The war in Ukraine

[SW1]

In Ukraine fight, integrated air defense has made many aircraft ‘worthless’: US Air Force general

Ukrainian and Russian air defenses have mutually denied air superiority, a problem particularly acute for close air support missions. “Both of their integrated air and missile defense, especially when you're talking about going against aircraft, have been very effective,”

“Both of their integrated air and missile defense, especially when you’re talking about going against aircraft, have been very effective,”

As such, both countries’ militaries have had to adapt their tactics for close air support missions, relying more heavily on ordinance like HIMARS-launched rockets to strike ground targets. Aircraft, meanwhile, have mostly had to hang back outside the coverage of air defense systems and employ longer-range weapons, according to Hecker.

https://breakingdefense.com/2023/03/in- ... e-general/

Thoughts on anything that makes Ukraine "special" or is it now the minimum standard scenario for successfully operating attack aircraft and helos to be equipped with stand-off missiles eg Spear 3 / EW etc be operationally effective.

If a “lesson” from Ukraine is in an integrated air defence regime close air support aircraft largely worthless, remind me how much money the British army is spending on Apache?

[Tempest414]

This some army bod trying to say give me more money the simple fact is there are loads of large cheap drones getting around without being shot down just the other day a Ukrainian drone the size and speed of cessna 152 got deep into Russia that is how good there AD is

we can't say what really works or not Russia's proformance has been piss poor in a number of areas

[Tempest414]

This some army bod trying to say give me more money the simple fact is there are loads of large cheap drones getting around without being shot down just the other day a Ukrainian drone the size and speed of cessna 152 got deep into Russia that is how good there AD is

we can't say what really works or not Russia's proformance has been piss poor in a number of areas

"Gen. James B. Hecker is the Commander, U.S. Air Forces in Europe; Commander, U.S. Air Forces Africa; Commander, Allied Air Command, headquartered at Ramstein"

[mrclark303]

This some army bod trying to say give me more money the simple fact is there are loads of large cheap drones getting around without being shot down just the other day a Ukrainian drone the size and speed of cessna 152 got deep into Russia that is how good there AD is

we can't say what really works or not Russia's proformance has been piss poor in a number of areas

The thing about radar coverage is it's a bit of a misconception that it covers every inch of airspace, a vast country like Russia can't cover it's airspace in its entirety with high resolution radar and a savvy operator like Ukraine can thread there way through the black spots, especially with a drone with a reality small radar signature.

[Tempest414]

This some army bod trying to say give me more money the simple fact is there are loads of large cheap drones getting around without being shot down just the other day a Ukrainian drone the size and speed of cessna 152 got deep into Russia that is how good there AD is

we can't say what really works or not Russia's proformance has been piss poor in a number of areas

The thing about radar coverage is it's a bit of a misconception that it covers every inch of airspace, a vast country like Russia can't cover it's airspace in its entirety with high resolution radar and a savvy operator like Ukraine can thread there way through the black spots, especially with a drone with a reality small radar signature.

Both Russia and Ukraine lack any real SEAD aircraft or the training to put them to real use if they do I stand by what I said about Russia's performance across the board it has been the saving grace for Ukraine

[NickC]

This some army bod trying to say give me more money the simple fact is there are loads of large cheap drones getting around without being shot down just the other day a Ukrainian drone the size and speed of cessna 152 got deep into Russia that is how good there AD is

we can't say what really works or not Russia's proformance has been piss poor in a number of areas

The thing about radar coverage is it's a bit of a misconception that it covers every inch of airspace, a vast country like Russia can't cover it's airspace in its entirety with high resolution radar and a savvy operator like Ukraine can thread there way through the black spots, especially with a drone with a reality small radar signature.

Both Russia and Ukraine lack any real SEAD aircraft or the training to put them to real use if they do I stand by what I said about Russia's performance across the board it has been the saving grace for Ukraine

To be remembered that Soviet Union/Russians have always put much more operational emphasis on medium range air and surface to surface launched tactical missiles as well as attack aircraft and with surprisingly many different missiles in production eg Kalibr (SS-N-30A), Iskander (SS-26 "Stone"), 9M729 (SSC-8), Kh-101 / Kh-102, Kh-47M2 Kinzhal etc, etc. Russia reported as firing as many as 90 missiles a day at Ukraine, whether better than using attack aircraft for close air support missions/SEAD etc or missiles is open to debate, one area of success the Russians did have with their missile attacks was in degrading the Ukrainian power grid.

A problem as in the West it appears the Russians never had a big enough missile stockpile for a war, have resorted to using S-300 AA missiles in the surface to surface role and importing Iranian UAVs

Aircraft SEAD is high risk, RAF Tornado with the unpowered JP-233 suffered a high rate of losses in the Gulf War flying extremely low and fast at targets, losing a Tornado jet every 80 sorties, in contrast to the Americans fighter loss rate one every 750 sorties. Typhon now fitted with Brimstone with its stand-off range ~40km, whether the stand-off range long enough in question as RAF investing approx. £3+ billion in the future 100 km Spear 3 programme to be able counter modern IAMD or the AEW&C (a Beriev A-50 was recently attacked on Belarus airfield) and Su-35 fighters firing the long range Vympel AAM.

[Little J]

Aircraft SEAD is high risk, RAF Tornado with the unpowered JP-233 suffered a high rate of losses in the Gulf War flying extremely low and fast at targets, losing a Tornado jet every 80 sorties, in contrast to the Americans fighter loss rate one every 750 sorties.

That's a little miss-leading though isn't it? As far as I'm aware, the Americans didn't even have anything like JP-233 to use for runway denial. And those op's carried on only until that specific objective was completed.

[mrclark303]

Aircraft SEAD is high risk, RAF Tornado with the unpowered JP-233 suffered a high rate of losses in the Gulf War flying extremely low and fast at targets, losing a Tornado jet every 80 sorties, in contrast to the Americans fighter loss rate one every 750 sorties.

That's a little miss-leading though isn't it? As far as I'm aware, the Americans didn't even have anything like JP-233 to use for runway denial. And those op's carried on only until that specific objective was completed.

The Americans used the durandal runway cratering bomb in limited numbers during the first Gulf War.

JP233 was a dedicated runway denial weapon, so I suppose a SEAD weapon of sorts, the real SEAD weapon was of course HARM and the limited use of ALARM by the Tornados.

JP233 was an exceptionally dangerous weapon to employ, requiring the Tornado to fly down the runway at a set hight and from memory 400 knots, what could possibly go wrong on a heavily defended Airbase!

As Iraqi built airfields the size of international airports with 10,000 + ft runways and taxiways long and wide enough for aircraft use as backups, it was soon realised that such weapons were of limited use, especially taking the losses into account.

You just couldn't knock enough holes into it or scatter enough anti personnel bombs to render the airfield useless.

[SW1]

Contrary to popular believe there was one a/c lost while using jp233.

Most of the loses 4 were on dumb bomb missions.

[NickC]

Aircraft SEAD is high risk, RAF Tornado with the unpowered JP-233 suffered a high rate of losses in the Gulf War flying extremely low and fast at targets, losing a Tornado jet every 80 sorties, in contrast to the Americans fighter loss rate one every 750 sorties.

That's a little miss-leading though isn't it? As far as I'm aware, the Americans didn't even have anything like JP-233 to use for runway denial. And those op's carried on only until that specific objective was completed.

"In Ukraine fight, integrated air defense has made many aircraft ‘worthless’: US Air Force general"

SEAD always wondered if worth the candle with aircraft, remember reading Pierre Clostermann's great WWII book "The Big Show", quotes a 35 second attack on airfield on the Elbe he flew in, 8 Typhons went in at 450 mph, only himself and one other came out the other side, and in those days the Flak was not radar controlled.

KYIV, March 9 (Reuters)
"Russia unleashed a new wave of air strikes across Ukraine on Thursday // Ukraine's military said Russia fired 81 missiles and eight drones in attacks mainly targeting energy infrastructure, and that the weapons used included six hypersonic Kinzhal missiles which Ukraine cannot intercept.//Ukraine's military said air defences knocked out at least 34 missiles and four Shahed suicide drones // Kharkiv region Governor Oleh Synehubov said his city in northeastern Ukraine had been hit by about 15 S-300 ballistic missiles, which Ukraine is also unable to intercept.
"The terrorists are doing everything they can to leave us without power... "

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ru ... 023-03-09/

[Phil Sayers]

Not sure where best to put this but an interesting video on how the British Army are teaching infantry tactics:

[Tempest414]

Contrary to popular believe there was one a/c lost while using jp233.

Most of the loses 4 were on dumb bomb missions.

And at least one was the bomb going off on release bring the aircraft down not enemy action I was a junior Officer to the NAV on that aircraft latter on in his service

[SW1]

[NickC]

Just mind blowing the number of shells being fired per month, anyone know the BAE production capacity per month from its factories in Washington, north-east England and Glascoed in Wales where it adds the explosive charges, 1,000 to 2,000 per month?

FT - 3 Mar 2023 - On average Ukraine was firing 110,000 155mm-calibre shells a month, he says — a quarter of the amount used by Russia.

[Zeno]

Have to be curious what are the Russian stockpiles of shells and which other countries are supplying them to Russia

[SKB]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64992727

[TheLoneRanger]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64992727

Lifetime achievement award for Putin and his legacy .. that of a war criminal. Congratulations Putin - hopefully this is "special" news for you ...

[NickC]

Have to be curious what are the Russian stockpiles of shells and which other countries are supplying them to Russia

Don't know, maybe North Korea and China?

US ordered 100,000 155mm shells from South Korea and planning to ramp up its internal production from their Scranton plant, Pennsylvania from 11,000 a month to 70,000 a month by 2025, having problems in sourcing the necessary plant machinery, also mention of a 90,000 figure which might be with the addition of new plant in Texas.

Telegraph says Brussels plan to purchase one million 155mm shells, the initial proposal saw €1 billion in EU funding set aside to reimburse member states that can immediately donate ammunition from their stockpiles to Ukraine, EU has supplied 350,000 shells to date and Brussels has so far reimbursed its member states €450 million for their donations, at an estimated cost of €1,285 per shell. A further €1 billion from the bloc’s financial coffers would be used to jointly purchase new munitions on the open market in the hope larger orders will mean a lower price per shell but internal wrangling delaying deal, said France is objecting saying money must only be spent in the EU states, suggestion that contract might have been be placed with Turkey.

[Zeno]

This article states a unit cost of the 155mil shells at 3.3 thousand Euros ,and the price of shells have risen because of shortages
https://en.defence-ua.com/analysis/how_ ... per%20unit.

[TheLoneRanger]

Russians cannot get hold of tanks quick enough :

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2 ... 2b881e87ee

It is only a matter of time before we start seeing T-34's in the Ukrainian war.

[Zeno]

Before the t-34 we have the t-55 coming of course this may be a way to use up the Ukrainian anti tank weapons and protect the t-80,s etc.
https://english.nv.ua/nation/mothballed ... 12497.html

[inch]

Before the t-34 we have the t-55 coming of course this may be a way to use up the Ukrainian anti tank weapons and protect the t-80,s etc.
https://english.nv.ua/nation/mothballed ... 12497.html

Yes I thought maybe just maybe Russia is using old stock to deplete the west/Ukraine stocks of ammo, anti-tank missiles equipment etc and actually keeping a large supply back to suprise the Ukrainians with the western tanks and kit in upcoming offensive,I'm sure Russia is planning something tbh ,they know the offensive is coming, sometimes I think the west reports get over zealous about the quick Denise of Russian equipment, manpower, ammunitions ,missiles etc but they will keep going even loosing thousands of men and equipment the problem is they are still creeping forwards,even using v old equipment but never ending supply of it might be a problem for Ukraine,just the shear numbers, fingers crossed hopefully not and Ukraine offensive will manage what they set out to achieve

[jimthelad]

T54/55 are easy to train people on, simple to maintain, and run forever. In an attritional war, it isn't the number of tanks that is the problem, but the trained crews.

[Little J]

Sent this to a friend yesterday

Russia is responding to Ukraine getting Challenger and Leopards... They're digging up T-54's ... I think we need to up the ante... Send in the Churchill's!!!!

[Zeno]

There were previously satellite pictures of the tank lots for storage of the old tanks would love to see if these have changed recently