Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

[Tempest414]

S2087 has a very long history, already, first introduced on 2004. If RN were to use it until 2050, it is 45 years of operation.

It's already received a massive upgrade in service. But it will probably end up like Triggers Broom....

The fact that we and others still regard it as the best out there is seen by its recent sales to the likes of the USN for the Constellation Class in its CAPTAS 4 form (which doesn't have all the 2087 bells and whistles).

I remember watching a documentary aboard one of the T23 GPs and they didn't use their sonar. It was old, never upgraded and had an accent CRT display that wasn't integrated into the new combat system.

Difference is these are the current state of the art. And will be the bow sonar for RN ASW activities for the next 30 years.

Not saying S2087 nor S2150 is obsolete. But, two things must be taken into account.

1: old ones have old systems, and surely new ones has much more improved electronics and software kits = Evolving.

2: the hardware may well see corrosion as they are installed in the sea-water. So, "reuse" may not be cheap, and "new" assets (although with the same name) will be procured.

So what dose this mean for Type 26 what we now know is the batch 2 ships with this new order for S2150 cost 846 million so as said what will be the cost of S2087 and Artisan will they be second hand or new and who is paying for them

[donald_of_tokyo]

So what dose this mean for Type 26 what we now know is the batch 2 ships with this new order for S2150 cost 846 million so as said what will be the cost of S2087 and Artisan will they be second hand or new and who is paying for them

I think we do not need to discuss about this. Just wait, and contracts will be announced.

We did not expected the "new" S2150 for 5 T26, and we actually do not even know if it is really new or not.

[Tempest414]

So what dose this mean for Type 26 what we now know is the batch 2 ships with this new order for S2150 cost 846 million so as said what will be the cost of S2087 and Artisan will they be second hand or new and who is paying for them

I think we do not need to discuss about this. Just wait, and contracts will be announced.

We did not expected the "new" S2150 for 5 T26, and we actually do not even know if it is really new or not.

No why should we not talk about extra moneythen it comes to type 26 they have a cost and extra money spent on type 26 has to be found.

The S2150's for the Batch 1's were also pay for by the MOD where the S2087's were paid for by BAE

[donald_of_tokyo]

So what dose this mean for Type 26 what we now know is the batch 2 ships with this new order for S2150 cost 846 million so as said what will be the cost of S2087 and Artisan will they be second hand or new and who is paying for them

I think we do not need to discuss about this. Just wait, and contracts will be announced.

We did not expected the "new" S2150 for 5 T26, and we actually do not even know if it is really new or not.

No why should we not talk about extra moneythen it comes to type 26 they have a cost and extra money spent on type 26 has to be found.

The S2150's for the Batch 1's were also pay for by the MOD where the S2087's were paid for by BAE

?? Sorry I could not understand your point. My point is, there are so many "new info" coming these days.
- S2087 is reused or not?
- Are there remaining S2087 coming from T23?
- S2150 is totally new or something is reused?
We do not know either of these information, to my understanding. And, we shall wait for additional information. I just think so, because these info will be known within a year or so.

For example, I want to "see" the S2087 to be mounted on T26-hull1, while the 8-systems are still onboard T23. The VDS and TASS can be easily moved among the ships, while the systems integration cannot be done so. I am not yet sure of the Thales contract for 3 more S2087 is full-set of 3 new ones. And, I think, delivery of the system will be soon, and it will be clearer within an year or so. For me, this is a good reason to wait that info.

S2150 is the same for me.

[Poiuytrewq]

Here it is.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... tile-world

[donald_of_tokyo]

Here it is.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... tile-world

Not so exciting nor pressing? There are many vague comments, well worth trying to "understand" the meaning. Oh, ammo increase with £2.5Bn is stated. Salary (and estate) are also stated. I agree Ammo and Salary is the most important for UK MOD. But, nothing is clearly written to cut or to increase. (may be because I am not a native English speaker, it's too difficult to read ?)

[Poiuytrewq]

Not so exciting nor pressing?

If I had to sum it up in a couple of sentences they would be:

We asked the Treasury for more money and they said no so we have nothing to refresh and therefore this document is a complete waste of time.

All outstanding issues still unresolved but due to the general election next year the copious amounts of jam that are just around the corner have now been deferred until after the next review in 2025.

[serge750]

SPOT ON

[Poiuytrewq]

This Indo-Pacific part of the DCPR is particularly underwhelming:

25. We support the vision for a free and open Indo-Pacific, in line with our values and the values of many of our partners, and our position as a permanent member of the United Nations Security Council. The ‘tilt’ to the Indo- Pacific has been a whole-of-government effort, requiring an alignment of our defence activity to our diplomatic, commercial, industrial and technological strengths as part of a cohered approach to the region. We have more than delivered on the defence commitments we made to the tilt. Since 2021, we have:
• Increased our persistent presence in the region. We have deployed two Offshore Patrol Vessels to the Indo-Pacific on a permanent basis. In their first year of operation, they enforced UN sanctions against North Korea, worked with the Fijian government to combat illegal fishing, delivered Covid vaccines to Pitcairn, and
provided humanitarian assistance to Tonga following the January 2022 Tsunami.
• Demonstrated our hard-power reach to
the region through the deployment of the aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth and her Carrier Strike Group in 2021. This was
a journey of 55,000 nautical miles which stretched from the Eastern Atlantic to Japan and back, and involved UK military and diplomatic engagement with more than forty nations, including the first ever tri-service military exercises between the UK and India. The Carrier Strike Group will return
to the Indo-Pacific in 2025, representing the UK’s commitment to exercise the best capabilities our Armed Forces have to offer alongside partners in the region.
• Expanded our engagement across the region. This has been achieved through an expanded network of Defence Attachés, as well as regular deployments and training visits, including the participation of Typhoon aircraft in Exercise Pitch Black in Australia in 2022 and the Army’s exercises in Australia, Republic of Korea and with Five Power Defence Arrangements (FPDA) partners.
Exercise PITCH BLACK with Royal Australian Air Force and the Royal Air Force UK together
84 Defence’s response to a more contested and volatile world

26. We will now maintain the progress we have made, putting the tilt on to a long-term, strategic, sustainable footing, including through delivering on our campaigning approach: strengthening our presence, deepening our partnerships, robustly defending international norms and values, and helping grow regional resilience. In his visit to Singapore in June 2023, the Defence Secretary restated our commitment to promoting prosperity and stability in the region.
27. Our existing military footprint includes our base in the British Indian Ocean Territory, the British Army presence in Nepal and Brunei, British Defence Staffs in Singapore and Australia, and a network of attachés across the region.
28. We will work to enhance the resilience and capabilities of key partners through training and military exercises. This will include pulsed deployments of both equipment and people to the region. The Littoral Response Group will be ready to periodically deploy to the Indo Pacific from later this year. In June 2023, the Defence Secretary reinforced that, given upholding the open international order requires a collective effort, we will deepen our investment in regional groupings, including the Five Power Defence Arrangements (FPDA), ASEAN
(we have applied to join the Defence Ministers’ Meeting Plus) and the Five Eyes partnership. We also remain committed to supporting the strengthening of NATO’s relationships with its partners in the region.
29. We will also strengthen our bilateral cooperation with partners in the region, including through industrial collaboration, continuing to provide a spectrum of capabilities
and valued expertise that complements those of our other allies and partners.
30. Australia and New Zealand are amongst the UK’s closest and longest- standing partners, bound together through shared history and values, as well as through the Commonwealth and the Five Eyes partnership, and now – for Australia – AUKUS. The UK will work closely with both countries across the full breadth of our shared agendas.
31. Japan is one of our closest security partners in the Indo-Pacific, with a shared approach to security challenges and a commitment to an open international order. Building on the deepened capability and technological cooperation through GCAP,
and the recently signed Hiroshima Accord, the Reciprocal Access Agreement with Japan will allow our forces to deploy to one another’s countries for large scale exercises and operations. Underpinned by a commitment to interoperability, under the Reciprocal Access Agreement we will develop an ambitious programme of larger, more frequent, complex, and practical joint exercises and planning, including through the future deployment of the UK’s Carrier Strike Group to the Indo-Pacific. Recent agreements with Japan represent a generational opportunity to deepen our strategic relationship across a spectrum of areas. We will reinforce our current defence governance structure, including through establishing a new high level defence dialogue, to ensure that we pursue all opportunities to strengthen defence cooperation.
32. India is a key partner and growing our relationship will remain a significant component of our engagement in the region. We intend to work together in the Western Indian Ocean and we also recognise the important role India has
Strength through our Partnerships 85

to play on the global stage. We will seek to deepen industrial partnerships, move capability collaboration to new levels, and explore shared export opportunities, building on the UK-India 2030 Roadmap.
33. We will also pursue deeper bilateral defence relationships with other countries in the region. This will include the Republic of Korea and Indonesia, with whom we have Defence Roadmaps, Singapore, Vietnam and Pakistan. And we will talk to China about peace and stability in the Indo-Pacific and the need for China to play a responsible global role.

We appear to have a confirmed change of policy. The LRG(S) is due to “periodically deploy” rather than be forward based. Perhaps I am reading too much into it but apart from name dropping every friendly country in the region the ambition appears gently scaled back to a “sustainable footing”. Does that suggest the OPVs are staying on an “permanent basis”? Are the T31s still relieving them when the RB1s decommission around 2028?

Is the UK now proposing only one CSG deployment to the Indo Pacific every 4 years?

It says a lot that after producing a document such as this that RN is actually going to have to clarify if current planning has indeed changed or whether this alphabet soup just wasn’t written thoughtfully or with enough care and attention.

[Poiuytrewq]

Just for comparison, this is how it should be written.

https://researchbriefings.files.parliam ... P98-91.pdf

That is if you actually want anyone to fully understand it.

[wargame_insomniac]

This Indo-Pacific part of the DCPR is particularly underwhelming:

We appear to have a confirmed change of policy. The LRG(S) is due to “periodically deploy” rather than be forward based. Perhaps I am reading too much into it but apart from name dropping every friendly country in the region the ambition appears gently scaled back to a “sustainable footing”. Does that suggest the OPVs are staying on an “permanent basis”? Are the T31s still relieving them when the RB1s decommission around 2028?

Is the UK now proposing only one CSG deployment to the Indo Pacific every 4 years?

It says a lot that after producing a document such as this that RN is actually going to have to clarify if current planning has indeed changed or whether this alphabet soup just wasn’t written thoughtfully or with enough care and attention.

Given that the Uk's 30 Year National Shipbuilding Strategy had included replacing the River RB1s with new OPVs, I always assumed that the bulk of the River RB2s would continue to be deployed to the areas that they are now.

I assumed that the 5*T31s would merely replace the (then 5, currently 3*T26 GP frigates). So I would expect the 1st T31 to go to the Gulf, 1 to Oman for LRG(S), 1 to maybe the Med, 1 to FRE, 1t maybe LRG(N).

Currently LRG(S) is going to soon be just Argus. As it is just the one ship then without extra crew it would be tough for it to be permanently deployed to Indo Pacific. I assume that new wording that you quoted was to cover the fact that it would nt be permanently available in Indo Pacific.

I am assuming that RN / RFA can't afford to double crew any ship other than previously Montrose, currently Lancaster, which is advance deployed to the Persian Gulf just to save the time saaiiling back and forward to UK. Even though Argus will be (presumably) operationally based from Oman, maybe it still neds to rotate back to UK for crew training and leave??

[Repulse]

The whole report is particularly underwhelming in terms of detail, but I guess Williamson didn’t want to go out being the person who scrapped x or y.

In the fullness of time this will come apparent. However, whilst I would have liked them clearer it does set the discussion of objectives first before discussion on fantasy fleets which would have been the focus and headlines.

The messages are subtle. I welcome the Global Reaction Force, and whilst the detail is very high level it in my mind opens a fully integrated purple (all service) force almost the equivalent of the USMC.

For the RN, the commentary of expected involvement in the IndoPacifc region is particularly interesting for setting expectations.

The ‘tilt’ to the Indo- Pacific has been a whole-of-government effort, requiring an alignment of our defence activity to our diplomatic, commercial, industrial and technological strengths as part of a cohered approach to the region

As SW1 it’s not all about the military and it’s not all about the RN.

pulsed deployments

The end of discussion of forward basing fantasy fleets please.

The Littoral Response Group will be ready to periodically deploy to the Indo Pacific from later this year.

This confirms the reality, there will be only one LRG, and it will likely be tied to a CSG hence it’s all about CEPP.

Australia and New Zealand are amongst the UK’s closest and longest-standing partners… India is a key partner and growing our relationship will remain a significant component of our engagement in the region.

Commonwealth will become more important as part of UK military thinking. Perhaps not Commonwealth fleets, but maybe increased joint training etc so it could be an option in time of conflict.

In terms of Williams speech the phrase (not exact), the following is interesting:

cut capabilities do not delay / prolong procurement

There is no more money

[Repulse]

…I always assumed that the bulk of the River RB2s would continue to be deployed to the areas that they are now.

I assumed that the 5*T31s would merely replace the (then 5, currently 3*T26 GP frigates). So I would expect the 1st T31 to go to the Gulf, 1 to Oman for LRG(S), 1 to maybe the Med, 1 to FRE, 1t maybe LRG(N).

Currently LRG(S) is going to soon be just Argus. As it is just the one ship then without extra crew it would be tough for it to be permanently deployed to Indo Pacific. I assume that new wording that you quoted was to cover the fact that it would nt be permanently available in Indo Pacific.

I am assuming that RN / RFA can't afford to double crew any ship other than previously Montrose, currently Lancaster, which is advance deployed to the Persian Gulf just to save the time saaiiling back and forward to UK. Even though Argus will be (presumably) operationally based from Oman, maybe it still neds to rotate back to UK for crew training and leave??

All good points.

It seems that LRG(S) is dead before it is born, which was always inevitable. However, it’s not dead in the way people think (e.g. no RMs / Littoral manoeuvre EoS), it’s just stating that for a permanent presence it’s in the form of RFA Argus. I would hope that a similar ship would be part of the future EoS package.

Whilst I have argued and agree that it’s likely the B2 Rivers will remain in their current roles (and the B1s replaced by other OPVs), if a relatively small amount of money could be found I think a significant improvement of capabilities that match the objectives could be made.

If the B1 Rivers could be replaced by two of the EoS B2 Rivers, then the three replacements could be more useful. I would build three extended B3 Rivers with small USV / UAV mission bays and modest increased self defence capabilities - assigning two to Kipion and another in the UK. This would allow the T31 to be based in Oman, in hand if needed to assist in the Gulf, but also with more freedom to engage more broadly in the region.

This would also satisfy the LSV requirement.

[Anthony58]

Ben Wallace not Williamson/Williams is Secretary of State for Defence.

[shark bait]

may be because I am not a native English speaker, it's too difficult to read

Difficult for this native too! It's nonsense words. It's what students do to stretch out 2 pages of content over 97 pages. How on earth the Defence Sec thinks this is worth publishing is beyond me!

[Poiuytrewq]

may be because I am not a native English speaker, it's too difficult to read

How on earth the Defence Sec thinks this is worth publishing is beyond me!

Did he resign because he was forced to publish it?

Why has it taken so long and caused so much acrimony between the cabinet office and the MoD if it’s a vanilla document that offends no one?

Was the detail removed at the eleventh hour?

[donald_of_tokyo]

may be because I am not a native English speaker, it's too difficult to read

How on earth the Defence Sec thinks this is worth publishing is beyond me!

Did he resign because he was forced to publish it?

Why has it taken so long and caused so much acrimony between the cabinet office and the MoD if it’s a vanilla document that offends no one?

Was the detail removed at the eleventh hour?

I suspect, BW refused to agree on many cuts needed, and therefore all the "numbers" were erased. A good way to make it "ambiguous".

[Timmymagic]

No why should we not talk about extra moneythen it comes to type 26 they have a cost and extra money spent on type 26 has to be found.

The S2150's for the Batch 1's were also pay for by the MOD where the S2087's were paid for by BAE

?? Sorry I could not understand your point. My point is, there are so many "new info" coming these days.
- S2087 is reused or not?
- Are there remaining S2087 coming from T23?
- S2150 is totally new or something is reused?
We do not know either of these information, to my understanding. And, we shall wait for additional information. I just think so, because these info will be known within a year or so.

For example, I want to "see" the S2087 to be mounted on T26-hull1, while the 8-systems are still onboard T23. The VDS and TASS can be easily moved among the ships, while the systems integration cannot be done so. I am not yet sure of the Thales contract for 3 more S2087 is full-set of 3 new ones. And, I think, delivery of the system will be soon, and it will be clearer within an year or so. For me, this is a good reason to wait that info.

S2150 is the same for me.
[/quote]

Yes we do.

Sonar 2087
- 8 x Sea-going Sonar 2087 at present fitted on ASW Type 23's.
- They have ordered an additional 3 x full Sonar 2087 sets for the first 3, Batch 1, Type 26 Frigates. This is so that the sonar can be fitted to the new Type 26 in build without removing 3 sets from active Type 23 and therefore leaving the RN with 5 active ASW vessels whilst the T26 are finished and undergo trials before entering service.
- Once the first 3 x Type 26 are in service the RN will have 3 Sonar 2087 sets 'spare' that have been removed from the first Type 23's that are retired, these sets will then be installed on the next 3 x Type 26...
- At the end of the build of the 8 x Type 26 the RN will have 3 spare Sonar 2087 sets...for a total of 11 seagoing sets in total.

Sonar 2150

- All 8 x ASW Type 23 are being fitted with new Sonar 2150 at present
- An additional 8 new Sonar 2150 are being purchased specifically for Type 26
- When all 8 Type 26 are in service, with 8 ASW type 23 retired this will mean the RN has 8 spare Sonar 2150....for a total of 16 seagoing sets.

I can only assume that as the cost of Sonar 2150 is significantly less than Sonar 2087 that any benefits to doing a switch and reuse of existing sets when a ship is in build is seen as either marginal or not worth the effort and hassle.

Bottom line is RN will have 3 spare Sonar 2087, 8 spare Sonar 2150, 16 spare DS30M and at least 5 spare Artisan sets when all T23 are retired...and 26 recently refurbished twin torpedo tubes and magazine loading systems...thats a lot of expensive kit...

[donald_of_tokyo]

Yes we do.

Sonar 2087
- 8 x Sea-going Sonar 2087 at present fitted on ASW Type 23's.
- They have ordered an additional 3 x full Sonar 2087 sets for the first 3, Batch 1, Type 26 Frigates. This is so that the sonar can be fitted to the new Type 26 in build without removing 3 sets from active Type 23 and therefore leaving the RN with 5 active ASW vessels whilst the T26 are finished and undergo trials before entering service.
- Once the first 3 x Type 26 are in service the RN will have 3 Sonar 2087 sets 'spare' that have been removed from the first Type 23's that are retired, these sets will then be installed on the next 3 x Type 26...
- At the end of the build of the 8 x Type 26 the RN will have 3 spare Sonar 2087 sets...for a total of 11 seagoing sets in total.

Not sure. Replacing the VDS and TASS cables onboard T23 happens frequently. Re-using them will take only a week. Other parts need more time, yes (and I'm guessing those are what were ordered. But not sure). My point is, I am still not sure if the 3 fishes and 3 tails are newly bought.

Sonar 2150
- All 8 x ASW Type 23 are being fitted with new Sonar 2150 at present
- An additional 8 new Sonar 2150 are being purchased specifically for Type 26
- When all 8 Type 26 are in service, with 8 ASW type 23 retired this will mean the RN has 8 spare Sonar 2150....for a total of 16 seagoing sets.

8x S2150 are all using the S2050 sensor, with vastly modernized read-out system. Not sure the sensor itself were newly added. Again, this is my point.

Bottom line is RN will have 3 spare Sonar 2087, 8 spare Sonar 2150, 16 spare DS30M and at least 5 spare Artisan sets when all T23 are retired...and 26 recently refurbished twin torpedo tubes and magazine loading systems...thats a lot of expensive kit...

3x Sonar 2087 may become available on 2035-37, after the last 3 T23ASW decommissions. If they exits, "moving" them to T31 might be interesting. In this case, at least 3 T31 must not be added with CAPTAS2/4-like sonar until then.
I'm afraid S2150 does not fit within the sonar dome of T31. Of course, current T31 does NOT have any sonar dome, so adding new one will solve the issue. But, anyway, I understand Iver Huitfeldt-class's sonar dome is too small to accomodate S2150.

Just comment, nothing to argue.

[Poiuytrewq]

Closer to production.

[Poiuytrewq]

Air to air?



That’s a capability I wasn’t expecting!

[Tempest414]

Air to air?



That’s a capability I wasn’t expecting!

As a surface based laser guided anti air weapon it makes sense it can be fired from any stable platform it also means that if S-100 camcopter is carrying it they too will be able to down other drones or fast boats with LMM

The USAF carried out trials using 70mm APKWS rockets fired from F-16 to down drones

[Poiuytrewq]

Is RN ready for this?

https://www.navylookout.com/ukraine-war ... us-threat/

[serge750]

If they can be detected early enough ! then a 57mm or LMM on a wildcat should do the job.....

[shark bait]

Not sure it's RN material, being very optimized for this specific conflict.

It does make me think the RN has nailed the choice of guns on the T31. A trio of medium looks great for dealing with swarms / suicide boats, and is going to be a far more likely event than NGFS.