Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
SW1
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SW1 »

Ron5 wrote: 05 Mar 2023, 17:26
SW1 wrote: 05 Mar 2023, 15:19 Absolutely the last thing you want to do it is start adding exquisite requirements on the platform, it’s what drives increased thru life costs, especially weapons integration costs.

Make the weapons do the hard bits and keep the platform “simple”
What?? So build a bunch more Hawker Hunters and put Meteor on them?

Dumbest comment of the week.
Your usual idiot take I see

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Spitfire9 wrote: 05 Mar 2023, 12:21In particular I see India as a possible buyer because I can see its 5G AMCA project never reaching its Mk2 stage due to lack of a suitable engine being available. The plan is for the IAF to receive 40 underpowered AMCA Mk1 (98kN engines instead of the 110kN the design requires), to be followed by 80 AMCA Mk2 powered by 110kN engines. India cannot build fast jet engines. I suspect that India will not fund the design of a 110kN engine by a foreign OEM and will be looking for a foreign 5G or 6G supplier in a few years.
By the time GCAP moves to induction stage, India will have a defense budget of over $250 billion. Any one who is not clinically insane would want to be a part of that. Especially given the potential for a huge order to replace the Su30 and the Mig29 fleets.

The big challenge is making a sale off the shelf and not getting them involved in the development. Also, the antagonistic relations that exist between Italy-India and Sweden-India are a big drag on the hopes of making such a sale. It would have been ideal if this was just a clean development between UK and Japan with India being a committed off the shelf customer. As things stand they will probably end up buying the American export variant or maybe the FCAS if the French can minimise the project dependence on Germany.

Jake1992 wrote: 05 Mar 2023, 16:55The security risk from the wests stand point is with them sharing the tech of what would be our new main line fighter with the likes of Russia to suit there own needs, like you said India doesn’t give 2 hoots about us so once they’ve got the aircraft why would they care about screwing us over after.
This is a somewhat childish concern. These jets will have very advanced monitoring due to their connected nature and the operators would require constant supply of spares throughout the life cycle. The OEMs can ground the entire fleet through lack of spares in a matter of a couple of years.
The Russians will have to offer them something mind boggling for them to expose their front line jets at the risk of the entire fleet being grounded. Not to mention the huge risk they face if the Russians leak that info to the chinese, who their jets are primarily pointed at.
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Gtal
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Gtal »

ThreeHeadedLion wrote: 05 Mar 2023, 23:04
Spitfire9 wrote: 05 Mar 2023, 12:21In particular I see India as a possible buyer because I can see its 5G AMCA project never reaching its Mk2 stage due to lack of a suitable engine being available. The plan is for the IAF to receive 40 underpowered AMCA Mk1 (98kN engines instead of the 110kN the design requires), to be followed by 80 AMCA Mk2 powered by 110kN engines. India cannot build fast jet engines. I suspect that India will not fund the design of a 110kN engine by a foreign OEM and will be looking for a foreign 5G or 6G supplier in a few years.
By the time GCAP moves to induction stage, India will have a defense budget of over $250 billion. Any one who is not clinically insane would want to be a part of that. Especially given the potential for a huge order to replace the Su30 and the Mig29 fleets.

The big challenge is making a sale off the shelf and not getting them involved in the development. Also, the antagonistic relations that exist between Italy-India and Sweden-India are a big drag on the hopes of making such a sale. It would have been ideal if this was just a clean development between UK and Japan with India being a committed off the shelf customer. As things stand they will probably end up buying the American export variant or maybe the FCAS if the French can minimise the project dependence on Germany.

Jake1992 wrote: 05 Mar 2023, 16:55The security risk from the wests stand point is with them sharing the tech of what would be our new main line fighter with the likes of Russia to suit there own needs, like you said India doesn’t give 2 hoots about us so once they’ve got the aircraft why would they care about screwing us over after.
This is a somewhat childish concern. These jets will have very advanced monitoring due to their connected nature and the operators would require constant supply of spares throughout the life cycle. The OEMs can ground the entire fleet through lack of spares in a matter of a couple of years.
The Russians will have to offer them something mind boggling for them to expose their front line jets at the risk of the entire fleet being grounded. Not to mention the huge risk they face if the Russians leak that info to the chinese, who their jets are primarily pointed at.

That's a weird logic,
India wants freedom of action, which they don't get under US ITAR.
That is why they buy French and Russian stuff.

FCAS will be completely ITAR free and provide them operational independence.

It's just that they might not get to buy any more of them after they go on a vicious warcrime spree and/or perpetrate large scale crimes against humanity like the Saudis.


By the way, this ridiculous hipocracy of the West, but especially the US, proavtively supporting a repressive fundamentalist Dictator in his genocidal bombing and blockading of his neighbour, is why no one outside of Nato and US Vassals takes the outrage feigned on Ukraine serious today..

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Gtal wrote: 05 Mar 2023, 23:49
ThreeHeadedLion wrote: 05 Mar 2023, 23:04
Spitfire9 wrote: 05 Mar 2023, 12:21In particular I see India as a possible buyer because I can see its 5G AMCA project never reaching its Mk2 stage due to lack of a suitable engine being available. The plan is for the IAF to receive 40 underpowered AMCA Mk1 (98kN engines instead of the 110kN the design requires), to be followed by 80 AMCA Mk2 powered by 110kN engines. India cannot build fast jet engines. I suspect that India will not fund the design of a 110kN engine by a foreign OEM and will be looking for a foreign 5G or 6G supplier in a few years.
By the time GCAP moves to induction stage, India will have a defense budget of over $250 billion. Any one who is not clinically insane would want to be a part of that. Especially given the potential for a huge order to replace the Su30 and the Mig29 fleets.

The big challenge is making a sale off the shelf and not getting them involved in the development. Also, the antagonistic relations that exist between Italy-India and Sweden-India are a big drag on the hopes of making such a sale. It would have been ideal if this was just a clean development between UK and Japan with India being a committed off the shelf customer. As things stand they will probably end up buying the American export variant or maybe the FCAS if the French can minimise the project dependence on Germany.

Jake1992 wrote: 05 Mar 2023, 16:55The security risk from the wests stand point is with them sharing the tech of what would be our new main line fighter with the likes of Russia to suit there own needs, like you said India doesn’t give 2 hoots about us so once they’ve got the aircraft why would they care about screwing us over after.
This is a somewhat childish concern. These jets will have very advanced monitoring due to their connected nature and the operators would require constant supply of spares throughout the life cycle. The OEMs can ground the entire fleet through lack of spares in a matter of a couple of years.
The Russians will have to offer them something mind boggling for them to expose their front line jets at the risk of the entire fleet being grounded. Not to mention the huge risk they face if the Russians leak that info to the chinese, who their jets are primarily pointed at.

That's a weird logic,
India wants freedom of action, which they don't get under US ITAR.
That is why they buy French and Russian stuff.

FCAS will be completely ITAR free and provide them operational independence.

It's just that they might not get to buy any more of them after they go on a vicious warcrime spree and/or perpetrate large scale crimes against humanity like the Saudis.


By the way, this ridiculous hipocracy of the West, but especially the US, proavtively supporting a repressive fundamentalist Dictator in his genocidal bombing and blockading of his neighbour, is why no one outside of Nato and US Vassals takes the outrage feigned on Ukraine serious today..
The Saudis might have a' questionable' record, but they have an excess of folding money that will lead to a second batch of Thypoon and a significant investment in Tempest.

Is it right, well, probably not from a moral perspective, but in WW2 we supported Stalin to the hilt ( my enemies enemy is my friend) and he killed millions!

Always been the same....

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Ron5 »

SW1 wrote: 05 Mar 2023, 17:48
Ron5 wrote: 05 Mar 2023, 17:26
SW1 wrote: 05 Mar 2023, 15:19 Absolutely the last thing you want to do it is start adding exquisite requirements on the platform, it’s what drives increased thru life costs, especially weapons integration costs.

Make the weapons do the hard bits and keep the platform “simple”
What?? So build a bunch more Hawker Hunters and put Meteor on them?

Dumbest comment of the week.
Your usual idiot take I see
Luckily for NATO, Britain, France, Germany, Italy & the US are totally going against your advice.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Gtal wrote: 05 Mar 2023, 23:49 FCAS will be completely ITAR free and provide them operational independence.
GCAP is also going to be ITAR free...

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Timmymagic wrote: 06 Mar 2023, 16:05
Gtal wrote: 05 Mar 2023, 23:49 FCAS will be completely ITAR free and provide them operational independence.
GCAP is also going to be ITAR free...
Is the UK ITAR-free? In my estimation the 'special relationship' entails the UK doing as the US wants when the two countries have differing views.. Would that extend to the UK trying to impose the US' will on other GCAP partners, though? For example, the UK blocking GCAP supply or spares and services to a country that had fallen out of favour with the US?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Timmymagic »

Spitfire9 wrote: 06 Mar 2023, 21:02 Is the UK ITAR-free?
Well the UK is a country...

The UK has specifically made all of its air weapons ITAR free in recent years, removing any US components, and all weapons developed in the future will be ITAR free...that should give you an idea of the UK's official position on the ITAR regulations...
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Timmymagic wrote: 06 Mar 2023, 21:54Well the UK is a country...
The UK is not a country, it's a Sovereign State containing four constituent nations.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Glad we got that cleared up.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/ac ... 27.article

>> All is "well" in the FCAS programme ..
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

It will be really interesting if the Spanish buy F35.

I'll put money on it, FCAS will eventually go ahead as basically french only, from about 2045, which they'll subsequently flog to India

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SD67 wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 12:44 It will be really interesting if the Spanish buy F35.

I'll put money on it, FCAS will eventually go ahead as basically french only, from about 2045, which they'll subsequently flog to India
Agree - i think that the French will "pump" Germany and France for money for as long as they can get away with it until it all falls apart..

By then - Tempest will be ready and the Germans and Spanish can buy Tempest "off the shelf" :clap:

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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TheLoneRanger wrote: 10 Mar 2023, 12:24 https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/ac ... 27.article

>> All is "well" in the FCAS programme ..
Same old, the French want their cake and eat it as ever... And get someone else to pay for it.

I can see the French eventually going for a modified Rafael in a sort of Gen 4+++ guise.

FCAS will eventually fail due to French intransigence and German penny pinching and caveats on exports etc...

Spain can go Tempest or simply go for F35 off the shelf...
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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I think that Germany should have foreseen that it might not be happy with its role in FCAS and should have clarified red line sticking points with France right at the start before investing in FCAS. If it could not, it could have looked at what involvement it could negotiate with Tempest instead. I suspect that the political leadership of France and Germany wanted to see a Franco-German programme launched and focused on that more than on an acceptable breakdown between the industries of the two countries.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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As always, amused by how the Merkel government shut down the BAE-Airbus merger (before the Brexit vote) that would have guaranteed a European aerospace giant which would have been immune from Dassault's tradition of threats and bullying.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Personally don’t think civil and military aircraft sit naturally in the same corporation, it’s like the Ferrari F1 team owning an HGV manufacturer.

If the French go it alone then Airbus will be out of fast jet business just as BAE and SAAB are long out of civilian air.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SD67 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 18:48 Personally don’t think civil and military aircraft sit naturally in the same corporation, it’s like the Ferrari F1 team owning an HGV manufacturer.

If the French go it alone then Airbus will be out of fast jet business just as BAE and SAAB are long out of civilian air.
Not sure I agree with that. F1 cars are bespoke prototypes. The same can’t be said with aircraft, numbers of military jets and certain airliners are the same. The skill sets in the design and production are largely similar, suppliers and certification of product largely the same for civil and military aircraft.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SW1 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 20:10
SD67 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 18:48 Personally don’t think civil and military aircraft sit naturally in the same corporation, it’s like the Ferrari F1 team owning an HGV manufacturer.

If the French go it alone then Airbus will be out of fast jet business just as BAE and SAAB are long out of civilian air.
Not sure I agree with that. F1 cars are bespoke prototypes. The same can’t be said with aircraft, numbers of military jets and certain airliners are the same. The skill sets in the design and production are largely similar, suppliers and certification of product largely the same for civil and military aircraft.
Airbus build 1000 a year, they sell to commercial customers based on fuel efficiency ie cost / mile. Performance hasn’t changed in 50 years. A320 has been in production since 1986, first real change was NEO in 2014. So 30 years basically pumping out the same product. Tolouse is set up like a truck factory just grinding down on hours / unit. Apart from 787 plus the A350 wing they’re all still made of metal. There’s no stealth, electronic warfare bleeding edge powerplants, classified tech exotic materials, optional manning or directed energy. Maybe Ferrari F1 is an exaggeration but these industries are diverging I also doubt Boeing will build another fighter, T7 is a SAAB

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SD67 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 20:28
SW1 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 20:10
SD67 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 18:48 Personally don’t think civil and military aircraft sit naturally in the same corporation, it’s like the Ferrari F1 team owning an HGV manufacturer.

If the French go it alone then Airbus will be out of fast jet business just as BAE and SAAB are long out of civilian air.
Not sure I agree with that. F1 cars are bespoke prototypes. The same can’t be said with aircraft, numbers of military jets and certain airliners are the same. The skill sets in the design and production are largely similar, suppliers and certification of product largely the same for civil and military aircraft.
Airbus build 1000 a year, they sell to commercial customers based on fuel efficiency ie cost / mile. Performance hasn’t changed in 50 years. A320 has been in production since 1986, first real change was NEO in 2014. So 30 years basically pumping out the same product. Tolouse is set up like a truck factory just grinding down on hours / unit. Apart from 787 plus the A350 wing they’re all still made of metal. There’s no stealth, electronic warfare bleeding edge powerplants, classified tech exotic materials, optional manning or directed energy. Maybe Ferrari F1 is an exaggeration but these industries are diverging I also doubt Boeing will build another fighter, T7 is a SAAB
The a400m a350 and a220 are all composite wings. The power plants on a350 are cutting edge. The design of composite structure on a civil airliners and a military one are very similar I’ve done both. A350f is being looked at for single pilot operations and the current auto land function for very poor visibility is as close to optionally manned tech as you get.

A320 it’s built in 4 locations it is automated and if you wish to compare it to something f35 production is done somewhat similarly. Airbus production of widebodies are 2.5 and 6 a month respectively for a330 and a350 very comparable to military production rates.

RR design teams move between their miltary and civil divisions regularly and a lot of the systems and tech especially exotic materials are found on both engines. Electronic warfare are not done by aircraft primes by and large they’re bought and integrated. Airbus has done that on a330mrtt and a400m.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Ok, I look forward to Airbus launching its own fighter project then without any help from Dassault, they have so many transferable skills. And one of those A320 production lines is in China - any conflict of interest there? Yes people move around. I knew a fellow who moved from building Ford Falcons in Broadmeadows to the Jag F1 team. Still rather different businesses tho

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SD67 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 18:48 Personally don’t think civil and military aircraft sit naturally in the same corporation, it’s like the Ferrari F1 team owning an HGV manufacturer.
Exor, the investment company of the Agnelli family, that controls Ferrari also control CNH who make tractors and construction equipment and IVECO who make HGVs and busses plus they still have one of the larger stakes in Stellantis who make a large number of much more mundane cars than a Ferrari.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Spitfire9 »

tomuk wrote: 14 Mar 2023, 01:05
SD67 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 18:48 Personally don’t think civil and military aircraft sit naturally in the same corporation, it’s like the Ferrari F1 team owning an HGV manufacturer.
Exor, the investment company of the Agnelli family, that controls Ferrari also control CNH who make tractors and construction equipment and IVECO who make HGVs and busses plus they still have one of the larger stakes in Stellantis who make a large number of much more mundane cars than a Ferrari.
Reminds me that Lamborghini had experience in making tractors but no experience in making cars. The first car they made eclipsed anything Ferrari made.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Spitfire9 wrote: 14 Mar 2023, 09:39Reminds me that Lamborghini had experience in making tractors but no experience in making cars. The first car they made eclipsed anything Ferrari made.
You mean THIS one?
Factory original 1968 Lamborghini Miura P400, chassis number 3586, finished in Arancio Miura (Miura Orange) with a fully original Pelle Bianco leather interior. Completed for delivery on 2nd July 1968 and just 5 owners from new.
Btw, the actual Miura which was destroyed by the Mafia in this film was a written-off Miura, standing in for the first one, which still exists and is in mint condition, although it was repainted a bright orange by a subsequent owner.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SD67 wrote: 14 Mar 2023, 01:04 .. . And one of those A320 production lines is in China - any conflict of interest there?
Didn't Boeing have a 737 production line in China?

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