Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

Contains threads on British Army equipment of the past, present and future.
Timmymagic
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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

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Caribbean wrote: 05 Jun 2023, 13:56 Maybe a redesign to use the lightweight PULS launcher?
Why?

I'm not sure of the reason for peoples fascination with PULS. It's got some sales with countries who have divested themselves of MLRS in the past because they can get a place on the production line relatively quickly, not for any technical reason.

We'll only be purchasing GMLRS-ER and PrSM going forward. The only 'advantage' to PULS is the ability to fire unguided projectiles...if we were going to do that we'd just be resurrecting M26....We already have 30+ years experience with M270, lots of developments on the way for it (LPS, JFS-M, potential CAMM launcher). Plus if we want a wheeled launcher we have a UK built system ready to go if we want...(LIMAWS(R)) that would be a better lightweight option than PULS or HiMARS...

And do we really want to be dependent in any way, shape or form on Israel? After their showing of 'support' for Ukraine and the West in general I think we should be moving to ensure Israeli defence companies have zero presence or sales in the UK...remember Elbit were removed from a large contract recently for Soverignty and Security reasons...
sol wrote: 05 Jun 2023, 14:55 I agree about 120mm for mech battalion, Infantry is getting CG as a replacement for 51mm mortar.
CG is a useful capability....but every time I've seen Ukrainian infantry clearing Russian trenches the real need has been for plunging fire rather than direct fire. They've got loads of RPG solutions to hand. CG as a direct fire weapon alongside a modernised 51mm or at worst the Hirtenberger 60mm that we purchased as a UOR would be ideal.

SW1
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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

Post by SW1 »

Timmymagic wrote: 06 Jun 2023, 08:45
Caribbean wrote: 05 Jun 2023, 13:56 Maybe a redesign to use the lightweight PULS launcher?
Why?

I'm not sure of the reason for peoples fascination with PULS. It's got some sales with countries who have divested themselves of MLRS in the past because they can get a place on the production line relatively quickly, not for any technical reason.

We'll only be purchasing GMLRS-ER and PrSM going forward. The only 'advantage' to PULS is the ability to fire unguided projectiles...if we were going to do that we'd just be resurrecting M26....We already have 30+ years experience with M270, lots of developments on the way for it (LPS, JFS-M, potential CAMM launcher). Plus if we want a wheeled launcher we have a UK built system ready to go if we want...(LIMAWS(R)) that would be a better lightweight option than PULS or HiMARS...

And do we really want to be dependent in any way, shape or form on Israel? After their showing of 'support' for Ukraine and the West in general I think we should be moving to ensure Israeli defence companies have zero presence or sales in the UK...remember Elbit were removed from a large contract recently for Soverignty and Security reasons...
sol wrote: 05 Jun 2023, 14:55 I agree about 120mm for mech battalion, Infantry is getting CG as a replacement for 51mm mortar.
CG is a useful capability....but every time I've seen Ukrainian infantry clearing Russian trenches the real need has been for plunging fire rather than direct fire. They've got loads of RPG solutions to hand. CG as a direct fire weapon alongside a modernised 51mm or at worst the Hirtenberger 60mm that we purchased as a UOR would be ideal.
Why would you not want a launcher that can fire as many different missiles as possible?

You are beholden to no one for expendables then.
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Timmymagic
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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

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SW1 wrote: 06 Jun 2023, 19:42 Why would you not want a launcher that can fire as many different missiles as possible?

You are beholden to no one for expendables then.
The rather obvious solution is we should make our own...


sol
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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

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Little more details about post above

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Ron5

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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

Post by Ron5 »

Mention of 127mm is new.

sol
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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

Post by sol »

Ron5 wrote: 10 Jun 2023, 13:21 Mention of 127mm is new.
Basic idea is to use same shells an naval Mk.45 gun on Type 26 frigates. It could be a good idea for the Royal Marines but not so much for the Army.

Timmymagic
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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

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Something to make the blood boil...basically the UK doing the hard yards to make barrels last longer on full charge and passing it on to the rest of Europe....


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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

Post by wargame_insomniac »

The Hanwha K9A2 SPH was announced last Sept 2022. Now with Composite Rubber tracks:



I wonder how competitive it is price wise to other main rivals for Self Propelled Artillery.
I am a big fan and hope it does well against the comptetition for UK contract.
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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

Post by jedibeeftrix »

gonna be nearly 1000 of these pootling around eastern europe in short order.

will the NATO-firsters jump on the bandwagon? it would at least be a logical proposition.

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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

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RunningStrong
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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

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jedibeeftrix wrote: 10 Jul 2023, 08:28 gonna be nearly 1000 of these pootling around eastern europe in short order.

will the NATO-firsters jump on the bandwagon? it would at least be a logical proposition.
UK offer is K9A2, but I believe for not at least the Polish are settled on the K9A1 equivalent.
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Ian Hall
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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

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Timmymagic
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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

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More news on the BAE Next Generation Adaptable Ammunition.

This will replace the existing L15 shell design which is a licenced version of the Rheinmetall Denel Assegai design. No more licencing cost...but also promises to be far cheaper, more capable of mass production of the shell and explosive content. All good things given the issues in Ukraine.



Article Text

At DSEI 2023 BAE Systems unveiled its new NGAA, the acronym standing for Next Generation Adaptable Ammunition, this new round promising to revolutionise the world of 155 mm rounds addressing among other mass production issues, a key factor in today world
The Russia-Ukraine conflict highlighted the issue of ammunition stocks and of the limited production capacity by an industry tailored to a long peacetime period. BAE Systems launched a programme to develop its Next Generation Adaptable Ammunition, NGAA in short, that will address the production issue while also improving performances and growth potential, keeping also a close eye on compatibility and cost issues.

Steve Cordew, Business Development and Strategy Director and Gavin Crimmings, Head of Engineering, at BAE Systems Land UK, explained the key bullets of the new family of ammunition that in perspective will replace the ageing L15 family in UK service, while looking at a much larger market.

The initiative profits of recent successes on the national and export markets. The key production issue is dealt with thanks to a comprehensive approach that aims at allowing the use of less specialised materiel that can be used by non-defence related industry, converting those into mass ammunition production facilities when the need arises. This has also to involve the supply chain, therefore moving off from defence-specific materiel going to commercially available one is one of the key aspects.

“We will produce the ammunition body using selected commercial steel, moving away from the specialised defence steel used until now, which will allow us to buy it from a much bigger number of suppliers,” BAE Systems speakers explained. EDR On-Line understood that to get as close as possible to the characteristics of the steel used in current ammunition production BAE Systems engineers will apply some different manufacturing methods, namely in the heat treatments. Moreover the NGAA will feature a single shell body, compared to the different ones used nowadays in the L15 family, which will considerably ease production and increase commonality.

Energetic materiel will also be the subject of a revolution; melt-cast composite explosives have good safety and performance characteristics, however their production is difficult to be scaled up as it requires specific skills and equipment “We are moving towards resonance acoustic mixing, RAM in short,” the speakers said, “which is a much faster process, taking down production times from hours to minutes, which increases agility while reducing cost and waste, this technology being better suited for high volume production.” New chemistry is being developed and later this year new announcements will be made by BAE Systems in that field, the aim being to develop a national production capacity.

The most noble part in an artillery round is the fuze. Here too the NGAA programme adopts a disruptive approach, as it will abandon mechanic fuses in favour of an all electronic e-Fuze that adopts complex weapons technologies. This shift will allow BAE Systems to rely on a robust supply chain of off-the shelf components. The e-Fuze will also be scalable, and could be applied to other calibres, such as the naval 5-inch or 127 mm one

EDR On-Line understood the shell will be capable to host modular loads, the most obvious ones being the High Explosive (HE) one based on next generation explosive filling, and the advanced illuminating and smoke payloads, which will feature programmable outputs. The latter will leverage the most advanced solutions in terms of multispectral screening and light producing materiel, such as the New Generation Red Phosphorus.

Modularity will also be applied to the rage extenders, the standard boat tail being replaceable by a base bleed tail increasing range up to 40 km when fired from a 52 calibre barrel, up to a rocket assisted propulsion (RA) module that brings range at over 65 km.

The NGAA will be totally compatible with existing Course Correction fuzes, hence accuracy will be ensured even when using RAP.

The adoption of new materiel and production methods will allow, as anticipated, non defence-related production facility to manufacture these rounds, should the need arise, the switch from peacetime to wartime production being relatively short, the adoption of off-the shelf components also considerably reducing lead time.

As said, competitiveness is a key issue, BAE Systems aiming at a cost reduction between 50% and 75% in the round, however the e-Fuze will probably be cost-neutral according to information provided to EDR On-Line.

BAE Systems is not looking only at today issues, such as production and costs. Its NGAA also aims to be future-proof, payload modularity opening doors, the new round featuring a potential for a range of non-lethal end effects in the electronic warfare, communications and navigation fields, maxing the 155 mm artillery ammunition a fast deployable small uncrewed system, other even more innovative payloads being potentially developed.

How far away is the NGAA? “We plan to demonstrate it in late 2023,” the speakers announced, EDR On-Line understanding that the demo will encompass all the major elements of the new round.
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jedibeeftrix
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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

Post by jedibeeftrix »

wonder if stockpiles of e-fuze ammo will want to be distributed in future...

pondering how damaging it would be to a war effort if an emp went off in the vicinity of your 200,000 155mm stockpile.

probably easy to bunker segregate them from an explosive strike, perhaps less so for emp?

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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

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jedibeeftrix wrote: 14 Sep 2023, 08:40 wonder if stockpiles of e-fuze ammo will want to be distributed in future...

pondering how damaging it would be to a war effort if an emp went off in the vicinity of your 200,000 155mm stockpile.

probably easy to bunker segregate them from an explosive strike, perhaps less so for emp?
Any storage facility involving complex weapons will be a faraday cage anyway so EMP won't have an effect.

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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

Post by jedibeeftrix »

is mass storage of generic artillary shells deemed a complex weapon - from the PoV of the storage sophistication it is awarded?

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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

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Presumably the fuses could be stored in their own protected environment & wouldn't be attached to the shells until the point of firing.

A Faraday cage is pretty simple to build - you can make one at home out of pretty much any metal box, bubble wrap and some copper tape or even tinfoil - hopefully our ammunition storage is a little more substantial than that :)
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RunningStrong
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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

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jedibeeftrix wrote: 14 Sep 2023, 10:36 is mass storage of generic artillary shells deemed a complex weapon - from the PoV of the storage sophistication it is awarded?
Modern artillery is essentially three parts: Fuze, shell and charge.

The fuzes are typically only attached to the shell when the fire mission is known and intended nature (shell) and fuze settings are known. In the case of an autoloader fuzes will be attached to shells prior to loading the magazine.

In all instances, fuzes can be protected from EMP during deep storage, transportation and loading. The only window for EMP is the relatively short time between fitting fuze and firing on a towed system.
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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

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Hanwha. which is offering the K9A2 self-propelled artillery system for the British Army's Mobile Fires Platform (MFP) requirement, is offering to bring additional R&D and upgrade work to the UK if it wins the contest.
https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/land ... llery-bid/
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sol
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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

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First Archer systems are delivered to the British Army

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/british ... er-dsei23/
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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

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sol wrote: 15 Sep 2023, 13:15 First Archer systems are delivered to the British Army

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/british ... er-dsei23/
First time seeing Archer on Volvo chassis, it's bloody big! The muzzle brake seems quite far back from the front of the vehicle and the rear overhang is huge. I was quite surprised by it.

K9A2 also clearly a large vehicle.
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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

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