Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

What will be the result of the 'Lighter Frigate' programme?

Programme cancelled, RN down to 14 escorts
52
10%
Programme cancelled & replaced with GP T26
14
3%
A number of heavy OPVs spun as "frigates"
127
25%
An LCS-like modular ship
22
4%
A modernised Type 23
24
5%
A Type 26-lite
69
14%
Less than 5 hulls
22
4%
5 hulls
70
14%
More than 5 hulls
101
20%
 
Total votes: 501

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

tomuk wrote: 21 May 2023, 17:39
Ron5 wrote: 21 May 2023, 14:41 Wouldn't surprise me that the investigation phase determined that the Mk 41's were not the greatest addition. The T31's have a very minimal sensor set which doesn't really help.
Are you talking about a lack of sonar or something else?
Bargain bin radar, couple of eo directors, minimal ESM, no sonar, limited comms kit. That's a lot of how they got the price so low.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by RunningStrong »

Ron5 wrote: 22 May 2023, 13:47
tomuk wrote: 21 May 2023, 17:39
Ron5 wrote: 21 May 2023, 14:41 Wouldn't surprise me that the investigation phase determined that the Mk 41's were not the greatest addition. The T31's have a very minimal sensor set which doesn't really help.
Are you talking about a lack of sonar or something else?
Bargain bin radar, couple of eo directors, minimal ESM, no sonar, limited comms kit. That's a lot of how they got the price so low.
If T31 is used as a fleet-enabled bomb-truck then it can take handoff targets from other platforms/ISTAR assets and provide the weaponry. That only makes sense if it gets the full compliment of Mk41 modules.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

And in Context Type 26 Batch 2 has hand me down Radar , Sonar , CAMM system , 30mm , Phalanx , to get the price down to 840 million

Why is NS110 a bargin bin radar?
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

Ron5 wrote: 22 May 2023, 13:47
tomuk wrote: 21 May 2023, 17:39
Ron5 wrote: 21 May 2023, 14:41 Wouldn't surprise me that the investigation phase determined that the Mk 41's were not the greatest addition. The T31's have a very minimal sensor set which doesn't really help.
Are you talking about a lack of sonar or something else?
Bargain bin radar, couple of eo directors, minimal ESM, no sonar, limited comms kit. That's a lot of how they got the price so low.
It is getting the similar fit Vigile ESM the Type 45 and 23 has and it will have normal comms including satcom. Can you explain how this is minimal or limited?
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by NickC »

tomuk wrote: 22 May 2023, 16:49 It is getting the similar fit Vigile ESM the Type 45 and 23 has and it will have normal comms including satcom. Can you explain how this is minimal or limited?
MoD/Navy has its new £500 million Maritime Electronic Warfare Programme (MEWP) and assume will be funded as GFE for the surface fleet in the future, the systems procured via MEWP will be outfitted across the fleet, QNEZ, T45, T26 and T31 over the next 13 years.

The Maritime Electronic Warfare System Integrated Capability (MEWSIC), to be implemented in three increments. Increment-1, a £100 million contract won by the Babcock, Elbit Systems and QinetiQ partnership in 2021 replacing the current Maritime Electronic Warfare Surveillance System (MEWSS) and Defensive Aids Suite/Surface Ship (DASSS) electronic warfare and soft-kill capabilities.
Babcock will be the programme’s technical authority, overall project management and responsible for in-service support and training. Elbit will design, build and deliver the RESM hardware and C2 based on their eM-e naval ESM and EW system.

Naval News reported Increment-1a as the soft kill and countermeasures kit will be Safran launchers and their new NGDS Config D 130 mm RF and IR decoys and expect the first to be implemented.

Details on the future MEWSIC Increments 2 & 3 vague as yet, though assume ELINT will be continue to be provided by fitting US kit, as the AN/SSQ-130(V) Shipboard Signals Exploitation Equipment (SSEE) Increment F as installed on T45's as Shaman.

https://www.armadainternational.com/202 ... c-warfare/

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Tempest414 wrote: 22 May 2023, 16:17 And in Context Type 26 Batch 2 has hand me down Radar , Sonar , CAMM system , 30mm , Phalanx , to get the price down to 840 million

Why is NS110 a bargin bin radar?
I fear you are confusing effectiveness and "newness".

As for NS110, even the Thales guy said they wanted to upgrade if budget allowed it.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

tomuk wrote: 22 May 2023, 16:49
Ron5 wrote: 22 May 2023, 13:47
tomuk wrote: 21 May 2023, 17:39
Ron5 wrote: 21 May 2023, 14:41 Wouldn't surprise me that the investigation phase determined that the Mk 41's were not the greatest addition. The T31's have a very minimal sensor set which doesn't really help.
Are you talking about a lack of sonar or something else?
Bargain bin radar, couple of eo directors, minimal ESM, no sonar, limited comms kit. That's a lot of how they got the price so low.
It is getting the similar fit Vigile ESM the Type 45 and 23 has and it will have normal comms including satcom. Can you explain how this is minimal or limited?
Easy: compare T26 fit with T31's.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Look at the Arrowhead 140 model in the back of the guy (talking about submarine something).

- a 57mm gun in A-position.
- a VLS in the B-position (may be Mk.41?, may be short version)
- smaller boat bay/alcove aft
- larger boat alcove forward is now changed into a mission bay, like those of T26.
- in place, there is no VLS in the middle.

Note that, UK RN T31's dual boat alcove is for 2x 9.5 m max boats.
Polish T31 design has 1x 12 m class and 1x 7.5m class ones (I guess).
This model looks like enhanced version of the latter.

Anyway, interesting model....

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Jensy »

Must have posted at the same time on the escort thread, as you did here Donald-san!

Here's a higher resolution image. Would very much like to see a 3/4 view from the other side.

Image

Looks like there's something different about the 57mm gun barrel?

Also interesting to see Babcock have joined Twitter after avoiding it for a decade plus.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

Ron5 wrote: 23 May 2023, 13:27
tomuk wrote: 22 May 2023, 16:49
Ron5 wrote: 22 May 2023, 13:47
tomuk wrote: 21 May 2023, 17:39
Ron5 wrote: 21 May 2023, 14:41 Wouldn't surprise me that the investigation phase determined that the Mk 41's were not the greatest addition. The T31's have a very minimal sensor set which doesn't really help.
Are you talking about a lack of sonar or something else?
Bargain bin radar, couple of eo directors, minimal ESM, no sonar, limited comms kit. That's a lot of how they got the price so low.
It is getting the similar fit Vigile ESM the Type 45 and 23 has and it will have normal comms including satcom. Can you explain how this is minimal or limited?
Easy: compare T26 fit with T31's.
Compare what? One is dedicated ASW frigate, purported to be the best in the world, the other is a GP frigate. The it will be different due to the different requirements.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Jensy wrote: 23 May 2023, 17:24 Must have posted at the same time on the escort thread, as you did here Donald-san!

Here's a higher resolution image. Would very much like to see a 3/4 view from the other side.

Image

Looks like there's something different about the 57mm gun barrel?

Also interesting to see Babcock have joined Twitter after avoiding it for a decade plus.
This is the old model with a set of replacement parts (to be seen in the background) that interested folks can play games by substituting various items. Means zilch.

Scruffy bugger in the video. Someone needs to tell him to go get a shave.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

tomuk wrote: 24 May 2023, 00:24
Ron5 wrote: 23 May 2023, 13:27
tomuk wrote: 22 May 2023, 16:49
Ron5 wrote: 22 May 2023, 13:47
tomuk wrote: 21 May 2023, 17:39
Ron5 wrote: 21 May 2023, 14:41 Wouldn't surprise me that the investigation phase determined that the Mk 41's were not the greatest addition. The T31's have a very minimal sensor set which doesn't really help.
Are you talking about a lack of sonar or something else?
Bargain bin radar, couple of eo directors, minimal ESM, no sonar, limited comms kit. That's a lot of how they got the price so low.
It is getting the similar fit Vigile ESM the Type 45 and 23 has and it will have normal comms including satcom. Can you explain how this is minimal or limited?
Easy: compare T26 fit with T31's.
Compare what? One is dedicated ASW frigate, purported to be the best in the world, the other is a GP frigate. The it will be different due to the different requirements.
Better watch out for whiplash after backpedaling so fast :D

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

Ron5 wrote: 24 May 2023, 13:20
tomuk wrote: 24 May 2023, 00:24
Ron5 wrote: 23 May 2023, 13:27
tomuk wrote: 22 May 2023, 16:49
Ron5 wrote: 22 May 2023, 13:47
tomuk wrote: 21 May 2023, 17:39
Ron5 wrote: 21 May 2023, 14:41 Wouldn't surprise me that the investigation phase determined that the Mk 41's were not the greatest addition. The T31's have a very minimal sensor set which doesn't really help.
Are you talking about a lack of sonar or something else?
Bargain bin radar, couple of eo directors, minimal ESM, no sonar, limited comms kit. That's a lot of how they got the price so low.
It is getting the similar fit Vigile ESM the Type 45 and 23 has and it will have normal comms including satcom. Can you explain how this is minimal or limited?
Easy: compare T26 fit with T31's.
Compare what? One is dedicated ASW frigate, purported to be the best in the world, the other is a GP frigate. The it will be different due to the different requirements.
Better watch out for whiplash after backpedaling so fast :D
Once again Ron what are you on about? It is very easy. What parts of T31s sensor set are very minimal as you suggested?
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Not hard to identify the antennae and dishes on the DE&S/Babcock CGI to see they're a pretty skimpy lot. Same exercise on the T26 images reveals a much richer set.

Then look at the published Constellation equipment.

Comms & ESM can be very expensive. Easy place to save money with little visible evidence for the great unwashed. Constabulary & flag waving don't need much. You get what you paid for.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

Ron5 wrote: 25 May 2023, 13:38 Not hard to identify the antennae and dishes on the DE&S/Babcock CGI to see they're a pretty skimpy lot. Same exercise on the T26 images reveals a much richer set.

Then look at the published Constellation equipment.

Comms & ESM can be very expensive. Easy place to save money with little visible evidence for the great unwashed. Constabulary & flag waving don't need much. You get what you paid for.
So you haven't really got any hard facts just supposition and generalities from looking at some CGIs.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Jensy »

Maybe the first Type 31 for New Zealand? :D


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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Jensy »

Ron5 wrote: 24 May 2023, 13:17 This is the old model with a set of replacement parts (to be seen in the background) that interested folks can play games by substituting various items. Means zilch.

Scruffy bugger in the video. Someone needs to tell him to go get a shave.
Come now Ron. What naval enthusiast doesn't enjoy a large scale concept ship model? Especially with transparent bits to look through.

Also, I didn't think the 'b' turret position could take what are possibly strike length MK.41 cells. If the will was there, you could get more firepower on the design than any current escort in Western Europe.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Jensy wrote: 25 May 2023, 21:21 If the will was there, you could get more firepower on the design than any current escort in Western Europe.
Exactly but how much firepower does the T31 actually need?

IMO the T31 needs to match the Constellation class both offensively and defensively. Effectively a half price global combat ship with a reduced ASW capability compared with the T26 but still capable of ASW.

The era of underarmed RN escorts needs to end as the world is just getting too dangerous and any peace dividend is ancient history now.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 25 May 2023, 21:52
Jensy wrote: 25 May 2023, 21:21 If the will was there, you could get more firepower on the design than any current escort in Western Europe.
Exactly but how much firepower does the T31 actually need?

IMO the T31 needs to match the Constellation class both offensively and defensively. Effectively a half price global combat ship with a reduced ASW capability compared with the T26 but still capable of ASW.

The era of underarmed RN escorts needs to end as the world is just getting too dangerous and any peace dividend is ancient history now.
If we could get type 31 to a place where it had 32 Mk-41 cells and 8 NSM the RN would have pulled off a blinder. Yes we could then go on to add a CAPTAS-4 and more NSM if the money is there

What we also have to remember is the Constellation class are in the same league as Type 26 both in cost and kit
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by NickC »

Tempest414 wrote: 26 May 2023, 08:44 What we also have to remember is the Constellation class are in the same league as Type 26 both in cost and kit
Think to say T26 in same league as Constellation is an exageration if you include its AAW capabilities
Constellation has the larger and much more powerful and modern SPY-6(V)3 GaN radar and the CEC, plus SM-2 Blk IIIC, ESSM Blk 2 and RAM AA missiles.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

NickC wrote: 26 May 2023, 13:09
Tempest414 wrote: 26 May 2023, 08:44 What we also have to remember is the Constellation class are in the same league as Type 26 both in cost and kit
Think to say T26 in same league as Constellation is an exageration if you include its AAW capabilities
Constellation has the larger and much more powerful and modern SPY-6(V)3 GaN radar and the CEC, plus SM-2 Blk IIIC, ESSM Blk 2 and RAM AA missiles.
But then the Constellation is not in the same class as Type 26 in ASW but both are in the same class when it comes to cost and kit per task

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by SW1 »

Tempest414 wrote: 26 May 2023, 15:06
NickC wrote: 26 May 2023, 13:09
Tempest414 wrote: 26 May 2023, 08:44 What we also have to remember is the Constellation class are in the same league as Type 26 both in cost and kit
Think to say T26 in same league as Constellation is an exageration if you include its AAW capabilities
Constellation has the larger and much more powerful and modern SPY-6(V)3 GaN radar and the CEC, plus SM-2 Blk IIIC, ESSM Blk 2 and RAM AA missiles.
But then the Constellation is not in the same class as Type 26 in ASW but both are in the same class when it comes to cost and kit per task
How do we know it isn’t? similar sonars and I assume computer data and processors in the background, noise suppression ect. It will be the USN principal surface anti submarine platform I’m sure they are just as competent.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

SW1 wrote: 26 May 2023, 15:35
Tempest414 wrote: 26 May 2023, 15:06
NickC wrote: 26 May 2023, 13:09
Tempest414 wrote: 26 May 2023, 08:44 What we also have to remember is the Constellation class are in the same league as Type 26 both in cost and kit
Think to say T26 in same league as Constellation is an exageration if you include its AAW capabilities
Constellation has the larger and much more powerful and modern SPY-6(V)3 GaN radar and the CEC, plus SM-2 Blk IIIC, ESSM Blk 2 and RAM AA missiles.
But then the Constellation is not in the same class as Type 26 in ASW but both are in the same class when it comes to cost and kit per task
How do we know it isn’t? similar sonars and I assume computer data and processors in the background, noise suppression ect. It will be the USN principal surface anti submarine platform I’m sure they are just as competent.
It may well have but it is just part of the story there are many more factors as you well know and we can get bogged down in the what and what not's the main point was that the Type 26 is more aligned with the Constellation class than the Type 31

But as said if Type 31 comes on line with 32 Mk-41 cells and 8 NSM the RN would have pull off a blinder and if it then gets a CAPTAS-4 sonar it is going to be a good global escort for half the price of a Constellation and 2/5's the price of a T-26
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Tempest414 wrote: 26 May 2023, 08:44 If we could get type 31 to a place where it had 32 Mk-41 cells and 8 NSM the RN would have pulled off a blinder. Yes we could then go on to add a CAPTAS-4 and more NSM if the money is there
Agreed.

The question is how to do it most efficiently without blowing the budget so that a second, follow-on batch can be ordered. The target must be at least eight hulls and they must happen.

IMO RN should prioritise the T31 to get the escorts back up to full strength again. Maintain the current Amphibs and hold on to as many of the Auxiliaries as possible with a HADR justification if necessary.

The T31 need not get any more complicated at this stage apart from adding the Mk41 cells and 24 or 32 CAMM in the B position. Maintain the 57mm in the A position and relocate the 2x 40mm for port/starboard arcs. Maintain space for 16x NSM in canisters but only fit 8x under normal circumstances. Utilise a TAS via PODs if required. As Jensy has stated, that would give RN one of the most capable ASuW Frigates in Europe.

How much would this actually increase the cost of a T31?

The only additional costs are moving the CAMM and 40mm. The PODs program is a separate budget and the Mk41 cells are already announced.

Everyone needs to take a breath and do this properly now, RN have almost cracked it.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by SW1 »

Not matter if mk41 or pods or whatever else is added at a later date the RN should order a second second batch of 5 and modify tweak or keep the original config from build and replace the variety of smaller vessels type 23 and patrol
ship in the process.

It needs to ensure there is training pipelines running for sonar operators and the like before it adds equipment to the ships.

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