Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

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SD67
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Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by SD67 »

BB85 wrote: 01 Mar 2023, 09:19
I don't recall ever seeing a demonstration vehicle or the mod signing off that it met any requirements, maybe it was demonstrated on a power point demonstration that cost £500m.

Ideally BAE and GD should have been contracted to produce demonstration vehicles with the most .
Absolutely
If 859£ million can buy us full detailed design of a world beating warship 150 metres x 20 then £500 million should buy us a couple of functioning prototypes for a 7 metre vehicle platform.

But we are where we are.
Much of the 5.5 billion has been paid out - as much as 4 billion depending on which source you believe. GD have not been paid for 2 years. 20 vehicles have been accepted - none turreted. “150 hulls in various stages of completion “ is meaningless as it’s the final integration which is the tricky bit. IOC projected at 2030 but no guarantee
IMHO there is no way GD are going to deliver 550 vehicles - at least 300 of which haven’t started yet - within the 1.5 billion of budget remaining.
I’d say the least bad option from here is a “handshake and walk away” agreement with GD Leave all WIP and IP, we won’t sue you you don’t sue us.
Then hand the thing over to RBSL to see if they can salvage something - like H&K did with the SA80. Maybe 200 ish turreted versions get assembled in Newcastle. The country cannot support two centres of AFV production in any case that site in Wales has a limited future.

/end rant

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Tempest414
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Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by Tempest414 »

SD67 wrote: 02 Mar 2023, 04:33
BB85 wrote: 01 Mar 2023, 09:19
I don't recall ever seeing a demonstration vehicle or the mod signing off that it met any requirements, maybe it was demonstrated on a power point demonstration that cost £500m.

Ideally BAE and GD should have been contracted to produce demonstration vehicles with the most .
Absolutely
If 859£ million can buy us full detailed design of a world beating warship 150 metres x 20 then £500 million should buy us a couple of functioning prototypes for a 7 metre vehicle platform.

But we are where we are.
Much of the 5.5 billion has been paid out - as much as 4 billion depending on which source you believe. GD have not been paid for 2 years. 20 vehicles have been accepted - none turreted. “150 hulls in various stages of completion “ is meaningless as it’s the final integration which is the tricky bit. IOC projected at 2030 but no guarantee
IMHO there is no way GD are going to deliver 550 vehicles - at least 300 of which haven’t started yet - within the 1.5 billion of budget remaining.
I’d say the least bad option from here is a “handshake and walk away” agreement with GD Leave all WIP and IP, we won’t sue you you don’t sue us.
Then hand the thing over to RBSL to see if they can salvage something - like H&K did with the SA80. Maybe 200 ish turreted versions get assembled in Newcastle. The country cannot support two centres of AFV production in any case that site in Wales has a limited future.

/end rant
In part I agree but we need clear up the full and finale design cost of type 26 was closer to 1.5 billion Pounds however we really should have got a set of proper prototypes for the 500 million

mr.fred
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Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by mr.fred »

SD67 wrote: 02 Mar 2023, 04:33
Absolutely
If 859£ million can buy us full detailed design of a world beating warship 150 metres x 20 then £500 million should buy us a couple of functioning prototypes for a 7 metre vehicle platform.
The competitive prototype phase for CR3 cost something like £650m

Ron5
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Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by Ron5 »

mr.fred wrote: 02 Mar 2023, 12:18
SD67 wrote: 02 Mar 2023, 04:33
Absolutely
If 859£ million can buy us full detailed design of a world beating warship 150 metres x 20 then £500 million should buy us a couple of functioning prototypes for a 7 metre vehicle platform.
The competitive prototype phase for CR3 cost something like £650m
Not hardly dude.

sol
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Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by sol »

mr.fred wrote: 02 Mar 2023, 12:18 The competitive prototype phase for CR3 cost something like £650m
That is not correct. BAE and RM got £23 million each, plus £7 million for additional costs for total of £53 million for assessment phase. Total worth of the Challenger 2 LEP was supposed to be around £650 million but this is not what was spent on prototype phase.
The total value of the Challenger 2 Assessment Phase is £53 million. This includes both £23 million Assessment Phase contracts and a further £7 million to cover additional work.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/mod- ... ompetition
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mr.fred
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Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by mr.fred »

sol wrote: 02 Mar 2023, 15:11
That is not correct. BAE and RM got £23 million each, plus £7 million for additional costs for total of £53 million for assessment phase. Total worth of the Challenger 2 LEP was supposed to be around £650 million but this is not what was spent on prototype phase.
That’s me reading the wrong bit of information.

SD67
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Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by SD67 »

Intuitively 50 million feels about right for a fully engineered vehicle prototype., given you're not starting from zero.

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Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by mr.fred »

SD67 wrote: 03 Mar 2023, 12:08 Intuitively 50 million feels about right for a fully engineered vehicle prototype., given you're not starting from zero.
What do you mean by "fully engineered" prototype, because that sounds like an oxymoron to me.

SD67
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Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by SD67 »

Generally a prototype is something that can be put into production with minimal changes ie EAP was not a prototype of Typhoon. So yes fully engineered. Maybe not fully parts-sourced or fully tooled up for. But enough to serve as the baseline for productionisation. Changes from that point only as strictly required, via rigorous change control governance.

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Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by mr.fred »

Outside the vagueness of 'minimal changes', I think that you are hugely optimistic if you think you can get that amount of engineering out of £50m. Also then it's definitely an oxymoron. I can't think of a single example of a prototype that would fit your description.

I'd think a term like 'functional' would do.

SD67
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Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by SD67 »

Well I’m sure that’s what a GD salesman would say and they’d likely find someone at DES to believe them.
200 people for 2 years at a loaded cost of 100k per head + materials = £50 million. How many people to GD Land Systems have in Europe, I mean on the engineering side? Same as the CH3 demonstration phase. Ok swap minimal for functional - playing with words IMHO.00

RunningStrong
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Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by RunningStrong »

Whilst hugely off topic, the CR3 development funding provided in the competitive phase is somewhat a red herring.

The Challenger 2 Life Extension Programme was a limited scope, obsolescence programme. It was not CR3. It was hard to call it an upgrade as the additional functionality was almost nil.

Team Challenger 2 went with that brief. Rheinmettal rolled the dice on an upgrade to the weapon system and a fundamentally new turret, and did so at their own risk. It paid off and with a bit of anti-competitive procurement they were able to win the competition and sign a contract for something that was completely beyond the scope of CR2 LEP when originally launched by MOD. It was some top notch business work, that's for sure.

mr.fred
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Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by mr.fred »

SD67 wrote: 05 Mar 2023, 18:27 Well I’m sure that’s what a GD salesman would say and they’d likely find someone at DES to believe them.
200 people for 2 years at a loaded cost of 100k per head + materials = £50 million. How many people to GD Land Systems have in Europe, I mean on the engineering side? Same as the CH3 demonstration phase. Ok swap minimal for functional - playing with words IMHO.00
Challenger LEP was what, £23m each?for an upgrade to an existing vehicle and the entry into service of later this decade plus news releases suggests that those prototypes weren’t “fully engineered”.
Yet you expect a whole new vehicle engineered to a much higher standard for only twice that?

BB85
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Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by BB85 »

GD and BAE both submitted existing IFV designs, updated with the latest sensors, digital architecture and the CTA turret to meet the scout requirements. They where not new vehicles engineered from a blank sheet of paper. It's also fair to expect a certain amount of industry investment already taking place to develop new sensors and digital architecture to stay relevant on the export market. I have no idea what a fair mod funding allocation would have been to design and build a vehicle suitable for trials but it still should have been done regardless with the best performing vehicle selected before placing a production contract.
Both chassis designs were only proven up to 25T so increasing to 40T needed to be demonstrated along with integrating the CTA turret.
The fact the GD was required to change the suspension to meet US performance targets on a vehicles the same weight doesn't look good.
Neither did coming last in the Australia land 400 program, its a pity the results will not be published.

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Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by Ron5 »

BB85 wrote: 06 Mar 2023, 10:07 Neither did coming last in the Australia land 400 program

Not the only competition it lost.

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Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by Ron5 »

Rumors are that Italy will be the latest customer for CV90 Mk IV. So yet another missed opportunity for Ajax.

sol
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Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by sol »

Ron5 wrote: 06 Mar 2023, 13:42 Rumors are that Italy will be the latest customer for CV90 Mk IV. So yet another missed opportunity for Ajax.
To be fair, there was no official competition and this is intended as interim solution. Seems like Italy might decide to buy some 70-100 (depending on source) Leo 2A7 or 2A7+ and some 100 CV90 for "Ariete" Armoured Brigade. Reason is that C1 tank upgrade program is progressing really slow (Italy will still upgrade 125 C1 tanks out of 200 currently active), just like delays in Dardo IFV replacement program. So this will just cover gap till the next generation of tanks and IFVs are developed.

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Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by Ron5 »

sol wrote: 06 Mar 2023, 14:35
Ron5 wrote: 06 Mar 2023, 13:42 Rumors are that Italy will be the latest customer for CV90 Mk IV. So yet another missed opportunity for Ajax.
To be fair, there was no official competition and this is intended as interim solution. Seems like Italy might decide to buy some 70-100 (depending on source) Leo 2A7 or 2A7+ and some 100 CV90 for "Ariete" Armoured Brigade. Reason is that C1 tank upgrade program is progressing really slow (Italy will still upgrade 125 C1 tanks out of 200 currently active), just like delays in Dardo IFV replacement program. So this will just cover gap till the next generation of tanks and IFVs are developed.
So you don't think they even looked at Ajax?

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Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by tomuk »

sol wrote: 06 Mar 2023, 14:35
Ron5 wrote: 06 Mar 2023, 13:42 Rumors are that Italy will be the latest customer for CV90 Mk IV. So yet another missed opportunity for Ajax.
To be fair, there was no official competition and this is intended as interim solution. Seems like Italy might decide to buy some 70-100 (depending on source) Leo 2A7 or 2A7+ and some 100 CV90 for "Ariete" Armoured Brigade. Reason is that C1 tank upgrade program is progressing really slow (Italy will still upgrade 125 C1 tanks out of 200 currently active), just like delays in Dardo IFV replacement program. So this will just cover gap till the next generation of tanks and IFVs are developed.
If your going to buy new Leopard in the interim what is the point of the C1 upgrade? The last C1 were produced 20 years ago do Iveco\Leonardo still have any capability. With CR3 at least we have joined up with Rheinmetall so we have a toe in the Leopard replacement or could provide a hull for its turret if Nexter\KMW take the lead.

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Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by RunningStrong »

Ron5 wrote: 06 Mar 2023, 13:42 Rumors are that Italy will be the latest customer for CV90 Mk IV. So yet another missed opportunity for Ajax.
I thought Italy were buying IFVs?

sol
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Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by sol »

Ron5 wrote: 07 Mar 2023, 13:19 So you don't think they even looked at Ajax?
Considering that Ajax is not an IFV and there is no IFV version, it is also not a proven solution probably not.
tomuk wrote: 07 Mar 2023, 22:31 If your going to buy new Leopard in the interim what is the point of the C1 upgrade? The last C1 were produced 20 years ago do Iveco\Leonardo still have any capability. With CR3 at least we have joined up with Rheinmetall so we have a toe in the Leopard replacement or could provide a hull for its turret if Nexter\KMW take the lead.
Probably money. Italy has 200 active C1 tanks, but only 125 will be upgraded in the project that should cost 980 million euros which will extend their service till 2035. Upgrade would include
  • Upgraded IVECO V12 MTCA with common-rail injection and 1,500 hp (1,103 kW)
  • Upgraded transmission
  • New tracks
  • New electronics and optronics (LOTHAR SD for the gunner, Multispectral ATTILA D for the commander)
  • Add-on armor and mine protection
  • Integration of SICCONA battlefield management system


The rest 75 hulls will be used for spare parts. Leo 2 should just cover for those that would not be upgraded to bring number back to 200+/-. From what I understand, Italy is waiting for the next generation tank, like MGCS (there are some suggestions that Italy is interested in joining the project) to replace their tank fleet from 2035. Replacing whole fleet with Leo 2A7 would probably be to expansive and would definitely go way over the budget for C1 modernisation. This way they have more options open to them.

Eventually this could also be a chance for the UK. If MGCS failed to provide, UK could find partners in Europe for joint development of the next generation tank that would replace CR3. It would be a good thing is RBLS to have some projects in plan after CR3 upgrade is done.

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Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by Ron5 »

RunningStrong wrote: 07 Mar 2023, 22:34
Ron5 wrote: 06 Mar 2023, 13:42 Rumors are that Italy will be the latest customer for CV90 Mk IV. So yet another missed opportunity for Ajax.
I thought Italy were buying IFVs?
Potato pohtahtoe.

sol
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Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by sol »

Payment to GD will be resumed with new delivery schedule
  • IOC July and December 2025
  • FOC between October 2028 and September 2029.

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Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

Post by tomuk »

sol wrote: 20 Mar 2023, 15:00
  • FOC between October 2028 and September 2029.
By which point all the super duper revolutionary digital kit will be obsolete so they will all need an MLU.

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Re: Ajax Armoured Vehicles (British Army)

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