New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

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It's February 2024 - Which way is NMH going to go?

Please note that results are sorted by decreasing number of votes received.

Leonardo AW-149
11
61%
Sikorsky S-70M Black Hawk
4
22%
Programme cancelled
2
11%
Airbus H-175M
1
6%
Boeing MH-139 (back from the dead?)
0
No votes
Puma kept in service till next-gen
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 18

Ron5
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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Ron5 »

My point is that if your issue is that the current national supplier has problems, the solution is to address those problems not order from a new shiny sixpence foreign supplier with a totally fresh new set of problems (that you don't know about yet). And in so doing, destroy your national supplier.
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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by tomuk »

Ron5 wrote: 08 Mar 2023, 13:27 My point is that if your issue is that the current national supplier has problems, the solution is to address those problems not order from a new shiny sixpence foreign supplier with a totally fresh new set of problems (that you don't know about yet). And in so doing, destroy your national supplier.
Not forgetting that the issues with the national supplier are probably due to not receiving timely orders therefore not keeping the production line hot and then when orders do arrive they are for an over specced gold plated curiosity that no one wants to buy in export markets.
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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Jensy »

Ron5 wrote: 08 Mar 2023, 13:27 My point is that if your issue is that the current national supplier has problems, the solution is to address those problems not order from a new shiny sixpence foreign supplier with a totally fresh new set of problems (that you don't know about yet). And in so doing, destroy your national supplier.
I don't disagree but it's been a long time since AW was 'our' national supplier. Even if GKN kept a great deal of the supply chain after the sale of their share in the firm.

The anti-BAE trend was far more self-destructive and petty.

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by SW1 »

Airbus is a much larger “national” Aerospace entity in U.K. than leonardo.
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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Jensy »

SW1 wrote: 09 Mar 2023, 08:00 Airbus is a much larger “national” Aerospace entity in U.K. than leonardo.
Well quite. Even if the Airbus Helicopters operation at Oxford is fairly modest in comparison to commercial and military fixed wing.

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Ron5 »

SW1 wrote: 09 Mar 2023, 08:00 Airbus is a much larger “national” Aerospace entity in U.K. than leonardo.
Yeah, let me count how many complete designs are built and tested by Airbus in the UK. Expertise in building wings is not that useful for helo's :D

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by tomuk »

SW1 wrote: 09 Mar 2023, 08:00 Airbus is a much larger “national” Aerospace entity in U.K. than leonardo.
Fine order some more aircraft with Broughton built wings then.

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by SW1 »

Jensy wrote: 09 Mar 2023, 12:33
SW1 wrote: 09 Mar 2023, 08:00 Airbus is a much larger “national” Aerospace entity in U.K. than leonardo.
Well quite. Even if the Airbus Helicopters operation at Oxford is fairly modest in comparison to commercial and military fixed wing.
And satellites

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by SW1 »

Ron5 wrote: 09 Mar 2023, 12:48
SW1 wrote: 09 Mar 2023, 08:00 Airbus is a much larger “national” Aerospace entity in U.K. than leonardo.
Yeah, let me count how many complete designs are built and tested by Airbus in the UK. Expertise in building wings is not that useful for helo's :D
Point me in the direction of any company that does that in the uk. Will need to go back about 50 years mind.

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Meriv9 »

And see the other side of the medal. How do you think we feel on Leonardo Radars?

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Jensy »

Ron5 wrote: 09 Mar 2023, 12:48
SW1 wrote: 09 Mar 2023, 08:00 Airbus is a much larger “national” Aerospace entity in U.K. than leonardo.
Yeah, let me count how many complete designs are built and tested by Airbus in the UK. Expertise in building wings is not that useful for helo's :D
Well.... I can count one! ;)

Image

Had AW delivered the industrial promises they made on AW169, I wouldn't for one second even consider Airbus. However, once again Yeovil's loss is Verigate's gain.

Which is what happens when you're a customer rather than a 50% shareholder.

Frankly, with the way the Government is cutting spending on everything, I'm starting to get the whiff of death about the whole programme.
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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Ron5 »

Wildcat, Typhoon & Hawk don't count?

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Little J »

Jensy wrote: 09 Mar 2023, 14:59 Frankly, with the way the Government is cutting spending on everything, I'm starting to get the whiff of death about the whole programme.
Yea, I wouldn't be surprised if they canned it and held on to Puma for a few more years with the "suggestion" that they'll go straight to Valor (built in the UK under licence by someoneorother)...

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by mrclark303 »

Little J wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 13:33
Jensy wrote: 09 Mar 2023, 14:59 Frankly, with the way the Government is cutting spending on everything, I'm starting to get the whiff of death about the whole programme.
Yea, I wouldn't be surprised if they canned it and held on to Puma for a few more years with the "suggestion" that they'll go straight to Valor (built in the UK under licence by someoneorother)...
I doubt it, the next gen tilt rotor is still 'many' years from service, after all only the technology demonstrators have flown, next it's the engineering and pre production prototypes, I would be surprised if there were any deliveries to the US army before 2030.

Then years later for export customers, so probably no chance of an RAF buy before 2035 anyway.

I wouldn't be against getting in on the the programme now (via BAE Systems) with perhaps some UK production content and leasing Blackhawks as a stopgap for 10 or so years though.

We may as well join in the technology leap, rather than spend an absolute fortune on an Italian helicopter that's going to be looking old hat within 10 years anyway as next gen tilt rotors totally out perform them in every way.

The Puma is getting tired now, it has to go within the next few years, it's served well for 50 years after all.

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by SW1 »

mrclark303 wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 18:42
Little J wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 13:33
Jensy wrote: 09 Mar 2023, 14:59 Frankly, with the way the Government is cutting spending on everything, I'm starting to get the whiff of death about the whole programme.
Yea, I wouldn't be surprised if they canned it and held on to Puma for a few more years with the "suggestion" that they'll go straight to Valor (built in the UK under licence by someoneorother)...
I doubt it, the next gen tilt rotor is still 'many' years from service, after all only the technology demonstrators have flown, next it's the engineering and pre production prototypes, I would be surprised if there were any deliveries to the US army before 2030.

Then years later for export customers, so probably no chance of an RAF buy before 2035 anyway.

I wouldn't be against getting in on the the programme now (via BAE Systems) with perhaps some UK production content and leasing Blackhawks as a stopgap for 10 or so years though.

We may as well join in the technology leap, rather than spend an absolute fortune on an Italian helicopter that's going to be looking old hat within 10 years anyway as next gen tilt rotors totally out perform them in every way.

The Puma is getting tired now, it has to go within the next few years, it's served well for 50 years after all.
Why would you be anywhere near bae systems?. Look at who the major structural sub component and engine manufacturers are for valor use there uk outfits. Get Bell to set up an FAL if the order is big enough.

Problem is there’s no selection at present because of the inevitable appeal by the losers. Other major issue is expense. It will be much more expensive than what it replaces both to buy and thru life, either other programs disappear or numbers get smaller. If you do go this route a number of sacred cows may need slaughtering to not only pay for it but the change in operational profile it would bring with it.

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by tomuk »

SW1 wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 19:25
mrclark303 wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 18:42
Little J wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 13:33
Jensy wrote: 09 Mar 2023, 14:59 Frankly, with the way the Government is cutting spending on everything, I'm starting to get the whiff of death about the whole programme.
Yea, I wouldn't be surprised if they canned it and held on to Puma for a few more years with the "suggestion" that they'll go straight to Valor (built in the UK under licence by someoneorother)...
I doubt it, the next gen tilt rotor is still 'many' years from service, after all only the technology demonstrators have flown, next it's the engineering and pre production prototypes, I would be surprised if there were any deliveries to the US army before 2030.

Then years later for export customers, so probably no chance of an RAF buy before 2035 anyway.

I wouldn't be against getting in on the the programme now (via BAE Systems) with perhaps some UK production content and leasing Blackhawks as a stopgap for 10 or so years though.

We may as well join in the technology leap, rather than spend an absolute fortune on an Italian helicopter that's going to be looking old hat within 10 years anyway as next gen tilt rotors totally out perform them in every way.

The Puma is getting tired now, it has to go within the next few years, it's served well for 50 years after all.
Why would you be anywhere near bae systems?. Look at who the major structural sub component and engine manufacturers are for valor use there uk outfits. Get Bell to set up an FAL if the order is big enough.

Problem is there’s no selection at present because of the inevitable appeal by the losers. Other major issue is expense. It will be much more expensive than what it replaces both to buy and thru life, either other programs disappear or numbers get smaller. If you do go this root a number of sacred cows may need slaughtering to not only pay for it but the change in operational profile it would bring with it.
FAL and fuselage in Belfast, Tail from Isle of Wight and engines from Cardiff.
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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by SW1 »

tomuk wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 20:44
SW1 wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 19:25
mrclark303 wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 18:42
Little J wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 13:33
Jensy wrote: 09 Mar 2023, 14:59 Frankly, with the way the Government is cutting spending on everything, I'm starting to get the whiff of death about the whole programme.
Yea, I wouldn't be surprised if they canned it and held on to Puma for a few more years with the "suggestion" that they'll go straight to Valor (built in the UK under licence by someoneorother)...
I doubt it, the next gen tilt rotor is still 'many' years from service, after all only the technology demonstrators have flown, next it's the engineering and pre production prototypes, I would be surprised if there were any deliveries to the US army before 2030.

Then years later for export customers, so probably no chance of an RAF buy before 2035 anyway.

I wouldn't be against getting in on the the programme now (via BAE Systems) with perhaps some UK production content and leasing Blackhawks as a stopgap for 10 or so years though.

We may as well join in the technology leap, rather than spend an absolute fortune on an Italian helicopter that's going to be looking old hat within 10 years anyway as next gen tilt rotors totally out perform them in every way.

The Puma is getting tired now, it has to go within the next few years, it's served well for 50 years after all.
Why would you be anywhere near bae systems?. Look at who the major structural sub component and engine manufacturers are for valor use there uk outfits. Get Bell to set up an FAL if the order is big enough.

Problem is there’s no selection at present because of the inevitable appeal by the losers. Other major issue is expense. It will be much more expensive than what it replaces both to buy and thru life, either other programs disappear or numbers get smaller. If you do go this root a number of sacred cows may need slaughtering to not only pay for it but the change in operational profile it would bring with it.
FAL and fuselage in Belfast, Tail from Isle of Wight and engines from Cardiff.
Though the production a/c looks like it will have RR engines rather than GE ones.

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by mrclark303 »

SW1 wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 19:25
mrclark303 wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 18:42
Little J wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 13:33
Jensy wrote: 09 Mar 2023, 14:59 Frankly, with the way the Government is cutting spending on everything, I'm starting to get the whiff of death about the whole programme.
Yea, I wouldn't be surprised if they canned it and held on to Puma for a few more years with the "suggestion" that they'll go straight to Valor (built in the UK under licence by someoneorother)...
I doubt it, the next gen tilt rotor is still 'many' years from service, after all only the technology demonstrators have flown, next it's the engineering and pre production prototypes, I would be surprised if there were any deliveries to the US army before 2030.

Then years later for export customers, so probably no chance of an RAF buy before 2035 anyway.

I wouldn't be against getting in on the the programme now (via BAE Systems) with perhaps some UK production content and leasing Blackhawks as a stopgap for 10 or so years though.

We may as well join in the technology leap, rather than spend an absolute fortune on an Italian helicopter that's going to be looking old hat within 10 years anyway as next gen tilt rotors totally out perform them in every way.

The Puma is getting tired now, it has to go within the next few years, it's served well for 50 years after all.
Why would you be anywhere near bae systems?. Look at who the major structural sub component and engine manufacturers are for valor use there uk outfits. Get Bell to set up an FAL if the order is big enough.

Problem is there’s no selection at present because of the inevitable appeal by the losers. Other major issue is expense. It will be much more expensive than what it replaces both to buy and thru life, either other programs disappear or numbers get smaller. If you do go this route a number of sacred cows may need slaughtering to not only pay for it but the change in operational profile it would bring with it.
Good points, I only mentioned BAE Systems as a structures manufacturer, to be fair they are at least
(mainly) a UK owned company, so the money (mainly) stays in the UK.

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by SW1 »

mrclark303 wrote: 11 Mar 2023, 10:52
SW1 wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 19:25
mrclark303 wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 18:42
Little J wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 13:33
Jensy wrote: 09 Mar 2023, 14:59 Frankly, with the way the Government is cutting spending on everything, I'm starting to get the whiff of death about the whole programme.
Yea, I wouldn't be surprised if they canned it and held on to Puma for a few more years with the "suggestion" that they'll go straight to Valor (built in the UK under licence by someoneorother)...
I doubt it, the next gen tilt rotor is still 'many' years from service, after all only the technology demonstrators have flown, next it's the engineering and pre production prototypes, I would be surprised if there were any deliveries to the US army before 2030.

Then years later for export customers, so probably no chance of an RAF buy before 2035 anyway.

I wouldn't be against getting in on the the programme now (via BAE Systems) with perhaps some UK production content and leasing Blackhawks as a stopgap for 10 or so years though.

We may as well join in the technology leap, rather than spend an absolute fortune on an Italian helicopter that's going to be looking old hat within 10 years anyway as next gen tilt rotors totally out perform them in every way.

The Puma is getting tired now, it has to go within the next few years, it's served well for 50 years after all.
Why would you be anywhere near bae systems?. Look at who the major structural sub component and engine manufacturers are for valor use there uk outfits. Get Bell to set up an FAL if the order is big enough.

Problem is there’s no selection at present because of the inevitable appeal by the losers. Other major issue is expense. It will be much more expensive than what it replaces both to buy and thru life, either other programs disappear or numbers get smaller. If you do go this route a number of sacred cows may need slaughtering to not only pay for it but the change in operational profile it would bring with it.
Good points, I only mentioned BAE Systems as a structures manufacturer, to be fair they are at least
(mainly) a UK owned company, so the money (mainly) stays in the UK.
BAES is not a “UK owned” company it is listed on the uk stock exchange anyone can own the shares. There is a golden share in it which means the government has an enhanced say. But any company that operates in the uk pays tax on that uk entity in the uk. Baes operation in the US pays tax in the US as is the norm for multi nationals . Now there is practices where multinationals can manipulate “overheads” to the there lowest tax domain
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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by mrclark303 »

SW1 wrote: 11 Mar 2023, 11:08
mrclark303 wrote: 11 Mar 2023, 10:52
SW1 wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 19:25
mrclark303 wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 18:42
Little J wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 13:33
Jensy wrote: 09 Mar 2023, 14:59 Frankly, with the way the Government is cutting spending on everything, I'm starting to get the whiff of death about the whole programme.
Yea, I wouldn't be surprised if they canned it and held on to Puma for a few more years with the "suggestion" that they'll go straight to Valor (built in the UK under licence by someoneorother)...
I doubt it, the next gen tilt rotor is still 'many' years from service, after all only the technology demonstrators have flown, next it's the engineering and pre production prototypes, I would be surprised if there were any deliveries to the US army before 2030.

Then years later for export customers, so probably no chance of an RAF buy before 2035 anyway.

I wouldn't be against getting in on the the programme now (via BAE Systems) with perhaps some UK production content and leasing Blackhawks as a stopgap for 10 or so years though.

We may as well join in the technology leap, rather than spend an absolute fortune on an Italian helicopter that's going to be looking old hat within 10 years anyway as next gen tilt rotors totally out perform them in every way.

The Puma is getting tired now, it has to go within the next few years, it's served well for 50 years after all.
Why would you be anywhere near bae systems?. Look at who the major structural sub component and engine manufacturers are for valor use there uk outfits. Get Bell to set up an FAL if the order is big enough.

Problem is there’s no selection at present because of the inevitable appeal by the losers. Other major issue is expense. It will be much more expensive than what it replaces both to buy and thru life, either other programs disappear or numbers get smaller. If you do go this route a number of sacred cows may need slaughtering to not only pay for it but the change in operational profile it would bring with it.
Good points, I only mentioned BAE Systems as a structures manufacturer, to be fair they are at least
(mainly) a UK owned company, so the money (mainly) stays in the UK.
BAES is not a “UK owned” company it is listed on the uk stock exchange anyone can own the shares. There is a golden share in it which means the government has an enhanced say. But any company that operates in the uk pays tax on that uk entity in the uk. Baes operation in the US pays tax in the US as is the norm for multi nationals . Now there is practices where multinationals can manipulate “overheads” to the there lowest tax domain
Hence ( mainly) SW1 in my answer. It's certainly more British than Leonardo let's say.....

That really is a wholly owned Italian company assembling Italian designed Helicopters in an Italian owned factory.

Once GKN severed their links and the final British design crashed and burnt (Wildcat), the games over.

Invest in next generation tilt rotor technology, the UK can get involved on the ground floor....

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Ron5 »

Three thousand folks from Somerset on line 2.

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by mrclark303 »

Ron5 wrote: 12 Mar 2023, 13:29 Three thousand folks from Somerset on line 2.
Tell them to use the prefex 0039 Ron and speak to their employers.

Are we looking for a proper medium helicopter solution, or running an employment agency?

Don't worry, Leonardo will win, of that I have absolutely no doubt as the tail once again wags the dog...

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by mrclark303 »

mrclark303 wrote: 12 Mar 2023, 14:13
Ron5 wrote: 12 Mar 2023, 13:29 Three thousand folks from Somerset on line 2.
Tell them to use the prefex 0039 Ron and speak to their employers.

Are we looking for a proper medium helicopter solution, or running an employment agency?

Don't worry, Leonardo will win, of that I have absolutely no doubt as the tail once again wags the dog...
The current cost of a bog standard UH-60M, as delivered to the US Army is about $6 million a copy.

Let's take a guess as to the unit price of AW149 after specific UK modifications, rolling off the Wasteland line,

£25 million, £35 million higher??

I'm going for £40 million a copy, shall we have a sweepstake guys??

There's another 5 billion to waste on bloated bespoke procurement after all!

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by SW1 »

mrclark303 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 09:28
mrclark303 wrote: 12 Mar 2023, 14:13
Ron5 wrote: 12 Mar 2023, 13:29 Three thousand folks from Somerset on line 2.
Tell them to use the prefex 0039 Ron and speak to their employers.

Are we looking for a proper medium helicopter solution, or running an employment agency?

Don't worry, Leonardo will win, of that I have absolutely no doubt as the tail once again wags the dog...
The current cost of a bog standard UH-60M, as delivered to the US Army is about $6 million a copy.

Let's take a guess as to the unit price of AW149 after specific UK modifications, rolling off the Wasteland line,

£25 million, £35 million higher??

I'm going for £40 million a copy, shall we have a sweepstake guys??

There's another 5 billion to waste on bloated bespoke procurement after all!


Those are pie in the sky Blackhawk cost numbers totally irrelevant to U.K. purchase.

The recent FMS for Australia of 40 has the bill at 1.95billion US.

If we are handing further multi billion pound contracts to US companies for ZERO national investment then the defence budget needs cut not increased.
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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by sol »

mrclark303 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 09:28 The current cost of a bog standard UH-60M, as delivered to the US Army is about $6 million a copy.
I am not sure where do you get this number. For example Croatia is getting 4 UH-60M. Two were donated by US but other two are paid $55 million.
Croatia is set to receive four UH-60M helicopters, with two acquired by the country for HRK360 million (USD55 million) and two donated by the US government.
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... lack-hawks

In 2020, US approved a sale of single UH-60M to Jordan for price of $23 million

https://helihub.com/2020/07/10/us-appro ... to-jordan/

So I doubt that it cost is just $6 million a copy. And even if it cost US that much it would cost UK much more, and looking into Croatian order, probably well over $20 million per unit.
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