AW101 Merlin Helicopter (RN)

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.
Poiuytrewq
Senior Member
Posts: 3956
Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
United Kingdom

Re: AW101 Merlin Helicopter (RN)

Post by Poiuytrewq »

SW1 wrote: 26 May 2023, 20:10 That is not what the government currently requires. It is your wish list.
What does the government currently require?

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 5657
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: AW101 Merlin Helicopter (RN)

Post by SW1 »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 26 May 2023, 20:27
SW1 wrote: 26 May 2023, 20:10 That is not what the government currently requires. It is your wish list.
What does the government currently require?
A carrier strike group and support to the nuclear deterrent.

And national SF support

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5550
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: AW101 Merlin Helicopter (RN)

Post by Tempest414 »

As said many a time we need to buy 70 AW-149 or the like these need to have a folding rotor and be split 40 /30 between the Army and RAF. Next the armies Wildcats need to go to the Navy

We can then have 3 flights of 4 Merlin HC4's one for the CSG and one each for LRG/N&S these will be backed up as needed by the RAF AW-149's

With this the LRG's can have a mix of 4 x Merlin and 4 x Wildcat
These users liked the author Tempest414 for the post (total 4):
Little Jnew guyCraigLDahedd

Poiuytrewq
Senior Member
Posts: 3956
Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
United Kingdom

Re: AW101 Merlin Helicopter (RN)

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Tempest414 wrote: 27 May 2023, 07:57 ….the armies Wildcats need to go to the Navy
This would instantly solve the RN helicopter shortage and remove the “no need for more hangers as not enough helicopters” argument.
With this the LRG's can have a mix of 4 x Merlin and 4 x Wildcat
Perfect, that’s all that is required.

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5550
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: AW101 Merlin Helicopter (RN)

Post by Tempest414 »

If we went with 70 Aw-149's this could mean that the 4 Merlin's and 4 Wildcats of the LRG's could be backed up by Chinooks , AW-149's and Apache's as needed
These users liked the author Tempest414 for the post:
Poiuytrewq

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 5657
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: AW101 Merlin Helicopter (RN)

Post by SW1 »

Tempest414 wrote: 27 May 2023, 08:40 If we went with 70 Aw-149's this could mean that the 4 Merlin's and 4 Wildcats of the LRG's could be backed up by Chinooks , AW-149's and Apache's as needed
The services can’t crew or support the helicopters they currently have how’s adding another 70 going to improve things?

If your adding that many helicopters to these supposed LRGs it’s really just the carrier group.

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5550
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: AW101 Merlin Helicopter (RN)

Post by Tempest414 »

SW1 wrote: 27 May 2023, 09:13
Tempest414 wrote: 27 May 2023, 08:40 If we went with 70 Aw-149's this could mean that the 4 Merlin's and 4 Wildcats of the LRG's could be backed up by Chinooks , AW-149's and Apache's as needed
The services can’t crew or support the helicopters they currently have how’s adding another 70 going to improve things?

If your adding that many helicopters to these supposed LRGs it’s really just the carrier group.
Always with the negative waves Moriarty. Just think beautiful positive thoughts and those new helicopters crews and spares will be there baby

Remember it is this government that wants a global force and if that is what they want they have to pay for it

Also out of 70 aircraft 10 will be in deep maintenance 10 will be in the joint OCU leaving 2 units of 10 in the RAF and 3 unit of 10 in the Army

The 40 for the Army would replace Wildcat , Bell 212 & AS365 and the 30 in the RAF would replace Puma and Griffin

The armies Wildcats would go to the Navy with say 15 taken into service and the other 20 stored and rotated around to extend fleet life and allow proper upgrade plans so in total we would be adding say 15 to 20 helicopters not 70
These users liked the author Tempest414 for the post (total 2):
PoiuytrewqDahedd

Poiuytrewq
Senior Member
Posts: 3956
Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
United Kingdom

Re: AW101 Merlin Helicopter (RN)

Post by Poiuytrewq »

SW1 wrote: 27 May 2023, 09:13 If your adding that many helicopters to these supposed LRGs it’s really just the carrier group.
It depends what constitutes an LRG.

If LRG(S) is formed with a Bay, Argus and two T31’s then the group has theoretical capacity of 6x Merlin and 6x Wildcat. Adding Apache and Chinook is more of a challenge but with Argus it is possible if required.

Why would you need a full CSG to perform a tasking the LRG is designed to perform? Namely, to deploy a modest RM force to operate in the Littoral whilst utilising the T31’s for A2/AD and the embarked Wildcats for ASuW?

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 5657
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: AW101 Merlin Helicopter (RN)

Post by SW1 »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 27 May 2023, 11:13
SW1 wrote: 27 May 2023, 09:13 If your adding that many helicopters to these supposed LRGs it’s really just the carrier group.
It depends what constitutes an LRG.

If LRG(S) is formed with a Bay, Argus and two T31’s then the group has theoretical capacity of 6x Merlin and 6x Wildcat. Adding Apache and Chinook is more of a challenge but with Argus it is possible if required.

Why would you need a full CSG to perform a tasking the LRG is designed to perform? Namely, to deploy a modest RM force to operate in the Littoral whilst utilising the T31’s for A2/AD and the embarked Wildcats for ASuW?
What is the tasking the LRG is designed to preform?

If they are only talking about littoral work probably a couple of wildcat would suffice for boarding overwatch and surveillance. No need for merlin or chinook to embark

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5550
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: AW101 Merlin Helicopter (RN)

Post by Tempest414 »

I would say Littoral means up to 100k in land. I would also say that you need 4 Merlin's to move and support a re-enforced company or move HDAR kit plus 4 Wildcats to have 2 on QRA fitted with 10 LMM and 2 Sea Venom add to this 6 to 8 UAV's for OTH search and track

topman
Member
Posts: 771
Joined: 07 May 2015, 20:56
Tokelau

Re: AW101 Merlin Helicopter (RN)

Post by topman »

Tempest414 wrote: 27 May 2023, 11:01 Always with the negative waves Moriarty. Just think beautiful positive thoughts and those new helicopters crews and spares will be there baby

Remember it is this government that wants a global force and if that is what they want they have to pay for it
I don't think the government wants a global force nor the slightest intention of paying for a large increase in numbers.

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5550
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: AW101 Merlin Helicopter (RN)

Post by Tempest414 »

I would agree the this government has no intention of paying for anything

It would also be nice for this government to say what it really wants

Poiuytrewq
Senior Member
Posts: 3956
Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
United Kingdom

Re: AW101 Merlin Helicopter (RN)

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Moved across.

donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 5545
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Japan

Re: AW101 Merlin Helicopter (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Good documents to understand what has been done with improving Merlin HC4 capability with the test onboard HMS Albion. Looks reasonable, and promising. As stated in the last paragraph, the increased capability may impact also the ASW Merlin HM2.

Merlin is a large and expensive to operate asset. The testing (probably) does NOT affect the maintenance load, but simply improve the capability limit. So, its "merit vs operation-cost" balance gets better. "How better?" is important here.

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-l ... es-merlins
These users liked the author donald_of_tokyo for the post (total 2):
serge750Scimitar54

tomuk
Senior Member
Posts: 1409
Joined: 20 Dec 2017, 20:24
United Kingdom

Re: AW101 Merlin Helicopter (RN)

Post by tomuk »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 26 Jul 2023, 14:41 Good documents to understand what has been done with improving Merlin HC4 capability with the test onboard HMS Albion. Looks reasonable, and promising. As stated in the last paragraph, the increased capability may impact also the ASW Merlin HM2.

Merlin is a large and expensive to operate asset. The testing (probably) does NOT affect the maintenance load, but simply improve the capability limit. So, its "merit vs operation-cost" balance gets better. "How better?" is important here.

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-l ... es-merlins
I'm not so impressed this seems to me to be trials and clearances work that should have been done for HC4 prior to IOC or FOC. Probably delayed or cancelled due to earlier budget pressure and now trumpeted as some sort of innovation.
These users liked the author tomuk for the post:
SW1

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 5657
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: AW101 Merlin Helicopter (RN)

Post by SW1 »

tomuk wrote: 26 Jul 2023, 17:18
donald_of_tokyo wrote: 26 Jul 2023, 14:41 Good documents to understand what has been done with improving Merlin HC4 capability with the test onboard HMS Albion. Looks reasonable, and promising. As stated in the last paragraph, the increased capability may impact also the ASW Merlin HM2.

Merlin is a large and expensive to operate asset. The testing (probably) does NOT affect the maintenance load, but simply improve the capability limit. So, its "merit vs operation-cost" balance gets better. "How better?" is important here.

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-l ... es-merlins
I'm not so impressed this seems to me to be trials and clearances work that should have been done for HC4 prior to IOC or FOC. Probably delayed or cancelled due to earlier budget pressure and now trumpeted as some sort of innovation.
Quite specific to artic operations it would seem, given the weight added for the maritime conversion would be interested to see what benefit this gives is in lift the tropics along west Africa and Middle East summer.

Will it be able to lift a Viking for example in the artic.

Scimitar54
Senior Member
Posts: 1701
Joined: 13 Jul 2015, 05:10
United Kingdom

Re: AW101 Merlin Helicopter (RN)

Post by Scimitar54 »

Whatever the background, this does represent a potential 50% increase in previous (Merlin) RM airlift capacity, or greater redundancy, or range. “Just what the (FCF) doctor would have prescribed”. :mrgreen:

User avatar
Ian Hall
Member
Posts: 490
Joined: 18 Jun 2023, 14:55
United Kingdom

Re: AW101 Merlin Helicopter (RN)

Post by Ian Hall »

BZ to the UK's flight test capability.

These users liked the author Ian Hall for the post:
wargame_insomniac

bobp
Senior Member
Posts: 2684
Joined: 06 May 2015, 07:52
United Kingdom

Re: AW101 Merlin Helicopter (RN)

Post by bobp »

Great but without an increase in numbers they will be flogged to death sooner.

User avatar
Ian Hall
Member
Posts: 490
Joined: 18 Jun 2023, 14:55
United Kingdom

Re: AW101 Merlin Helicopter (RN)

Post by Ian Hall »

bobp wrote: 26 Jul 2023, 19:03 Great but without an increase in numbers they will be flogged to death sooner.
For this to happen the total authorised annual flying hours for the MK4 fleet would need to be increased, and funded. I don't believe the article says this. Rather it's talking about increasing the maximum payload/ range/ endurance when flown from ship to give better operational effectiveness and flexibility, not an AFH increase.
These users liked the author Ian Hall for the post:
bobp

mr.fred
Senior Member
Posts: 1468
Joined: 06 May 2015, 22:53
United Kingdom

Re: AW101 Merlin Helicopter (RN)

Post by mr.fred »

bobp wrote: 26 Jul 2023, 19:03 Great but without an increase in numbers they will be flogged to death sooner.
Doesn’t it mean that you need fewer aircraft, on average, to fulfil any given task, so you actually put less time on your fleet as a whole?
These users liked the author mr.fred for the post:
donald_of_tokyo

bobp
Senior Member
Posts: 2684
Joined: 06 May 2015, 07:52
United Kingdom

Re: AW101 Merlin Helicopter (RN)

Post by bobp »

Increasing payload and fuel plus increasing flight hours means more downtime for inspections and servicing.
Admittedly a good thing for ship to shore operations.
I worry about lack of numbers.

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5550
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: AW101 Merlin Helicopter (RN)

Post by Tempest414 »

bobp wrote: 26 Jul 2023, 23:41 Increasing payload and fuel plus increasing flight hours means more downtime for inspections and servicing.
Admittedly a good thing for ship to shore operations.
I worry about lack of numbers.
We also have to remember that black box that records airframe life this not just flying hours but stress as well so as an idea in Afgan 1 flight hour in the air was about 1.5 on the clock due to hot and high conditions putting extra stress on the airframe
These users liked the author Tempest414 for the post:
bobp

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5550
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: AW101 Merlin Helicopter (RN)

Post by Tempest414 »

topman wrote: 27 May 2023, 16:03
Tempest414 wrote: 27 May 2023, 11:01 Always with the negative waves Moriarty. Just think beautiful positive thoughts and those new helicopters crews and spares will be there baby

Remember it is this government that wants a global force and if that is what they want they have to pay for it
I don't think the government wants a global force nor the slightest intention of paying for a large increase in numbers.
How wrong this was Ah turns out the government did want a Global force however I will say you were right in that they have no intention of paying for it

Scimitar54
Senior Member
Posts: 1701
Joined: 13 Jul 2015, 05:10
United Kingdom

Re: AW101 Merlin Helicopter (RN)

Post by Scimitar54 »

When will governments realise that if they fail to adequately provide for their primary responsibility, they will inevitably deserve NOT to be re-elected.

Post Reply