Tempest. I really do wonder what the French are thinking when they watch this melodrama

Also - I suspect if we were France the entire Boxer program would have been cancelled by now

You know we were part of the original consortium that developed Boxer right? We developed it to the point it was ready to go....then walked away signing away a £400m+ investment and all the rights///GKN went under...then 15 years later we're back buying the vehicle we did most of the work on from the Germans...

[SD67]

Exactly - if the order is not placed this year what is the point? Roll it into Tempest. I really do wonder what the French are thinking when they watch this melodrama

Also - I suspect if we were France the entire Boxer program would have been cancelled by now

You know we were part of the original consortium that developed Boxer right? We developed it to the point it was ready to go....then walked away signing away a £400m+ investment and all the rights///GKN went under...then 15 years later we're back buying the vehicle we did most of the work on from the Germans...

I'm aware of the back story.

[TheLoneRanger]

Has the PM suddenly grown a pair? But the Civil service are still pathetic though "risk poisoning Anglo German relations" sheesh that's a great negotiating position

I daresay nothing will piss the Germans off as much as Brexit.

You've also got to consider just how effective "privately urging" has worked, considering it's being reported in The Times...

As far as SCAF goes, I genuinely feel sorry for France.

P.S: The Times Berlin correspondent is now claiming "signs of a possible breakthrough":

AND - I am glad that GCAP has nothing to do with Germany !!!!

[Luke jones]

So in five years time if say Saudi Arabia come and ask for 1000 Boxer off our production line what happens then?
Are we sure that this isn't going to cause a huge problem?

I'm not saying Saudi will come but it's a what if.

[SKB]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... t-air.html

[Gtal]

Yes I'm wondering what France is thinking

Frankly, and with respect, as a Brit who has spent the last 17 years in Belgium, France and Germany I have to intervene here and just point out how much those in the UK still misunderstand their neighbours even after everything that has happened and make the point that the channel conitnues to fog the minds of some.


France sees Germany no longer caring much if at all about the UK's concerns and sees a mirror image of how France itself views it's relations with the UK.

And genuinely, sitting here on the continent and viewing the situation through french, german and english glasses, it does concern me and virtually every other expat I meet seems to have noticed this to, just how much the world somehow looks exactly the same from Paris and Berlin and yet in many ways it appears like a completely different universe when described from London...

[SD67]

So Germany holding up a 10 billion export contract and arguably breaking the terms of a multi decade partnership is due to our lack of understanding?

I think we have a pretty good understanding with Poland, Italy and the Scandi countries. What MittelEuropa chooses to do is frankly of declining importance

[BB85]

Yes I'm wondering what France is thinking

Frankly, and with respect, as a Brit who has spent the last 17 years in Belgium, France and Germany I have to intervene here and just point out how much those in the UK still misunderstand their neighbours even after everything that has happened and make the point that the channel conitnues to fog the minds of some.

I think you misunderstood Inch's initial post. France couldn't care less about the UK selling jets to Saudi when they are a long term partner. France's concern is Germany crippling the export success of their joint fighter. They had to spend several years negotiating it into their joint contract to ensure Germany could not block French exports of the future fighter.

By all accounts the future fighter and future MBT they have been working on appears to have been a disaster.
They are still haggling over work share on the fighter and Germany has just ditched France on the future MBT signing contracts with Sweden, Italy and Spain. So your opinion that France and Germany sees everything the same especially on defence is wide off the mark.

[Timmymagic]

Yes I'm wondering what France is thinking

Frankly, and with respect, as a Brit who has spent the last 17 years in Belgium, France and Germany I have to intervene here and just point out how much those in the UK still misunderstand their neighbours even after everything that has happened and make the point that the channel conitnues to fog the minds of some.


France sees Germany no longer caring much if at all about the UK's concerns and sees a mirror image of how France itself views it's relations with the UK.

And genuinely, sitting here on the continent and viewing the situation through french, german and english glasses, it does concern me and virtually every other expat I meet seems to have noticed this to, just how much the world somehow looks exactly the same from Paris and Berlin and yet in many ways it appears like a completely different universe when described from London...

So you're not keeping up with developments in SCAF and MGCS then?

[Spitfire9]

Is the Typhoon deal with Qatar in jeopardy after the killing of a large number of people in the south of Israel? Hamas is a proscribed organisation in the UK and elsewhere. Qatar is said to finance Hamas.

[Jackstar]

Is the Typhoon deal with Qatar in jeopardy after the killing of a large number of people in the south of Israel? Hamas is a proscribed organisation in the UK and elsewhere. Qatar is said to finance Hamas.

They're almost all delivered.

[SD67]

Is the Typhoon deal with Qatar in jeopardy after the killing of a large number of people in the south of Israel? Hamas is a proscribed organisation in the UK and elsewhere. Qatar is said to finance Hamas.

They also supply a large proportion of the UK's gas

[Jackstar]

Is the Typhoon deal with Qatar in jeopardy after the killing of a large number of people in the south of Israel? Hamas is a proscribed organisation in the UK and elsewhere. Qatar is said to finance Hamas.

They also supply a large proportion of the UK's gas

I believe the US overtook Qatar as the largest supplier of LNG to the UK a little while ago.
It will interesting to see what difference the new North Sea Rosebank oil and gas field makes to this. But I don't think any of this will impact the Typhoon order, it's too far down the line .

[new guy]

Is the Typhoon deal with Qatar in jeopardy after the killing of a large number of people in the south of Israel? Hamas is a proscribed organisation in the UK and elsewhere. Qatar is said to finance Hamas.

They also supply a large proportion of the UK's gas

I believe the US overtook Qatar as the largest supplier of LNG to the UK a little while ago.
It will interesting to see what difference the new North Sea Rosebank oil and gas field makes to this. But I don't think any of this will impact the Typhoon order, it's too far down the line .

Norwegian owed and globally distributed though.

[Spitfire9]

Airbus has found last-ditch solution on its hands: it has dug up an old written question addressed by die Linke, the Leftist party, to the Federal Government (BT-16/2568) of the 12 September 2006:

“What legal agreements exist between the Federal Republic of Germany and Great Britain and between the Federal Republic of Germany and Saudi Arabia that guarantee to the British and Saudi governments that Eurofighters with German components and subsystems that are finally assembled in Great Britain may be delivered to Saudi Arabia (please state the relevant passages of the agreement)?

On page 3, the German Government confirmed that it would be obliged to provide the UK with alternative sources of supply and, if necessary, to finance them:

“The government agreement concluded between the Eurofighter partner countries -- Germany, Great Britain, Italy, and Spain -- in October 1986 stipulates that no partner is allowed to hinder the sale of jointly developed products by another partner country. If a country does not approve the delivery of its share, it is obliged to enable the other country to set up an alternative source of supply and, if necessary, to finance it. There are no agreements regarding the Eurofighter between the Federal Republic of Germany and Saudi Arabia.”

https://www.defense-aerospace.com/germa ... n-program/

Sounds like UK should negotiate an order from SA and put Germany on the spot: finance non-German production of parts made in Germany (very expensive, I imagine). Otherwise pay damages to the other partners.

Any partner disagreeing to Germany's block on export to SA should have taken action once supply was blocked. It may be that SA is no longer interested now.

[SD67]

Frankly from a UK POV 2030 is so close to Tempest ramping up there may be a "who cares " factor. Another 25 from Spain takes it to 2032 and then Warton switches over, sell Tempest to the Saudis and the Germans can go stew

[mrclark303]

Frankly from a UK POV 2030 is so close to Tempest ramping up there may be a "who cares " factor. Another 25 from Spain takes it to 2032 and then Warton switches over, sell Tempest to the Saudis and the Germans can go stew

Quite, Germany has almost written itself out of the play.
Once Saudi Arabia joins GCAP, with its compressed development schedule, they will loose interest in Thypoon.

[SW1]

Despite the public rhetoric it might not be just Germany that are uneasy about selling to Saudi.

[Spitfire9]

Any partner disagreeing to Germany's block on export to SA should have taken action once supply was blocked. It may be that SA is no longer interested now.

I think that SA is no longer interested now.

Weekly La Tribune Dimanche reported that Saudi Arabia -- whose airforce is mostly equipped with American F-15s and Eurofighters built by Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain -- had asked Dassault for a cost estimate for 54 Rafales by November 10.

https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/france ... 52283.html

[SD67]

This is beyond the pale

Seriously I despair for the future of this country.

Sunak should grow a pair, sign a government to government deal today and dare Germany to vote it down. If there's a hint of dissent there should be a long, detailed inquiry into Russo German post 1995 relations including Rosneft, Gazprom, Schroeder and Leo2 to Ukraine

[SD67]

Maybe it could actually be a necessary wake up call to lose this badly. Like "the world is not waiting for you anymore", "Play the game or go home",
And please don't anyone spout nonsense about Saudi Human Rights, puhleeze - the one Arab country who have come out and condemned Hamas.
Just sign the contract and work out the details later. German industry will have the Fed Govts head on a spike if they do not participate

/end rant

[inch]

The most wonderful thing for the future is tho that Germany has nothing and never will have anything to do with GCAP ,and if France has anything to learn about this going into partnership with Germany is button everything up tight for future sales of FCAS that Germany has absolutely ZERO veto on who France and Spain can sell too ,

[mrclark303]

The most wonderful thing for the future is tho that Germany has nothing and never will have anything to do with GCAP ,and if France has anything to learn about this going into partnership with Germany is button everything up tight for future sales of FCAS that Germany has absolutely ZERO veto on who France and Spain can sell too ,

Absolutely spot on.......

I have a feeling that FCAS will simply fall apart and be replaced with an advanced derivative of the Rafale.

A few subtle airframe mods, new avionics suite with a new Active radar ect

Such a machine would still be overmatch for anything Russia or China can field.