Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Contains threads on British Army equipment of the past, present and future.
tomuk
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by tomuk »

Timmymagic wrote: 09 Mar 2023, 00:22
Ron5 wrote: 08 Mar 2023, 13:18 Excellent rant. Dickheads that didn't order Brimstone for Apache need firing or pensions reduced. Probably sitting in the Treasury as we speak.
You could add in the people at the AAC who are looking at APKWS...

Nothing against APKWS, I've said before its one of the most elegant weapon engineering solutions I've ever seen. Cheap and effective too...pretty much perfect. But not when its attached to a Hydra 70....when we have tens of thousands of CRV7 in stock. All we need is to get BAE to make an APKWS that will fit CRV7, which given the calibre is the same is likely just to be the threads on the warhead and rocket motor...a few test shots later and we're good to go.
Magellan current owners of CVR7 had about 15 years ago produced a precision guided concept for CVR7 there was gps\laser and ir seeker options provided by Kongberg.

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by Timmymagic »

tomuk wrote: 09 Mar 2023, 18:04 Magellan current owners of CVR7 had about 15 years ago produced a precision guided concept for CVR7 there was gps\laser and ir seeker options provided by Kongberg.
CRV7-PG.

Unfortunately it suffered from the same issues that all laser guided rockets had until APKWS came along. It didn't re-use all existing components, needing a new seeker head AND warhead section, so was far more expensive and wasteful, and had none of the advantages that APKWS had (seeker head not protected from environmental conditions like sand, or from rocket efflux from neigbouring rockets, reuse of all available warhead types etc.). Basically every precision rocket conversion looks rather lame alongside APKWS whose designers really thought through their brief.

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Tempest414
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by Tempest414 »

Just to throw my hat in the ring on my last visit to Whattisham the talk around Brimstone and Hellfire was 50/50 some felt that Hellfire had worked well for them and that the ability of the US to ramp up production was a big plus and others liked where Brimstone and Cap 3 were going with range and EW . There was also rumbling's around LMM but not many people there were on top of LMM at the time

Also what APKWS now bring is a limited air to air as shown from a F-16
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by NickC »

Boeing doing well recently with sales of 96 to Poland and another 184 for US Army, Australia and Egypt but Business Insider reporting Japan has announced in their Dec 2022 "Defense Buildup Program" they will be going in the exact opposite direction and ditching their attack helicopters saying too vulnerable to anti-aircraft fire " Russia has lost almost 60 attack helicopters in Ukraine, according to the open-source defense site Oryx // In January, Ukraine claims to have shot down three Ka-52s in 30 minutes // Russian attack helicopters have been used extremely cautiously, with a heavy reliance on standoff rocket attacks rendering them little more than flying rocket artillery assets // Britain's Royal United Services Institute noted in a November 2022 report. "Despite this cautious approach, they continue to be shot down regularly by Ukrainian frontline units" using portable anti-aircraft missiles and even anti-tank missiles such as the US-made Javelin."

Quoting AH-64s costing up to $140 million apiece, using a $100,000 loitering munition.

Who is right?

https://www.businessinsider.com/japan-p ... ?r=US&IR=T
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SW1

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by SW1 »

NickC wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 10:54 Boeing doing well recently with sales of 96 to Poland and another 184 for US Army, Australia and Egypt but Business Insider reporting Japan has announced in their Dec 2022 "Defense Buildup Program" they will be going in the exact opposite direction and ditching their attack helicopters saying too vulnerable to anti-aircraft fire " Russia has lost almost 60 attack helicopters in Ukraine, according to the open-source defense site Oryx // In January, Ukraine claims to have shot down three Ka-52s in 30 minutes // Russian attack helicopters have been used extremely cautiously, with a heavy reliance on standoff rocket attacks rendering them little more than flying rocket artillery assets // Britain's Royal United Services Institute noted in a November 2022 report. "Despite this cautious approach, they continue to be shot down regularly by Ukrainian frontline units" using portable anti-aircraft missiles and even anti-tank missiles such as the US-made Javelin."

Quoting AH-64s costing up to $140 million apiece, using a $100,000 loitering munition.

Who is right?

https://www.businessinsider.com/japan-p ... ?r=US&IR=T
Germany also apparently ditching Tiger and replacing with H145m

Phil Sayers
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by Phil Sayers »

The logic of replacing attack helicopters due to being too vulnerable relies on an assumption that future combat will be high intensity warfare in a formidable AD environment. In reality, there will also likely continue to be much lower intensity operations for which Apaches et al are well suited.
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mrclark303
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by mrclark303 »

SW1 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 12:12
NickC wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 10:54 Boeing doing well recently with sales of 96 to Poland and another 184 for US Army, Australia and Egypt but Business Insider reporting Japan has announced in their Dec 2022 "Defense Buildup Program" they will be going in the exact opposite direction and ditching their attack helicopters saying too vulnerable to anti-aircraft fire " Russia has lost almost 60 attack helicopters in Ukraine, according to the open-source defense site Oryx // In January, Ukraine claims to have shot down three Ka-52s in 30 minutes // Russian attack helicopters have been used extremely cautiously, with a heavy reliance on standoff rocket attacks rendering them little more than flying rocket artillery assets // Britain's Royal United Services Institute noted in a November 2022 report. "Despite this cautious approach, they continue to be shot down regularly by Ukrainian frontline units" using portable anti-aircraft missiles and even anti-tank missiles such as the US-made Javelin."

Quoting AH-64s costing up to $140 million apiece, using a $100,000 loitering munition.

Who is right?

https://www.businessinsider.com/japan-p ... ?r=US&IR=T
Germany also apparently ditching Tiger and replacing with H145m
I haven't heard that about Tiger, Eurocopter really is going down the slide isn't it.

The Australians are sick and tired of their poorly built and supported shoddy products....

As are a growing list of countries, grounding and selling off their eurotrash....

sol
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by sol »

NickC wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 10:54 Boeing doing well recently with sales of 96 to Poland and another 184 for US Army, Australia and Egypt but Business Insider reporting Japan has announced in their Dec 2022 "Defense Buildup Program" they will be going in the exact opposite direction and ditching their attack helicopters saying too vulnerable to anti-aircraft fire " Russia has lost almost 60 attack helicopters in Ukraine, according to the open-source defense site Oryx // In January, Ukraine claims to have shot down three Ka-52s in 30 minutes // Russian attack helicopters have been used extremely cautiously, with a heavy reliance on standoff rocket attacks rendering them little more than flying rocket artillery assets // Britain's Royal United Services Institute noted in a November 2022 report. "Despite this cautious approach, they continue to be shot down regularly by Ukrainian frontline units" using portable anti-aircraft missiles and even anti-tank missiles such as the US-made Javelin."

Quoting AH-64s costing up to $140 million apiece, using a $100,000 loitering munition.

Who is right?

https://www.businessinsider.com/japan-p ... ?r=US&IR=T
First someone would need to adequately research reasons for so many lost Ka-52s, maybe it is just not as good as many thought or Russians are not using it the right way. It is to early to call attack helicopter obsolete. It would also be interesting to see with what Japan is intending to replace their attack helicopters, as there is nothing currently on drones market that could adequately replace it. There are some potential concept/proposals but nothing mature. After some early success seems like Ukrainian TB-2 fleet is also more or less shut down now and mostly used for observing from far. It might take years before it happen and Japan would need to keep their AH-1s and AH-64s operational as long as they could.

Also not sure why Japan decision should affect UK. Obtaining AH-64E is already in progress with at least 14 already delivered, and the rest should arrive by 2024. Maybe when times come, they will be replaced with some drone or optionally manned helicopter but that date is still far away and till then UK will have very capable machine, possibly the best currently available.
SW1 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 12:12 Germany also apparently ditching Tiger and replacing with H145m
Germany is thinking of getting rid of Tiger helicopters because very low availability of its fleet. They showed interest in buying Apace AH-64E but seems like that option was ruled out as it would take to long to deliver and it is considered to expensive. So they are considering getting H145M as Tiger replacement, even tho seems like some inside Bundeswehr are really skeptical about its suitability to cover tasks that Tiger did and not quite happy with it. This has nothing to do with experiences from the War in Ukraine or Japan intentions.

sunstersun
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by sunstersun »

The idea of a Helicopter being a sensor and weapons platform is obsolete compared to cheap recon drones in combination with artillery/mlrs/missiles and loitering drones.

Cut the Attack helo, spend that money on drones.

Ukraine's war has proven a 2000$ Mavic drone with artillery can be just as deadly as an Apache.

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by SW1 »

mrclark303 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 14:50
SW1 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 12:12
NickC wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 10:54 Boeing doing well recently with sales of 96 to Poland and another 184 for US Army, Australia and Egypt but Business Insider reporting Japan has announced in their Dec 2022 "Defense Buildup Program" they will be going in the exact opposite direction and ditching their attack helicopters saying too vulnerable to anti-aircraft fire " Russia has lost almost 60 attack helicopters in Ukraine, according to the open-source defense site Oryx // In January, Ukraine claims to have shot down three Ka-52s in 30 minutes // Russian attack helicopters have been used extremely cautiously, with a heavy reliance on standoff rocket attacks rendering them little more than flying rocket artillery assets // Britain's Royal United Services Institute noted in a November 2022 report. "Despite this cautious approach, they continue to be shot down regularly by Ukrainian frontline units" using portable anti-aircraft missiles and even anti-tank missiles such as the US-made Javelin."

Quoting AH-64s costing up to $140 million apiece, using a $100,000 loitering munition.

Who is right?

https://www.businessinsider.com/japan-p ... ?r=US&IR=T
Germany also apparently ditching Tiger and replacing with H145m
I haven't heard that about Tiger, Eurocopter really is going down the slide isn't it.

The Australians are sick and tired of their poorly built and supported shoddy products....

As are a growing list of countries, grounding and selling off their eurotrash....
Your are conflating Eurocopter and NHI industries they are not the same company.

Tiger is very French in that it’s a light attack helicopter similar to Comanche. Germany used the Bo 105 for years in the role after all. In a world of cost benefit other things to invest in I can see why there going back the way they are considering.
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by BB85 »

I don't think the Apaches day is up by a long shot.

The Apache is significantly more advanced than the KA50 in terms of sensor fusion and networking and their pilots and military planners are significantly more experienced and better trained.

The latest Apaches can network with multiple UAVs via the co pilot and engage targets well outside the range of manpads that rely on visual line of sight. They can cover more distance in less time than a UAV and 155mm howitzer ever could, with more precision and less collateral damage especially it it's providing ground support for your own troops.
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by Little J »

sunstersun wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 15:45 Cut the Attack helo, spend that money on drones.

Ukraine's war has proven a 2000$ Mavic drone with artillery can be just as deadly as an Apache.
Ukraine is one war, it would be wise to look at all the scenario's before wiping out a whole type from the inventory...



Don't start giving the Treasury idea's, they have enough bad one's without anyone else helping them ;)
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by Jdam »

Remember how conventional war was a thing of the past not so long ago. :think:

We always go through phases like this were due to something new or our experience increases the old then becomes obsolete, where sometimes that is true it just usually means counter measures or new technology needs to be introduced. I don't see Attack Helicopters going anywhere soon.

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by wargame_insomniac »

BB85 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 16:14 I don't think the Apaches day is up by a long shot.

The Apache is significantly more advanced than the KA50 in terms of sensor fusion and networking and their pilots and military planners are significantly more experienced and better trained.

The latest Apaches can network with multiple UAVs via the co pilot and engage targets well outside the range of manpads that rely on visual line of sight. They can cover more distance in less time than a UAV and 155mm howitzer ever could, with more precision and less collateral damage especially it it's providing ground support for your own troops.
This has been my understanding on feedback on helicopters in Russian Invasion of Ukraine. Attack helicopters are going to need to have NLOS weaponry and targeting to not be a target vs the proliferation of Manpads.

It maybe drones take on more the tasks, including ISTAR and one-shot kamikaze drones.

I still think we will need a balanced army, including both tanks and attack helicopters, which have at various times of the Russia invasion of Ukraine, been questioned as to their ongoing usefulness. The long term conclusions might well be to tweak the relative mix of the number used of each asset, and/or as well as probably tweaking the roles that each asset is used for.

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mrclark303
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by mrclark303 »

SW1 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 16:13
mrclark303 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 14:50
SW1 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 12:12
NickC wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 10:54 Boeing doing well recently with sales of 96 to Poland and another 184 for US Army, Australia and Egypt but Business Insider reporting Japan has announced in their Dec 2022 "Defense Buildup Program" they will be going in the exact opposite direction and ditching their attack helicopters saying too vulnerable to anti-aircraft fire " Russia has lost almost 60 attack helicopters in Ukraine, according to the open-source defense site Oryx // In January, Ukraine claims to have shot down three Ka-52s in 30 minutes // Russian attack helicopters have been used extremely cautiously, with a heavy reliance on standoff rocket attacks rendering them little more than flying rocket artillery assets // Britain's Royal United Services Institute noted in a November 2022 report. "Despite this cautious approach, they continue to be shot down regularly by Ukrainian frontline units" using portable anti-aircraft missiles and even anti-tank missiles such as the US-made Javelin."

Quoting AH-64s costing up to $140 million apiece, using a $100,000 loitering munition.

Who is right?

https://www.businessinsider.com/japan-p ... ?r=US&IR=T
Germany also apparently ditching Tiger and replacing with H145m
I haven't heard that about Tiger, Eurocopter really is going down the slide isn't it.

The Australians are sick and tired of their poorly built and supported shoddy products....

As are a growing list of countries, grounding and selling off their eurotrash....
Your are conflating Eurocopter and NHI industries they are not the same company.

Tiger is very French in that it’s a light attack helicopter similar to Comanche. Germany used the Bo 105 for years in the role after all. In a world of cost benefit other things to invest in I can see why there going back the way they are considering.
Sorry, you are quite right, but from the Tiger to the Sea Lion NATO Frigate Helo, European military helicopters are being ditched left right and centre....

All quite embarrassing

SW1
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by SW1 »

mrclark303 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 19:17
SW1 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 16:13
mrclark303 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 14:50
SW1 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 12:12
NickC wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 10:54 Boeing doing well recently with sales of 96 to Poland and another 184 for US Army, Australia and Egypt but Business Insider reporting Japan has announced in their Dec 2022 "Defense Buildup Program" they will be going in the exact opposite direction and ditching their attack helicopters saying too vulnerable to anti-aircraft fire " Russia has lost almost 60 attack helicopters in Ukraine, according to the open-source defense site Oryx // In January, Ukraine claims to have shot down three Ka-52s in 30 minutes // Russian attack helicopters have been used extremely cautiously, with a heavy reliance on standoff rocket attacks rendering them little more than flying rocket artillery assets // Britain's Royal United Services Institute noted in a November 2022 report. "Despite this cautious approach, they continue to be shot down regularly by Ukrainian frontline units" using portable anti-aircraft missiles and even anti-tank missiles such as the US-made Javelin."

Quoting AH-64s costing up to $140 million apiece, using a $100,000 loitering munition.

Who is right?

https://www.businessinsider.com/japan-p ... ?r=US&IR=T
Germany also apparently ditching Tiger and replacing with H145m
I haven't heard that about Tiger, Eurocopter really is going down the slide isn't it.

The Australians are sick and tired of their poorly built and supported shoddy products....

As are a growing list of countries, grounding and selling off their eurotrash....
Your are conflating Eurocopter and NHI industries they are not the same company.

Tiger is very French in that it’s a light attack helicopter similar to Comanche. Germany used the Bo 105 for years in the role after all. In a world of cost benefit other things to invest in I can see why there going back the way they are considering.
Sorry, you are quite right, but from the Tiger to the Sea Lion NATO Frigate Helo, European military helicopters are being ditched left right and centre....

All quite embarrassing
Not really,

but then I know you are a buy American champion.

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mrclark303
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by mrclark303 »

SW1 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 19:23
mrclark303 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 19:17
SW1 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 16:13
mrclark303 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 14:50
SW1 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 12:12
NickC wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 10:54 Boeing doing well recently with sales of 96 to Poland and another 184 for US Army, Australia and Egypt but Business Insider reporting Japan has announced in their Dec 2022 "Defense Buildup Program" they will be going in the exact opposite direction and ditching their attack helicopters saying too vulnerable to anti-aircraft fire " Russia has lost almost 60 attack helicopters in Ukraine, according to the open-source defense site Oryx // In January, Ukraine claims to have shot down three Ka-52s in 30 minutes // Russian attack helicopters have been used extremely cautiously, with a heavy reliance on standoff rocket attacks rendering them little more than flying rocket artillery assets // Britain's Royal United Services Institute noted in a November 2022 report. "Despite this cautious approach, they continue to be shot down regularly by Ukrainian frontline units" using portable anti-aircraft missiles and even anti-tank missiles such as the US-made Javelin."

Quoting AH-64s costing up to $140 million apiece, using a $100,000 loitering munition.

Who is right?

https://www.businessinsider.com/japan-p ... ?r=US&IR=T
Germany also apparently ditching Tiger and replacing with H145m
I haven't heard that about Tiger, Eurocopter really is going down the slide isn't it.

The Australians are sick and tired of their poorly built and supported shoddy products....

As are a growing list of countries, grounding and selling off their eurotrash....
Your are conflating Eurocopter and NHI industries they are not the same company.

Tiger is very French in that it’s a light attack helicopter similar to Comanche. Germany used the Bo 105 for years in the role after all. In a world of cost benefit other things to invest in I can see why there going back the way they are considering.
Sorry, you are quite right, but from the Tiger to the Sea Lion NATO Frigate Helo, European military helicopters are being ditched left right and centre....

All quite embarrassing
Not really,

but then I know you are a buy American champion.
Wow, really, you don't think that a respected major world power with its finger on the pulse like Australia, ditching it's European helicopters like yesterdays chip paper is totally embarrassing, really!?

Interesting, love to hear your 'positive' spin on it....

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by Meriv9 »

LOL not at all.

I classify Australian procurement as bad as Canadian one.

It is scary taking lessons from those two, the only next step would be coping Indian procurement.

Obviously unless you like to pay useless fines for breaches of contracts.

And not just now. I really hope you don't take the Collins like a successful procurement for example.

And not to offend. But it isn't major, it is a mid sized power like Italy Poland Spain and many others.

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by SW1 »

mrclark303 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 23:27
SW1 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 19:23
mrclark303 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 19:17
SW1 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 16:13
mrclark303 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 14:50
SW1 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 12:12
NickC wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 10:54 Boeing doing well recently with sales of 96 to Poland and another 184 for US Army, Australia and Egypt but Business Insider reporting Japan has announced in their Dec 2022 "Defense Buildup Program" they will be going in the exact opposite direction and ditching their attack helicopters saying too vulnerable to anti-aircraft fire " Russia has lost almost 60 attack helicopters in Ukraine, according to the open-source defense site Oryx // In January, Ukraine claims to have shot down three Ka-52s in 30 minutes // Russian attack helicopters have been used extremely cautiously, with a heavy reliance on standoff rocket attacks rendering them little more than flying rocket artillery assets // Britain's Royal United Services Institute noted in a November 2022 report. "Despite this cautious approach, they continue to be shot down regularly by Ukrainian frontline units" using portable anti-aircraft missiles and even anti-tank missiles such as the US-made Javelin."

Quoting AH-64s costing up to $140 million apiece, using a $100,000 loitering munition.

Who is right?

https://www.businessinsider.com/japan-p ... ?r=US&IR=T
Germany also apparently ditching Tiger and replacing with H145m
I haven't heard that about Tiger, Eurocopter really is going down the slide isn't it.

The Australians are sick and tired of their poorly built and supported shoddy products....

As are a growing list of countries, grounding and selling off their eurotrash....
Your are conflating Eurocopter and NHI industries they are not the same company.

Tiger is very French in that it’s a light attack helicopter similar to Comanche. Germany used the Bo 105 for years in the role after all. In a world of cost benefit other things to invest in I can see why there going back the way they are considering.
Sorry, you are quite right, but from the Tiger to the Sea Lion NATO Frigate Helo, European military helicopters are being ditched left right and centre....

All quite embarrassing
Not really,

but then I know you are a buy American champion.
Wow, really, you don't think that a respected major world power with its finger on the pulse like Australia, ditching it's European helicopters like yesterdays chip paper is totally embarrassing, really!?

Interesting, love to hear your 'positive' spin on it....
Yeah and the way they ditched their seaspirit helicopters before that like yesterdays chip paper is totally embarrassing to America helicopter production…..

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by mrclark303 »

SW1 wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 08:08
mrclark303 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 23:27
SW1 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 19:23
mrclark303 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 19:17
SW1 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 16:13
mrclark303 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 14:50
SW1 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 12:12
NickC wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 10:54 Boeing doing well recently with sales of 96 to Poland and another 184 for US Army, Australia and Egypt but Business Insider reporting Japan has announced in their Dec 2022 "Defense Buildup Program" they will be going in the exact opposite direction and ditching their attack helicopters saying too vulnerable to anti-aircraft fire " Russia has lost almost 60 attack helicopters in Ukraine, according to the open-source defense site Oryx // In January, Ukraine claims to have shot down three Ka-52s in 30 minutes // Russian attack helicopters have been used extremely cautiously, with a heavy reliance on standoff rocket attacks rendering them little more than flying rocket artillery assets // Britain's Royal United Services Institute noted in a November 2022 report. "Despite this cautious approach, they continue to be shot down regularly by Ukrainian frontline units" using portable anti-aircraft missiles and even anti-tank missiles such as the US-made Javelin."

Quoting AH-64s costing up to $140 million apiece, using a $100,000 loitering munition.

Who is right?

https://www.businessinsider.com/japan-p ... ?r=US&IR=T
Germany also apparently ditching Tiger and replacing with H145m
I haven't heard that about Tiger, Eurocopter really is going down the slide isn't it.

The Australians are sick and tired of their poorly built and supported shoddy products....

As are a growing list of countries, grounding and selling off their eurotrash....
Your are conflating Eurocopter and NHI industries they are not the same company.

Tiger is very French in that it’s a light attack helicopter similar to Comanche. Germany used the Bo 105 for years in the role after all. In a world of cost benefit other things to invest in I can see why there going back the way they are considering.
Sorry, you are quite right, but from the Tiger to the Sea Lion NATO Frigate Helo, European military helicopters are being ditched left right and centre....

All quite embarrassing
Not really,

but then I know you are a buy American champion.
Wow, really, you don't think that a respected major world power with its finger on the pulse like Australia, ditching it's European helicopters like yesterdays chip paper is totally embarrassing, really!?

Interesting, love to hear your 'positive' spin on it....
Yeah and the way they ditched their seaspirit helicopters before that like yesterdays chip paper is totally embarrassing to America helicopter production…..
So no positive spin, I m not surprised....

NH90 and NATO Frigate Helo, replaced with UH60 and SH60

Tiger replaced with AH64E.

So it's entire Airbus fleet to be surgically removed asap.

It's really quite shocking.

From a layman's perspective, on paper at least you can see why they went for NH90 and Sea Lion.

Both appear to be what's needed at face value, until they realised after numerous constant rolling fixes, they were just never going to attain the levels of reliability needed or indeed stipulated in the contract.

The Tiger is a harder one to understand... AH64 gives more bang for your buck now matter how you cut the deck. Double the weapons load over the same range as Tiger, or double the range with the same weapons load, with external tanks....

If you are only buying 29, you want the most capable you can possibly buy, I understand they wanted more of a recce asset, but with such a small fleet, you go for an attack and reconnaissance machine, something that will give you the biggest battlefield effect for your money.

Like I said, a very curious decision ... A little defence contractor bribery perhaps??? They all get up to it after all...

We also have Norway, Sweden and Belgium, all offloading the NH90 with Qatar apparently deeply unhappy with theirs too.

One wonders after such a lengthy development programme, how such an unreliable and fundamentally flawed machine has reached this point of service..

I think it's unprecedented.

SW1
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by SW1 »

mrclark303 wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 09:42
SW1 wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 08:08
mrclark303 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 23:27
SW1 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 19:23
mrclark303 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 19:17
SW1 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 16:13
mrclark303 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 14:50
SW1 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 12:12
NickC wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 10:54 Boeing doing well recently with sales of 96 to Poland and another 184 for US Army, Australia and Egypt but Business Insider reporting Japan has announced in their Dec 2022 "Defense Buildup Program" they will be going in the exact opposite direction and ditching their attack helicopters saying too vulnerable to anti-aircraft fire " Russia has lost almost 60 attack helicopters in Ukraine, according to the open-source defense site Oryx // In January, Ukraine claims to have shot down three Ka-52s in 30 minutes // Russian attack helicopters have been used extremely cautiously, with a heavy reliance on standoff rocket attacks rendering them little more than flying rocket artillery assets // Britain's Royal United Services Institute noted in a November 2022 report. "Despite this cautious approach, they continue to be shot down regularly by Ukrainian frontline units" using portable anti-aircraft missiles and even anti-tank missiles such as the US-made Javelin."

Quoting AH-64s costing up to $140 million apiece, using a $100,000 loitering munition.

Who is right?

https://www.businessinsider.com/japan-p ... ?r=US&IR=T
Germany also apparently ditching Tiger and replacing with H145m
I haven't heard that about Tiger, Eurocopter really is going down the slide isn't it.

The Australians are sick and tired of their poorly built and supported shoddy products....

As are a growing list of countries, grounding and selling off their eurotrash....
Your are conflating Eurocopter and NHI industries they are not the same company.

Tiger is very French in that it’s a light attack helicopter similar to Comanche. Germany used the Bo 105 for years in the role after all. In a world of cost benefit other things to invest in I can see why there going back the way they are considering.
Sorry, you are quite right, but from the Tiger to the Sea Lion NATO Frigate Helo, European military helicopters are being ditched left right and centre....

All quite embarrassing
Not really,

but then I know you are a buy American champion.
Wow, really, you don't think that a respected major world power with its finger on the pulse like Australia, ditching it's European helicopters like yesterdays chip paper is totally embarrassing, really!?

Interesting, love to hear your 'positive' spin on it....
Yeah and the way they ditched their seaspirit helicopters before that like yesterdays chip paper is totally embarrassing to America helicopter production…..
So no positive spin, I m not surprised....

NH90 and NATO Frigate Helo, replaced with UH60 and SH60

Tiger replaced with AH64E.

So it's entire Airbus fleet to be surgically removed asap.

It's really quite shocking.

From a layman's perspective, on paper at least you can see why they went for NH90 and Sea Lion.

Both appear to be what's needed at face value, until they realised after numerous constant rolling fixes, they were just never going to attain the levels of reliability needed or indeed stipulated in the contract.

The Tiger is a harder one to understand... AH64 gives more bang for your buck now matter how you cut the deck. Double the weapons load over the same range as Tiger, or double the range with the same weapons load, with external tanks....

If you are only buying 29, you want the most capable you can possibly buy, I understand they wanted more of a recce asset, but with such a small fleet, you go for an attack and reconnaissance machine, something that will give you the biggest battlefield effect for your money.

Like I said, a very curious decision ... A little defence contractor bribery perhaps??? They all get up to it after all...

We also have Norway, Sweden and Belgium, all offloading the NH90 with Qatar apparently deeply unhappy with theirs too.

One wonders after such a lengthy development programme, how such an unreliable and fundamentally flawed machine has reached this point of service..

I think it's unprecedented.
I don’t know how many time I need to repeat this NH90 is NOT an Airbus product it is a NHI product which is the same industrial stable as Merlin.

Unless of course you think MBDA is BAE.

The Australian do no like sending spares back to europe for refurb and wanted a heavier attack helicopter some of the reason for getting rid of tiger. There choice that’s fine.

R686
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by R686 »

mrclark303 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 19:17
I don’t know how many time I need to repeat this NH90 is NOT an Airbus product it is a NHI product which is the same industrial stable as Merlin.
Not the best source but according to wiki Airbus owns 62% of NHI

Leonardo has 32%

Fokker 5%
Or there abouts, they bought it so it’s there problem having majority share
mrclark303 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 19:17
The Australian do no like sending spares back to europe for refurb and wanted a heavier attack helicopter some of the reason for getting rid of tiger. There choice that’s fine.
News to me, do you have a source for that?

Little J
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by Little J »

mrclark303 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 19:17
I don’t know how many time I need to repeat this NH90 is NOT an Airbus product it is a NHI product which is the same industrial stable as Merlin.
Many companies that now make up Airbus are part of the NHI, so depending on your PoV it could be argued in either direction.

Although I'm not sure how that makes them "the same industrial stable as Merlin"?

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by mrclark303 »

R686 wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 12:16
mrclark303 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 19:17
I don’t know how many time I need to repeat this NH90 is NOT an Airbus product it is a NHI product which is the same industrial stable as Merlin.
Not the best source but according to wiki Airbus owns 62% of NHI

Leonardo has 32%

Fokker 5%
Or there abouts, they bought it so it’s there problem having majority share
mrclark303 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 19:17
The Australian do no like sending spares back to europe for refurb and wanted a heavier attack helicopter some of the reason for getting rid of tiger. There choice that’s fine.
News to me, do you have a source for that?
Totally agree, I didn't write it though SW1 did....

He doesn't seem totally sure of facts here...
He appears to ignoring the absolutely abysmal serviceability of the NH90....

You seriously think Australia is getting rid of Tiger 10 years after its adopted because they simply changed their minds SW1???

Is Sweden getting shot of their fleet too because they don't want to send parts for refurbishment across the Baltic?

Your reasoning is utterly on the ropes unfortunately....

The NH90 is going because its sub standard, fundamentally flawed and simply not fit for purpose, or service.

The jury is out on Tiger, the French and Germans ' just had to' do their usual Euro nonsense on this one...

Instead of using the Italian 109 Mangusta as the base design for a pan European attack helicopter project, as suggested by Italy and the UK (something the Turkish have actually done brilliantly since) the Franco German nincompoops just had to reinvent the wheel and insisted on a clean sheet design....

And didn't it sell well.... Big round of applause there!

Thank god the UK had the good sense to pull out at that point and the Italians continued to improve their machine.

SW1
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by SW1 »

mrclark303 wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 20:47
R686 wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 12:16
mrclark303 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 19:17
I don’t know how many time I need to repeat this NH90 is NOT an Airbus product it is a NHI product which is the same industrial stable as Merlin.
Not the best source but according to wiki Airbus owns 62% of NHI

Leonardo has 32%

Fokker 5%
Or there abouts, they bought it so it’s there problem having majority share
mrclark303 wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 19:17
The Australian do no like sending spares back to europe for refurb and wanted a heavier attack helicopter some of the reason for getting rid of tiger. There choice that’s fine.
News to me, do you have a source for that?
Totally agree, I didn't write it though SW1 did....

He doesn't seem totally sure of facts here...
He appears to ignoring the absolutely abysmal serviceability of the NH90....

You seriously think Australia is getting rid of Tiger 10 years after its adopted because they simply changed their minds SW1???

Is Sweden getting shot of their fleet too because they don't want to send parts for refurbishment across the Baltic?

Your reasoning is utterly on the ropes unfortunately....

The NH90 is going because its sub standard, fundamentally flawed and simply not fit for purpose, or service.

The jury is out on Tiger, the French and Germans ' just had to' do their usual Euro nonsense on this one...

Instead of using the Italian 109 Mangusta as the base design for a pan European attack helicopter project, as suggested by Italy and the UK (something the Turkish have actually done brilliantly since) the Franco German nincompoops just had to reinvent the wheel and insisted on a clean sheet design....

And didn't it sell well.... Big round of applause there!

Thank god the UK had the good sense to pull out at that point and the Italians continued to improve their machine.
I could go on in that Australia used an internal system to control configuration and spares life which didn’t account for time on shelf and hence they lost configuration of there entire nh90 fleet now when that happens and you don’t know what’s on what aircraft and how much life you have they have you in for one big bill to sort out. See Boeing and 787 first few dozen jets doing the same thing on the production and most were pushed to the side.

Spares supply has been issue for Australia were as New Zealand operated a smaller fleet with bigger spares holding and has been operated relatively ok. As a concept nh90 suffered a similar fate to a380 to many configurations for too many international regulators and ended up a bit of nightmare. Sweden and Denmark were operating the asw version which has had spare availability issues and asw systems issues, Merlin has had similar issues in the uk.

At that point new is just about expensive and if you’re planning to integrate within American structures and systems you make the choice.

Tiger is in at the MLU point as it is in Germany you either pay the big bill for an above or look to change approach. Australia acquired tiger to replace oh-58 Kiowa warrior in scout attack. The tigers first arrived in Australia in 2004. That’s nearly 20 years ago.

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