Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

[mrclark303]

It's more than a little irritating considering Corporate Germany's 20 year bromance with the Putin regime. China as well is full of German engineers and consultants selling their expertise to a future rival / enemy. The government needs to grow a pair - France by now would have put Boxer on hold pending resolution of all outstanding issues

Also Iran, who the Germans have been happy to sell all manner of tech and dual use equipment to.

Funny how they only seem to discover a moral conscience when there's not a juicy export opportunity...

Meanwhile, in welcome news:





https://raf.mod.uk/news/articles/advanc ... ring-jobs/

All that money, years of waiting and effort for a handful of AESA tranche 3 machines, tranche 1 to be withdrawn, trance 2 no funded integration and they won't....

Why bother really, a handful of exquisite kit, fleets within fleets, hollowed out with absolutely no mass whatsoever.

I'm not unsympathetic to your point of view, but:

- 40 upgraded airframes gives us a serious benefit in A2A capability alongside EW and more

- Hopefully this will prove tech for GCAP

- Only funding stands in the way of a fleet-wide upgrade (Tranche 1 required hardware)

I'm probably just being an old pessimist!
You make a good point, but waiting years as funding was drip fed for a handful of airframes is
(unfortunately exactly what I expected), small fleets within fleets again.....

What we should have done was (at the very least) replaced the 24 outgoing Tranche 1 machines with 24 Trance 4, new radar, cockpit displays etc and brought all Tranche 2 and 3 airframes to the same build standard.

That way you can at least effectively utilise a small fleet, have a capable machine to operate alongside Tempest and 'hopefully' have a viable airframe to sell off on the international market as Tempest deliveries gather in tempo in the 2030's.

[SW1]

It is always always easier and more affordable long term to buy off active production lines something with major upgrades rather than attempting to retrofit to used aircraft.

[Timmymagic]

It is always always easier and more affordable long term to buy off active production lines something with major upgrades rather than attempting to retrofit to used aircraft.

SABR for F-16 is an upgrade of a new AESA radar though...very similar in scope (perhaps not capability though).

[SD67]

I'm not unsympathetic to your point of view, but:

- 40 upgraded airframes gives us a serious benefit in A2A capability alongside EW and more

- Hopefully this will prove tech for GCAP

- Only funding stands in the way of a fleet-wide upgrade (Tranche 1 required hardware)

My issue is the sheer cost overall. And how well it compares to efforts elsewhere. The SABR effort in the US for F-16 appears to be around 1/10th of the cost per aircraft. I know its not apples to oranges, there are probably costs buried elsewhere in the budget and its a less capable radar....but for £20m per aircraft I'd be expecting a new radar, and full MLU, including removal of obsolescence and re-lifing, across the platform...

I tend to agree. When I first saw the cost I assumed this was a Warton valley of death make work project. With a 35% discount being offered to India on new build tranche 4 Typhoons, you could almost make a business case for an extra squadron or two instead of the upgrade.

[Jensy]

I'm not unsympathetic to your point of view, but:

- 40 upgraded airframes gives us a serious benefit in A2A capability alongside EW and more

- Hopefully this will prove tech for GCAP

- Only funding stands in the way of a fleet-wide upgrade (Tranche 1 required hardware)

My issue is the sheer cost overall. And how well it compares to efforts elsewhere. The SABR effort in the US for F-16 appears to be around 1/10th of the cost per aircraft. I know its not apples to oranges, there are probably costs buried elsewhere in the budget and its a less capable radar....but for £20m per aircraft I'd be expecting a new radar, and full MLU, including removal of obsolescence and re-lifing, across the platform...

Agreed, though I would probably have been more shocked were it substantially less.

Could there be additional upgrades on the software side for EW and other capabilities that are being bundled together?

At the other end of the spectrum, you have Japan spending an amount, on each F-15J upgrade, so large I can't understand why they're not ordering new airframes from Boeing, who I suspect would do them a hell of deal to keep the line running.

Indeed on the topic of new Airframes, part of an interesting twitter thread from Francis Tusa following a 'mini-break' at BAE's luxury Lancashire resort.



Will post the GCAP relevant bit in the right thread.

[Timmymagic]

Agreed, though I would probably have been more shocked were it substantially less.

Could there be additional upgrades on the software side for EW and other capabilities that are being bundled together?

I've asked the question elsewhere about it but got no details. We know the Praetorian DASS is getting an upgrade (called Evolution), but I've asked about PIRATE as well.

If this contract was development of the radar, full trials and installation of 40 systems it would make some sense. But...there have been contracts announced before for development. If it was for a full MLU it would be useful, the actual cost per radar and installation would be interesting. Then we would have an idea of if an additional order for the Tranche 2 was possible. Because otherwise they are increasingly obsolete....

It just doesn't make sense that you could buy an entire Typhoon for £100m....but only get a radar for £20m....radar's aren't cheap, but they're not that expensive either...and to be frank if they are we should have gone elsewhere....

EDIT: Forgot that Radar 2 will require the new BAE Large Area Display to work...so a cockpit upgrade as well...but still...its just a screen...still no news on Striker II helmet adoption by the RAF either....

Basically £20m per aircraft should be getting us Radar 2, Striker II helmet, Large Area Display, PIRATE upgrade and a full strip down and relife of components...AMK wouldn't be too much to ask either...

If you add in all the previous funding on radar development etc etc we should be getting new engines, 3D thrust vectoring and resurrection of conformals....because we've pretty much paid for the aircraft twice...

[SW1]

Agreed, though I would probably have been more shocked were it substantially less.

Could there be additional upgrades on the software side for EW and other capabilities that are being bundled together?

I've asked the question elsewhere about it but got no details. We know the Praetorian DASS is getting an upgrade (called Evolution), but I've asked about PIRATE as well.

If this contract was development of the radar, full trials and installation of 40 systems it would make some sense. But...there have been contracts announced before for development. If it was for a full MLU it would be useful, the actual cost per radar and installation would be interesting. Then we would have an idea of if an additional order for the Tranche 2 was possible. Because otherwise they are increasingly obsolete....

It just doesn't make sense that you could buy an entire Typhoon for £100m....but only get a radar for £20m....radar's aren't cheap, but they're not that expensive either...and to be frank if they are we should have gone elsewhere....

EDIT: Forgot that Radar 2 will require the new BAE Large Area Display to work...so a cockpit upgrade as well...but still...its just a screen...still no news on Striker II helmet adoption by the RAF either....

Basically £20m per aircraft should be getting us Radar 2, Striker II helmet, Large Area Display, PIRATE upgrade and a full strip down and relife of components...AMK wouldn't be too much to ask either...

If you add in all the previous funding on radar development etc etc we should be getting new engines, 3D thrust vectoring and resurrection of conformals....because we've pretty much paid for the aircraft twice...

Radars can cost most than the airframe. I give you a non typhoon example a single radar for sentinel nearly cost the same as the price the mod bought all 5 greens airframes from Bombardier for.

[topman]

Agreed, though I would probably have been more shocked were it substantially less.

Could there be additional upgrades on the software side for EW and other capabilities that are being bundled together?

I've asked the question elsewhere about it but got no details. We know the Praetorian DASS is getting an upgrade (called Evolution), but I've asked about PIRATE as well.

If this contract was development of the radar, full trials and installation of 40 systems it would make some sense. But...there have been contracts announced before for development. If it was for a full MLU it would be useful, the actual cost per radar and installation would be interesting. Then we would have an idea of if an additional order for the Tranche 2 was possible. Because otherwise they are increasingly obsolete....

It just doesn't make sense that you could buy an entire Typhoon for £100m....but only get a radar for £20m....radar's aren't cheap, but they're not that expensive either...and to be frank if they are we should have gone elsewhere....

EDIT: Forgot that Radar 2 will require the new BAE Large Area Display to work...so a cockpit upgrade as well...but still...its just a screen...still no news on Striker II helmet adoption by the RAF either....

Basically £20m per aircraft should be getting us Radar 2, Striker II helmet, Large Area Display, PIRATE upgrade and a full strip down and relife of components...AMK wouldn't be too much to ask either...

If you add in all the previous funding on radar development etc etc we should be getting new engines, 3D thrust vectoring and resurrection of conformals....because we've pretty much paid for the aircraft twice...

Don't underestimate how much work a screen upgrade in the cockpit is. The cost of it is nothing really, you're paying for the cost of it working with everything else it needs to.

[mrclark303]

Agreed, though I would probably have been more shocked were it substantially less.

Could there be additional upgrades on the software side for EW and other capabilities that are being bundled together?

I've asked the question elsewhere about it but got no details. We know the Praetorian DASS is getting an upgrade (called Evolution), but I've asked about PIRATE as well.

If this contract was development of the radar, full trials and installation of 40 systems it would make some sense. But...there have been contracts announced before for development. If it was for a full MLU it would be useful, the actual cost per radar and installation would be interesting. Then we would have an idea of if an additional order for the Tranche 2 was possible. Because otherwise they are increasingly obsolete....

It just doesn't make sense that you could buy an entire Typhoon for £100m....but only get a radar for £20m....radar's aren't cheap, but they're not that expensive either...and to be frank if they are we should have gone elsewhere....

EDIT: Forgot that Radar 2 will require the new BAE Large Area Display to work...so a cockpit upgrade as well...but still...its just a screen...still no news on Striker II helmet adoption by the RAF either....

Basically £20m per aircraft should be getting us Radar 2, Striker II helmet, Large Area Display, PIRATE upgrade and a full strip down and relife of components...AMK wouldn't be too much to ask either...

If you add in all the previous funding on radar development etc etc we should be getting new engines, 3D thrust vectoring and resurrection of conformals....because we've pretty much paid for the aircraft twice...

Don't underestimate how much work a screen upgrade in the cockpit is. The cost of it is nothing really, you're paying for the cost of it working with everything else it needs to.

It's obvious to us that all Tranche 2 and 3 machines should be upgraded with the new radar etc and a further batch of 24 to replace the retiring Tranche1 machines should be bought.

There should be one common 'advanced standard' to try and make this small fleet as capable and flexible as possible.

Of course this won't happen and I'm sure we will start retiring Tranche 2 machines due to 'obsolescence' before Tempest is ready...

I'm sure as loyal wingman become available, we will see manned fighters drop even further, not additional mass created.

[SW1]

To set context the CDS did tell the House of Commons committee that the NATO ask incase of mobilisation on the UK for fighter a/c is 4 squadrons of typhoons and 1 f35 sqn.

[new guy]

Radars can cost most than the airframe. I give you a non typhoon example a single radar for sentinel nearly cost the same as the price the mod bought all 5 greens airframes from Bombardier for.

I get what you're saying, after all TSR2 was the first aircraft where the avionics cost more than the airframe 60 years ago...but I'm not sure the limited run Sentinel is a good example....

Thing is we know the cost of a Typhoon Tranche 4 with ECRS Radar 1 due to the Quadriga and Halcon orders, and its not far off Tranche 3 pricing. So it shouldn't be too far adrift for Radar 2. But ultimately, using SABR as an example, other nations are able to do this far, far cheaper....at this price an upgrade will never happen for Tranche 2, which effectively means that they're obsolete now....at least according to what RAF pilots are saying following operations on Shader...

Don't underestimate how much work a screen upgrade in the cockpit is. The cost of it is nothing really, you're paying for the cost of it working with everything else it needs to.

Oh absolutely, BAE have never exactly said its 'plug and play' but they've not been too far away from that...

But just for everyones reference....the Swedish Air Force have awarded a £270m contract late last year to upgrade all of their Gripen C to align with Gripen E (its not a full upgrade to E standard).

Thats 71 aircraft...

New engine, new radar, new EW system, new avionics, full strip down to bare bones refurb....amongst other things.

£4m per aircraft.....and the radar is the ES-05....a smaller variant of the CAPTOR-E...i.e Typhoon's AESA radar....(not exactly the same as Radar 2, but not that far off...).

We're paying c£20m per radar and 24 inch touchscreen....BAE are rinsing us, and the price if the Tranche 2 Typhoon's being essentially obsolete...

[topman]

I doubt 4m is the full cost. A new engine alone would eat most of that, plus all the other items. And a complete strip down. I'm sure it's the number in a press release, I don't believe it's the real total cost.

[Timmymagic]

I doubt 4m is the full cost. A new engine alone would eat most of that, plus all the other items. And a complete strip down. I'm sure it's the number in a press release, I don't believe it's the real total cost.

The Swedes are very transparent, certainly compared to us, I suspect the 'new engine' is an upgrade of the existing F-404 as moving to the F414 would require a new fuselage from the E variant and the radar 'might' be the PS-05A upgrade with GaN AESA array rather than the ES-05. Either way its some serious bang for the buck.

[downsizer]

at this price an upgrade will never happen for Tranche 2, which effectively means that they're obsolete now....at least according to what RAF pilots are saying following operations on Shader...

Got a source for that?

[topman]

I doubt 4m is the full cost. A new engine alone would eat most of that, plus all the other items. And a complete strip down. I'm sure it's the number in a press release, I don't believe it's the real total cost.

The Swedes are very transparent, certainly compared to us, I suspect the 'new engine' is an upgrade of the existing F-404 as moving to the F414 would require a new fuselage from the E variant and the radar 'might' be the PS-05A upgrade with GaN AESA array rather than the ES-05. Either way its some serious bang for the buck.

They've got salesman, same as everybody. Some of their sales stuff is nonsense, don't believe everything you read.

[Timmymagic]

They've got salesman, same as everybody. Some of their sales stuff is nonsense, don't believe everything you read.

Saab's marketing team have, in some ways, done an excellent job of convincing a lot of people (although not buyers) that Gripen is a whole lot more capable than it actually is....but the upgrade programme is a programme of record, not a sales spiel...

[SW1]

It does also depend under which budget column things are accounted for.

So while numbers maybe correct the extras for the whole thing maybe accounted for elsewhere.

[Timmymagic]

at this price an upgrade will never happen for Tranche 2, which effectively means that they're obsolete now....at least according to what RAF pilots are saying following operations on Shader...

Got a source for that?

Francis Tusa spoke to some senior officers on Operation Shader a couple of years ago.

[Spitfire9]

It is reported that Turkey has dropped its objection to Sweden joining NATO. If that means the US will now clear F-16 supplies to Turkey, it will not be in the market for any other fighter, will it?

[Timmymagic]

It is reported that Turkey has dropped its objection to Sweden joining NATO. If that means the US will now clear F-16 supplies to Turkey, it will not be in the market for any other fighter, will it?

Typhoon for Turkey was always a very long shot. F-16 was always going to be approved at some point. Typhoon was often talked about in addition to F-16 to compensate for the lack of F-35. But Turkey's economy isn't in great shape either...

[Icedragon9]

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 023-07-12/

VILNIUS, July 12 (Reuters) - Germany will not deliver Eurofighter combat aircraft to Saudi Arabia in the near future, German Chancellor Olaf Scholz said on Wednesday, after a newspaper quoted a government document as linking any such move to an end of the war in Yemen.

Saudi Arabia leads a coalition that has been battling the Iranian-aligned Houthis in Yemen since 2015. The war has killed tens of thousands of people and left millions hungry.

[TheLoneRanger]

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 023-07-12/

VILNIUS, July 12 (Reuters) - Germany will not deliver Eurofighter combat aircraft to Saudi Arabia in the near future, German Chancellor Olaf Scholz said on Wednesday, after a newspaper quoted a government document as linking any such move to an end of the war in Yemen.

Saudi Arabia leads a coalition that has been battling the Iranian-aligned Houthis in Yemen since 2015. The war has killed tens of thousands of people and left millions hungry.

Hence why we should not make weapons with Germany ( or France ) for that matter !

[NickC]

Another future upgrade, at the recent Royal International Air Tattoo (RIAT) Leonardo, on behalf of the EuroDASS consortium (Leonardo, Elettronica, Indra and Hensoldt), announced a package of improvements to the Praetorian DASS self-protection system, Spain's Indra will increase the bandwidth and incorporate new advanced digital signal processing, jointly developed with Hensoldt, plus new algorithms, as well as increased processing speed, capacity and memory.

https://www.defense-aerospace.com/indra ... ion-suite/

[new guy]

Amaising article by key aero,
https://www.key.aero/article/making-eur ... r%20forces.

Google:MAKING THE EUROFIGHTER TYPHOON OF TODAY FIT FOR TOMORROW : to get around the paywall.

[Spitfire9]

About 15 years ago India opened a tender for licence production of MRCA. Rafale and Typhoon were short listed, Rafale was selected on cost grounds but Dassault could not reach agreement on licence production. Eventually India ordered 36 Rafale to be manufactured in France. In 2018 India started the tender process again, this time for 114 aircraft. 5 years on India has issued a RFI. However, Eurofighter may be blacklisted due to charges of corruption in the supply of BaE Hawks.

https://www.financialexpress.com/busine ... l-3174842/

In May 2023, India’s Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) implicated Rolls Royce India Private Limited and BAE Systems in an alleged scheme to defraud the Government of India during the procurement of Hawk Aircraft. This led to severe concerns about India’s defence procurement processes and cast a harsh light on the roles foreign companies play in the nation’s defence sector.

HAL & SAFRAN to build engines for AMCA and Helicopters
Such a scandal had the potential to sway the decision for India’s next-generation AMCA project, which was in need of a new engine. It was understood that Rolls Royce was in close competition with Safran, the French engine maker. However, the recent allegations significantly influenced India’s decision, tilting it in Safran’s favour.

So BaE and RR being accused of corruption may have cost RR a massive contract (my estimate $5+ billion) and Eurofighter (my estimate $12+ billion) as well.

PS Germany has received quite a lot of flak on this site for refusing to agree to export of Typhoon to SA, a country that killed and chopped up a critical journalist and bombed parts of Yemen back to the stone age. The way I see it, Germany has valid grounds to react to such criminality. I wonder how much flak BaE and RR will receive on German aviation forums (and this) for their alleged criminality.