Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Spitfire9 »

Unfortunately for OEM's hoping to win the Indian competition for 114 medium weight fighters, the Indian Chief of Air Staff has announced that the IAF intends ordering 100 more Tejas Mk1A light fighters. IMO it is likely that MRFA will be scrapped and 2-4 more squadrons of Rafale be ordered in its stead. I think that Dassault, Eurofighter, SAAB, LM etc bidding for the contract will soon hear that MRFA has been cancelled. Sad. I thought Typhoon was in with a good chance.

All that money spent on preparing bids a complete waste! That's India for you -MRFA came into being in 2018 mostly because India's own Tejas Mk2 programme for a light/medium weight fighter for IAF was so many years behind schedule. Ironically the MRFA programme to secure fighters for IAF more quickly as an 'emergency' measure was so delayed that another solution to keep up IAF squadron numbers needed to be adopted.

Sadly, I think that MRFA was Eurofighter's last chance to get a sizeable new export customer. IMO Poland is a dream - KF-21 is stealthier, cheaper to buy, will be much cheaper to operate and may evolve into an aircraft with IWB and much greater stealth in the next few years. Poland has bought light fighters from South Korea, tanks and I know not what else. Why on earth would Poland want Typhoon?

I wonder what is happening with Egypt. That possibility seems to have gone all quiet.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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Good stuff

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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I understand that Spain will need F-35B for its carrier. I wonder if the forthcoming Typhoon order means that Spain will not be ordering any F-35A as Hornets are retired at the end of the decade but rather replace them with Typhoon. I presume that outcome would make FCAS partner Germany happier.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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Spitfire9 wrote: 19 Sep 2023, 11:09 I understand that Spain will need F-35B for its carrier. I wonder if the forthcoming Typhoon order means that Spain will not be ordering any F-35A as Hornets are retired at the end of the decade but rather replace them with Typhoon. I presume that outcome would make FCAS partner Germany happier.
It makes total sense for Spain. I feel Spain's FCAS participation will render any F35B purchase impossible from a financial and political perspective, so Spain will be out of the fixed wing carrier business when it's AV8B's are worn out.

If it doesn't proceed with FCAS, Spain will no doubt buy an F35A/B mix to replace the Typhoons, Hornets and Harriers.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by serge750 »

why ? Germanys buying a few F35 - so why would they frown apon spain getting 15 (?) for their LHD ? probably wont happen though due to their budget as you say

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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Spitfire9 wrote: 19 Sep 2023, 11:09 I understand that Spain will need F-35B for its carrier. I wonder if the forthcoming Typhoon order means that Spain will not be ordering any F-35A as Hornets are retired at the end of the decade but rather replace them with Typhoon. I presume that outcome would make FCAS partner Germany happier.
There are 84 EF-18 and a further 13 AV-8B+ to replace in total.

Halcon I replaces the oldest EF-18 based on the Canaries, with 20 new Tranche 4 Typhoon.
Halcon II replaces some of the remaining EF-18 based in mainland Spain with 25 Tranche 4 Typhoon

However...on a like for like basis there are still c50-55 a/c left to replace...(there were 15 AV-8B+ at one point)

There will be an order for the F-35, the Spanish Defence Ministry has as good as confirmed it. What remains in doubt is the overall size and composition of it. However, Airbus has been pushing for a 3rd batch of Typhoon, a Halcon III, deal. It's pretty certain that there will be around 30 x F-35 ordered, with at least 15 of them being F-35B, perhaps the entire fleet....the only real doubt is if the Spanish Gov buys a 3rd batch of Typhoon, more than 30 F-35 or decides not to replace like for like...
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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Timmymagic wrote: 19 Sep 2023, 23:18
Spitfire9 wrote: 19 Sep 2023, 11:09 I understand that Spain will need F-35B for its carrier. I wonder if the forthcoming Typhoon order means that Spain will not be ordering any F-35A as Hornets are retired at the end of the decade but rather replace them with Typhoon. I presume that outcome would make FCAS partner Germany happier.
There are 84 EF-18 and a further 13 AV-8B+ to replace in total.

Halcon I replaces the oldest EF-18 based on the Canaries, with 20 new Tranche 4 Typhoon.
Halcon II replaces some of the remaining EF-18 based in mainland Spain with 25 Tranche 4 Typhoon

However...on a like for like basis there are still c50-55 a/c left to replace...(there were 15 AV-8B+ at one point)

There will be an order for the F-35, the Spanish Defence Ministry has as good as confirmed it. What remains in doubt is the overall size and composition of it. However, Airbus has been pushing for a 3rd batch of Typhoon, a Halcon III, deal. It's pretty certain that there will be around 30 x F-35 ordered, with at least 15 of them being F-35B, perhaps the entire fleet....the only real doubt is if the Spanish Gov buys a 3rd batch of Typhoon, more than 30 F-35 or decides not to replace like for like...
If they buy F35, I see zero point with continuing to be a member of FCAS. I would go as far as to say, they don't have the cash for pointless duplication of the same capability.

It's one or the other, I can see them leaving the Franco German alliance to squabble among themselves and just ordering F35A and B.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by SD67 »

As others have said, I'd wager Spain and Germany end up leaving and buying F35s in various versions

The Franco-German thing gets refocussed on drones, electronics

France do a mega deal with India involving Rafael evolutions, nuclear technology, submarines and eventually FCAS in the late 2040s. (only question I have there is the engine - Rolls are well established in India)

GCAP continues as is with some Saudi involvement down the road but not pre 2027

The Israelis get NGAD

Poland expand their thriving Partnership with Korea

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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https://x.com/ukdefencefin/status/17044 ... SrZTkNlgBA

Typhoon road operations

First ever RAF Typhoon operating from a Finnish road strip. Thanks to Karelia Air Command for sharing your expertise. RAF Agile Combat Employment in action.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by SD67 »

Wouldn't the position of the intake be problematic, it looks like a giant hoover

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

SD67 wrote: 20 Sep 2023, 15:05 Wouldn't the position of the intake be problematic, it looks like a giant hoover
Not necessarily jet engine intakes have a very wide suck area regardless of their position.

Why everyone is FOD in the brain around them. I would think the road will of been swept before they use it

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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Impressive!


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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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Spanish (language) article on the future of their air force and Typhoon's role in it:

https://www.elconfidencial.com/tecnolog ... a_3739022/

There's also an unbelievably depressing interactive graphic that shows how the UK now has now been relegated to the seventh largest fast jet fleet in Europe.
The strange accounts of the Eurofighter
The Defense budgets for 2023, presented in October last year, surprised by the amounts and novelties. Some caused rivers of ink to flow, especially the happy replacement of the F-18. Two paragraphs appeared in this regard; one as a "replacement aircraft for the C.15M" and the other as a "replacement aircraft for the AV-8B and C.15M 2nd Phase". The first referred to the replacement of a part of the fleet of peninsular F-18 (the EF-18M or C.15M), because those of the Canary Islands (the 20 F/A-18C) already had a replacement plan with the Falcon Program and its budget – just over 2,000 million – included in the expansion of the original Eurofighter program. This section is endowed with 4,500 million euros spread over four years from 2023 and is resolved with the Falcon II program, which includes 25 new Eurofighters. With the 20 Halcon I Eurofighters already ordered, we only have 38 EF-18M fighters left to replace.

Here some of you, calculator in hand, will think that there is something that does not add up. They are right. How can it be that the 20 fighters of Falcon I come out for 2,000 million and the 25 of Falcon II for 4,500? With Halcón I there was already something that did not fit for analysts in the sector. It cannot be that a Eurofighter for Spain goes for 102 million and an almost identical one costs 156 million to Germany. It also makes no sense that a copy of Falcon II, basically the same, now costs 184 million (€ 4,500 M / 25 units). The explanation for this mess of numbers is that a part of the financing of Falcon I could not – or did not want – to be put in at the time of its approval and that deficit, plus some other addition of the modernizations in progress, is now added in Falcon II. Therefore, the accounts that would have to be done are to add the amounts of both programs and divide by the total number of aircraft. Thus, each Eurofighter comes out to us at about 147 million, which already fits with the price of the Germans, who will have some things more than ours.
Some interesting snippets also of the F-35b, which is apparently becoming known as 'Voldermort' due to the reluctance of mentioning out loud and angering the French:
Second phase: Harrier and Voldemort
All of the above has already been approved. But of those two sections of the 2023 budget, the second is still pending. The one that expressly refers to the replacement of the Harrier of the Navy and a second phase of replacement of the rest of the fleet of EF-18M. The allocation here is 6,250 million euros, also in four years. We come to the most interesting, controversial and we could say even funny part, if it were not for the first-order implications it has. We are talking about replacing 12 + 1 Harrier (12 cars and a two-seater trainer TAV-8B) and 38 EF-18M. Let's go in parts. To replace the Navy's Harriers there is only one alternative. That cursed plane, that unmentionable one that continues to be said that "it is not contemplated"; that, as someone said, "does not work for Europe", but that will end up flying in many European countries, except France and some other exceptions. The fact is that this plane, also known in professional circles as Voldemort – that villain of juvenile novel that should not be named – is the dividing line between keeping a fixed wing on board or not having it, with all the implications that this would have.

What about the Air and Space Force? For the replacement of your EF-18M there are alternatives, better or worse, cheaper or more expensive, but there are. Therefore, the air force does not have the serious problem and distress that the Navy faces. In their case, we are talking about losing strategic and tactical capabilities fundamental to their operations. As a new fighter could be contemplated the purchase of more Eurofighter. Something like a Falcon III. Of course, it would be necessary to pull with these aircraft minimum until 2045, coinciding with the arrival of FCAS and dealing with the generational leap that would mean going from a fourth generation design (or fourth plus) to a sixth one. If we exclude the 12 of the Navy and assign them a budget according to their only alternative, we could estimate that there would be about 3,850 million left, which would give for about 26 aircraft. It could do, although it seems a somewhat fair figure. We would exchange 38 EF-18M for 26 Eurofighter of the latest version. But the Air and Space Force prefers another solution. Much has been insisted on the convenience of operating with a second model, instead of basing all the force on the European Eurofighter and that, in addition, this new fighter was of fifth generation. It's logical. Basing all your strength on a single type has the enormous advantage of commonality and economy of scale, but also the enormous risk of putting, as they say, all eggs in the same basket. If one day there were a problem — as has already happened — that forced the fleet to be grounded, we would be left without air defense. Our air force (and those of all countries that can) has always worked with two models and two suppliers for this reason, alternating French and American, such as the Mirage III and F-5, Mirage F-1 and Phantom and, now, Eurofighter and F-18.

Of course, a second model, different from the Eurofighter and that is fifth generation, takes us back to where it seems we do not want to go, to the unmentionable. Let us, however, do an exercise in imagination and see what would result. For the Navy it would be its 12 aircraft and there would be a budget for about 19-20 copies for the air force, which would give to equip a Squadron. It is true that numerical strength is lost, which is not good, but it is a good starting point and a lot would be gained in the rest of the factors, from individual capacity, operational capabilities, interoperability with other countries and experience in superior generation designs. This is the solution adopted by Italy, the United Kingdom and Germany, all, coincidentally, our partners in the Eurofighter.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

SD67 wrote: 20 Sep 2023, 15:05 Wouldn't the position of the intake be problematic, it looks like a giant hoover
Typhoon's intake is in front of the front wheel, this helps enormously as the front wheel kicks up dust and debris.

Also....the Typhoon's intake are further from the ground than Gripen's intakes....they're also higher off the ground than F/A-18's...look at both of their front undercariage as well....

Truth is, no Western aircraft (since Jaguar and Tornado) are as well designed as the MiG-29 with its FOD covers and louvres for off-base ops. But MiG-29 was an extreme example for genuine rough field operations i.e. grass strips, specifically for Soviet Frontal Aviation (given its anaemic range it needed to be as close as possible to the front). With the preponderance of decent roads and huge numbers of airbases/airports the West doesn't really need that sort of operation.

But Typhoon is arguably as well suited as any...particularly with its phenomenal thrust.
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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Jensy wrote: 21 Sep 2023, 14:05 Of course, a second model, different from the Eurofighter and that is fifth generation, takes us back to where it seems we do not want to go, to the unmentionable. Let us, however, do an exercise in imagination and see what would result. For the Navy it would be its 12 aircraft and there would be a budget for about 19-20 copies for the air force, which would give to equip a Squadron. It is true that numerical strength is lost, which is not good, but it is a good starting point and a lot would be gained in the rest of the factors, from individual capacity, operational capabilities, interoperability with other countries and experience in superior generation designs. This is the solution adopted by Italy, the United Kingdom and Germany, all, coincidentally, our partners in the Eurofighter.
Much as I'd love to see a Halcon III, particularly with the decent effect it has for Warton, the sensible move for Spain is to just buy 30 F-35. I'd even argue that they should all be F-35B. They did in fact once have 15 AV-8B so that would be necessary for long term carrier ops. Having another 15 to give the Air Force experience with LO operations, and the potential for expeditionary operations would be a better idea than having a split fleet. Partnering with Italy for training and support would also make sense. The USMC would also appreciate having another F-35B main base in the Mediterranean area, especially given the USN base at Rota. 75 x Typhoon Tranche 4 and F-35B is a decent replacement for 90+ old EF-18 and AV-8B in terms of capability. Any budget left over spend on long range UAV's....
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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Sunak urges Germany to approve £5bn Eurofighter sale to Saudis
PM pressures Olaf Scholz to lift veto on Typhoon combat jets - The Times (£)


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/suna ... -qmtprbskb
Rishi Sunak has privately urged the German chancellor to unlock a flagship delivery of Eurofighter Typhoon combat jets to Saudi Arabia, The Times understands.

The prime minister has put himself at the centre of a concerted lobbying campaign to persuade Germany to approve the sale of the 48 jets, which is likely to carry a price tag of well over £5 billion and has been identified as a strategically vital interest for Britain.

The UK is believed to have threatened to use a long-established legal clause to try and cut Germany out of the order altogether amid intense disputes within the ruling coalition in Berlin.
In July James Cleverly, the foreign secretary, urged his opposite number Annalena Baerbock to reconsider Germany’s opposition to the delivery. Last month Sunak took it up in a telephone call with Scholz. Sources say Scholz replied that he understood the British position but had difficulty winning over some of his coalition partners.

That same week Sir Tim Barrow, the UK national security advisor, is understood to have made a robust case for the deal at a meeting in the German defence ministry. A British diplomat was also dispatched to try and talk around leading opponents in the Bundestag.

The Britons pointed to a clause in the original Eurofighter contracts that provides for their components to be manufactured elsewhere if one of the members of the consortium blocks the export of the jets.
The possibility of legal action was first reported by Handelsblatt, a German business newspaper. However, the UK is believed to have reservations about getting stuck in a court case that could drag on for years and poison the Anglo-German relationship with no certainty of success. German officials also believe the underlying legal arguments are weak.

Scholz’s government is divided over the Eurofighter question. The chancellor, his inner circle and several other figures in his ruling coalition are thought to favour giving the delivery the green light. Last year Scholz approved licences for the sale of Eurofighter spare parts to Saudi Arabia in a move that was seen as testing the waters for a broader shift in policy.
I'd be curious just how much it would cost to pursue the highlighted clause and why we haven't done so after the last decade or so of German perfidy over exports.

From Handelsblatt, who broke the Times story, regarding this clause:
According to a declaration of intent from 1986, “none of the partner nations prevent the sale or approval of the sale of the program's products or systems to third parties,” the federal government replied to a small question from the left-wing faction in 2018.
But according to insiders, the clause is even more far-reaching: If one partner refuses an export permit, another partner can produce the required parts themselves, which would previously have come from the country with the refusal attitude. The objector could thus be forced out of Eurofighter production.
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by SD67 »

Has the PM suddenly grown a pair? But the Civil service are still pathetic though "risk poisoning Anglo German relations" sheesh that's a great negotiating position
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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SD67 wrote: 26 Sep 2023, 19:03 Has the PM suddenly grown a pair? But the Civil service are still pathetic though "risk poisoning Anglo German relations" sheesh that's a great negotiating position
I daresay nothing will piss the Germans off as much as Brexit.

You've also got to consider just how effective "privately urging" has worked, considering it's being reported in The Times...

As far as SCAF goes, I genuinely feel sorry for France.

P.S: The Times Berlin correspondent is now claiming "signs of a possible breakthrough":

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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Yeah "Privately urging" on the same day the King is in France on a State Visit getting the full red carpet treatment ;-)
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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RAF operating in NATO member Finland.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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Jensy wrote: 26 Sep 2023, 19:19
SD67 wrote: 26 Sep 2023, 19:03 Has the PM suddenly grown a pair? But the Civil service are still pathetic though "risk poisoning Anglo German relations" sheesh that's a great negotiating position
I daresay nothing will piss the Germans off as much as Brexit.

You've also got to consider just how effective "privately urging" has worked, considering it's being reported in The Times...

As far as SCAF goes, I genuinely feel sorry for France.

P.S: The Times Berlin correspondent is now claiming "signs of a possible breakthrough":
I think Saudi Arabia is highly likely to simply transfer the Thypoon order to a wider Tempest programme buy in.

If this drags on much past 2024 and GCAP gets through the initial hurdles, then Germany will miss out economically.

It shows us what an unreliable partner Germany is....

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by SD67 »

Exactly - if the order is not placed this year what is the point? Roll it into Tempest. I really do wonder what the French are thinking when they watch this melodrama

Also - I suspect if we were France the entire Boxer program would have been cancelled by now

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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London should admit one fact that was clear from the beginning of the current coalition in Berlin: the cohesion of the coalition will always prevail over any international and commercial issue.
https://www.defense-aerospace.com/why-b ... d-to-fail/

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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Jensy wrote: 28 Sep 2023, 17:32
London should admit one fact that was clear from the beginning of the current coalition in Berlin: the cohesion of the coalition will always prevail over any international and commercial issue.
https://www.defense-aerospace.com/why-b ... d-to-fail/
Time to shift focus from Eurofighter to Tempest, I think. Always assuming that Japan does not object to supplying fighter aircraft to a country like Saudi Arabia.

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