Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

[mrclark303]

I really now sure how people are judging size and scale from the public rendering shown so far or what they mean by big!

The tornado f3 had roughly the same wingspan and length as a f22, f22 has a heavier MTOW but tornado is commented on as small and f22 is big.

Like wise f35 is classed as small but has up to 70k lbs MTOW which pretty much f14 tomcat/f18 e weight which was a big aircraft but in a smaller overall physical aircraft size.

Mirage 2000 was comparable to the f16 not the twin engine f15.

So it will interesting to know what length, span and weight people are basing there judgements on small and big on. Modern materials will lower structural weight and allow increased max weight for a given size compared to older aircraft.

My take, based on the current rendering (cockpit size) and based on the general requirements of both Japan and the UK, is that Tempest will be F22 sized.

I expect it therefore to be approximately 30/ 50% bigger than Thypoon.

I expect the Franco, German, Spanish effort to be approx Thypoon sized, so bigger than Rafael.

Aircraft carrier capability will keep a lid on its size.

One comment, the stretched Tornado F3 was actually the size the UK originally envisioned for MRCA, far closer to the starting 'datum' point, the UKVGA.

Had a true multirole F4 class aircraft like UKVGA been pursued, then we may well have sold double the number.

German intransigence ensured Tornado was a sharply focused European Central front strike aircraft, of the absolute minimum size necessary.

The RAF had to fight it's corner hard to ensure Thypoon was the size it ended up being, the Germans fought hard make a smaller machine.

[SW1]

I really now sure how people are judging size and scale from the public rendering shown so far or what they mean by big!

The tornado f3 had roughly the same wingspan and length as a f22, f22 has a heavier MTOW but tornado is commented on as small and f22 is big.

Like wise f35 is classed as small but has up to 70k lbs MTOW which pretty much f14 tomcat/f18 e weight which was a big aircraft but in a smaller overall physical aircraft size.

Mirage 2000 was comparable to the f16 not the twin engine f15.

So it will interesting to know what length, span and weight people are basing there judgements on small and big on. Modern materials will lower structural weight and allow increased max weight for a given size compared to older aircraft.

My take, based on the current rendering (cockpit size) and based on the general requirements of both Japan and the UK, is that Tempest will be F22 sized.

I expect it therefore to be approximately 30/ 50% bigger than Thypoon.

I expect the Franco, German, Spanish effort to be approx Thypoon sized, so bigger than Rafael.

Aircraft carrier capability will keep a lid on its size.

One comment, the stretched Tornado F3 was actually the size the UK originally envisioned for MRCA, far closer to the starting 'datum' point, the UKVGA.

Had a true multirole F4 class aircraft like UKVGA been pursued, then we may well have sold double the number.

German intransigence ensured Tornado was a sharply focused European Central front strike aircraft, of the absolute minimum size necessary.

The RAF had to fight it's corner hard to ensure Thypoon was the size it ended up being, the Germans fought hard make a smaller machine.

The Japanese requirement if for a f2 replacement which is basically a f16. The lengthened fuselage on the tornado f3 was to improve transonic accelerating and allow the conformal carriage of 4 Skyflash. I doubt there would have been any increase in sales numbers the seller was f16 sized aircraft if you wanted more sales it would have pushed the design smaller not bigger. F16 was pushed very strongly for the RAF too.

Interesting interpretation on the aircraft carrier dictating size. The F18 superhornet is the same physical size as the f22. Infact if you stretched the f35c fuselage the same amount as we stretched the tornado f3 the f35c would be pretty much the same physical size as an f22.

50% bigger than typhoon isn’t happening I can guarantee you that.

[Dobbo]

I’d have thought a large size would be conducive to a large internal payload for fuel (I imagine unrefueled range is a major requirement) and weapons…

[mrclark303]

I really now sure how people are judging size and scale from the public rendering shown so far or what they mean by big!

The tornado f3 had roughly the same wingspan and length as a f22, f22 has a heavier MTOW but tornado is commented on as small and f22 is big.

Like wise f35 is classed as small but has up to 70k lbs MTOW which pretty much f14 tomcat/f18 e weight which was a big aircraft but in a smaller overall physical aircraft size.

Mirage 2000 was comparable to the f16 not the twin engine f15.

So it will interesting to know what length, span and weight people are basing there judgements on small and big on. Modern materials will lower structural weight and allow increased max weight for a given size compared to older aircraft.

My take, based on the current rendering (cockpit size) and based on the general requirements of both Japan and the UK, is that Tempest will be F22 sized.

I expect it therefore to be approximately 30/ 50% bigger than Thypoon.

I expect the Franco, German, Spanish effort to be approx Thypoon sized, so bigger than Rafael.

Aircraft carrier capability will keep a lid on its size.

One comment, the stretched Tornado F3 was actually the size the UK originally envisioned for MRCA, far closer to the starting 'datum' point, the UKVGA.

Had a true multirole F4 class aircraft like UKVGA been pursued, then we may well have sold double the number.

German intransigence ensured Tornado was a sharply focused European Central front strike aircraft, of the absolute minimum size necessary.

The RAF had to fight it's corner hard to ensure Thypoon was the size it ended up being, the Germans fought hard make a smaller machine.

The Japanese requirement if for a f2 replacement which is basically a f16. The lengthened fuselage on the tornado f3 was to improve transonic accelerating and allow the conformal carriage of 4 Skyflash. I doubt there would have been any increase in sales numbers the seller was f16 sized aircraft if you wanted more sales it would have pushed the design smaller not bigger. F16 was pushed very strongly for the RAF too.

Interesting interpretation on the aircraft carrier dictating size. The F18 superhornet is the same physical size as the f22. Infact if you stretched the f35c fuselage the same amount as we stretched the tornado f3 the f35c would be pretty much the same physical size as an f22.

50% bigger than typhoon isn’t happening I can guarantee you that.

We will see fairly shortly, I am equally convinced the other way SW1.

I think the mistake you are making here ( in my opinion) is you are assuming a like for like replacement with the F2, possibly also taking Japan's technology demonstrator into account, where size didn't really matter.

The situation in the Indo Pacific has radically altered in the last 30 years, the Chinese threat is no longer localised, it's absolutely enoumous and all encompassing.

With that in mind, Japan needs a large multi role machine with ample internal volume for weapons and fuel, capable of penetrating and defeating advanced airborne threats and sophisticated integrated shipborne and ground based air defence systems.

[SD67]

Have the Japanese ever said that GCAP is being developed exclusively to replace F2 ? They also have a couple of hundred F15s that are getting on to 40 years old, and there is the withdrawal of USAF F15s from Okinawa that will need to be covered in some way. GCAP is alot of money to spend on a pure F2 replacement.

In terms of size, simple me thinks in terms of wingspan and empty weight. F22 and F15 are both around 13 metres and 20,000kg. Typhoon is 11 metres and 12,000 kg. F18C is pretty much the same as Typhoon. I'd wager GCAP will be in the F22/F15 class. What that specifically means once you factor in new materials etc who knows, looking forward to finding out

[Timmymagic]

Have the Japanese ever said that GCAP is being developed exclusively to replace F2 ? They also have a couple of hundred F15s that are getting on to 40 years old, and there is the withdrawal of USAF F15s from Okinawa that will need to be covered in some way. GCAP is alot of money to spend on a pure F2 replacement.

In terms of size, simple me thinks in terms of wingspan and empty weight. F22 and F15 are both around 13 metres and 20,000kg. Typhoon is 11 metres and 12,000 kg. F18C is pretty much the same as Typhoon. I'd wager GCAP will be in the F22/F15 class. What that specifically means once you factor in new materials etc who knows, looking forward to finding out

Indeed. GCAP will replace everything escept F-35 for Japan. That means F-15 and F-2.

[inch]

Or it may be that the French don’t really want or need an F22 class platform. They’re not a frontline air defence state, they’re not an island (or quasi Island like Italy ). Mirage 2000 wasn’t an F15 class platform. Mirage 3 was alot smaller than an F4.

IMHO the programs are looking nicely complementary.

One question tho - can SNECMA develop a 6th gen engine from a standing start? It’d be funny if in 5 years time they come knocking on RRs door for technical assistance

Think the french can build engines and know how ,think they build alot with Americans on passenger planes I seem to remember from somewhere? Let me know if I got that wrong tho

[SW1]

I really now sure how people are judging size and scale from the public rendering shown so far or what they mean by big!

The tornado f3 had roughly the same wingspan and length as a f22, f22 has a heavier MTOW but tornado is commented on as small and f22 is big.

Like wise f35 is classed as small but has up to 70k lbs MTOW which pretty much f14 tomcat/f18 e weight which was a big aircraft but in a smaller overall physical aircraft size.

Mirage 2000 was comparable to the f16 not the twin engine f15.

So it will interesting to know what length, span and weight people are basing there judgements on small and big on. Modern materials will lower structural weight and allow increased max weight for a given size compared to older aircraft.

My take, based on the current rendering (cockpit size) and based on the general requirements of both Japan and the UK, is that Tempest will be F22 sized.

I expect it therefore to be approximately 30/ 50% bigger than Thypoon.

I expect the Franco, German, Spanish effort to be approx Thypoon sized, so bigger than Rafael.

Aircraft carrier capability will keep a lid on its size.

One comment, the stretched Tornado F3 was actually the size the UK originally envisioned for MRCA, far closer to the starting 'datum' point, the UKVGA.

Had a true multirole F4 class aircraft like UKVGA been pursued, then we may well have sold double the number.

German intransigence ensured Tornado was a sharply focused European Central front strike aircraft, of the absolute minimum size necessary.

The RAF had to fight it's corner hard to ensure Thypoon was the size it ended up being, the Germans fought hard make a smaller machine.

The Japanese requirement if for a f2 replacement which is basically a f16. The lengthened fuselage on the tornado f3 was to improve transonic accelerating and allow the conformal carriage of 4 Skyflash. I doubt there would have been any increase in sales numbers the seller was f16 sized aircraft if you wanted more sales it would have pushed the design smaller not bigger. F16 was pushed very strongly for the RAF too.

Interesting interpretation on the aircraft carrier dictating size. The F18 superhornet is the same physical size as the f22. Infact if you stretched the f35c fuselage the same amount as we stretched the tornado f3 the f35c would be pretty much the same physical size as an f22.

50% bigger than typhoon isn’t happening I can guarantee you that.

We will see fairly shortly, I am equally convinced the other way SW1.

I think the mistake you are making here ( in my opinion) is you are assuming a like for like replacement with the F2, possibly also taking Japan's technology demonstrator into account, where size didn't really matter.

The situation in the Indo Pacific has radically altered in the last 30 years, the Chinese threat is no longer localised, it's absolutely enoumous and all encompassing.

With that in mind, Japan needs a large multi role machine with ample internal volume for weapons and fuel, capable of penetrating and defeating advanced airborne threats and sophisticated integrated shipborne and ground based air defence systems.

The point I’m making is internal fuel volumes for f35 and f22 are pretty much the same. The wing spans of f35c and f22 are pretty much the same. They are optimised for different flight regimes and missions which dictates their length relative to wingspan and wing area. F35 can carry internal stores larger than f22.

Team Tempest are working towards initial engineering release this summer for the demonstrator test program so you may hear more at RIAT.

[TheLoneRanger]

Team Tempest are working towards initial engineering release this summer for the demonstrator test program so you may hear more at RIAT.

What is an "initial engineering release?". A ground prototype? Or just specifications ?

[SW1]

Team Tempest are working towards initial engineering release this summer for the demonstrator test program so you may hear more at RIAT.

What is an "initial engineering release?". A ground prototype? Or just specifications ?

It would be the first releases of the long leads for both the ground test and flying demonstrator.

[TheLoneRanger]

Team Tempest are working towards initial engineering release this summer for the demonstrator test program so you may hear more at RIAT.

What is an "initial engineering release?". A ground prototype? Or just specifications ?

It would be the first releases of the long leads for both the ground test and flying demonstrator.

interesting - a bit like the EAP platform was for the Typhoon - if so - that is v.v.v. significant progress - esp in the area of engines/fbws? (unless i am still not understanding what you are saying! lol ! ).

[mrclark303]

Team Tempest are working towards initial engineering release this summer for the demonstrator test program so you may hear more at RIAT.

What is an "initial engineering release?". A ground prototype? Or just specifications ?

It would be the first releases of the long leads for both the ground test and flying demonstrator.

interesting - a bit like the EAP platform was for the Typhoon - if so - that is v.v.v. significant progress - esp in the area of engines/fbws? (unless i am still not understanding what you are saying! lol ! ).

With regards to our current size debate, it will give us the size and settle the discussion.

I would expect the demonstrator to be a lot closer to the production machine than EAP was to Thypoon.

The latest rendering appears to be a fusion of Tempest and the original proposed Japanese machine.

Exciting times ...

[SW1]

I’ll plug for something similar in size to a tornado.

[motiv]

Quick question for you guys. There's been a few new pictures being released, like this one in the guardian

Is there an official resource for these newer ones?

[Jensy]

Quick question for you guys. There's been a few new pictures being released, like this one in the guardian

Is there an official resource for these newer ones?

So that series of CGI images came out around the time that the GCAP agreement was signed last year.

Along similar lines, but with more detail, was this model revealed at DSEI Japan last month:



https://www.navalnews.com/event-news/ds ... ter-stage/

It's important to remember though that these are merely concepts. They don't necessarily reflect the demonstrator that will eventually be built, much less does that demonstrator precisely reflect whatever aircraft that finally enters service.

Early concepts that led to Typhoon had differently placed intakes, canards and even a V-tail. Tornado had a single engined variant that was being pushed hard by the Germans.

I'd confidentially speculate that we're going to see a medium-large, low-observable, twin-engined design with a single seat. Beyond that I wouldn't want to bet on anything too specific.

[matt00773]

Lots of additional information about the GCAP display at DSEI Japan 2023 in this YouTube video below:



Video presentation in the background at the beginning is interesting. Also has interview with Ben Wallace at the approx. 21:00 point.

From the video @ 3:40 mark:

Untitled.jpg

Untitled2.jpg

Untitled3.jpg

From the video @ 57:30:

Untitled4.jpg

[SD67]

Looks real, looks good.

They should call it the Mitsubishi Hi o haku

[SD67]

Lots of additional information about the GCAP display at DSEI Japan 2023 in this YouTube video below:



Video presentation in the background at the beginning is interesting. Also has interview with Ben Wallace at the approx. 21:00 point.

From the video @ 3:40 mark:

Untitled.jpg

Untitled2.jpg

Untitled3.jpg

The guy on our right - judging by the insignia - a Saudi, with alot of medals, and a BAE lanyard

[inch]

Just wish it had English translation lol,but hey looks good but still a 5th gen looking design like the Turkish/ south Korean ,and FCAS 6th design etc to my unknowledgeable eyes lol, suppose it's down too what's onboard tech GCAP that's making it 6th gen ? ,Think I've got in my brain the 6th gen designs from America and China without vertical tails and everything else with vertical tails just looking 5th too me , don't worry I'll get over it ,let's just hope it's good enough to beat the opponents when the latest iterations meet over the oceans somewhere and that will be good enough I quess

[SD67]

click settings in youtube and you can get auto translate

random thought - name the F1 car or performance motorbike that's not British Italian or Japanese

[Spitfire9]

click settings in youtube and you can get auto translate

random thought - name the F1 car or performance motorbike that's not British Italian or Japanese

Matra from way back driven by Jackie Stewart?

[SD67]

Good one
And Ligier for a few years with massive state subsidies
BMWS1000

[inch]

I've got an idea for 6th gen vertical tail / tailless designs ,both have merits for different flight characteristics stealth tradeoffs ,how about having a twin tails that lay flat for stealth in tail shaped recessed areas on top of main wings but lift up say 30degrees for max manoeuvrability ,so best of both worlds,it's a plan ,I'm going to sell the idea and make millions lol

[motiv]

Just wish it had English translation lol,but hey looks good but still a 5th gen looking design like the Turkish/ south Korean ,and FCAS 6th design etc to my unknowledgeable eyes lol, suppose it's down too what's onboard tech GCAP that's making it 6th gen ? ,Think I've got in my brain the 6th gen designs from America and China without vertical tails and everything else with vertical tails just looking 5th too me , don't worry I'll get over it ,let's just hope it's good enough to beat the opponents when the latest iterations meet over the oceans somewhere and that will be good enough I quess

You can ask youtube to translate,

Also I did the transcript for you.

[albedo]

...but hey looks good but still a 5th gen looking design like the Turkish/ south Korean ,and FCAS 6th design etc to my unknowledgeable eyes lol, suppose it's down too what's onboard tech GCAP that's making it 6th gen ? ,Think I've got in my brain the 6th gen designs from America and China without vertical tails and everything else with vertical tails just looking 5th too me

There's an interesting round-up (just in very broad terms of course) of the runners and riders in the 6th Gen steeplechase here:



As a US-based presentation, I don't think the niceties are really understood of why it wouldn't be prudent for the UK to seek to merge FCAS and GCAP, but still a useful round-up. (Skip the first 3 minutes - it's just irrelevant intro)