Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

SD67 wrote: 22 Feb 2023, 13:15 The other one is Algeria - a pity France cannot flex some of their old colonial influence....lease them some Rafale
Algeria is a lost cause, too much of their kit is Russian based for them to be messing around with their main supplier.

Keeping SU-24 and 25 in the air is also a job that needs to be worked on....Georgia could be useful in that regard, particularly for SU-25, but its allegiance at present is a little confusing to say the least...

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

Problems with quoting in replies...

In Response to Spitfire...

The Russian's have minimal capability against airfields. They have neither the doctrine, equipment or weapons. They made some half-assed attacks against some Ukrainian airfields in Feb 2022 and have since given up. The Ukrainian's operate from airbases...no real indications that they have ever gone to dispersed ops. And you can't sustain distributed ops for any real length of time....don't fall for the Saab marketing...they're just as tied to bases as anything else. The entire Swedish BAS90 system is tied to main bases....with very close by alternate strips, in very small quantities...same with F-35B. Without a main base to get support from, or infrastructure out of range from the enemy they are tied to main bases/facilities.

Typhoon might be exceptionally capable at high altitude, but its also very good at low level. Basically unless its going low and very slow it will outperform anything else...not sure where the idea it can't operate well at low level has come from, its a new myth that has only appeared recently....

Gripen C has a potential part to play, but only at the low end of any fighter mix. It's a nice jet, don't get me wrong, but its not a high performer by any means. You simply can't get past the fact it is small and not particularly powerful. Hang any stores on it (and it has no internal or conformal carriage) and its performance including range, speed and manoeverability drop like a stone...there's a reason why the only people who buy it are either the makers, countries needing a cheap air policing aircraft, or have no real threat like Brazil. Whenever it has been entered into a competition for an air force who reasonably might be required to actually use it...it loses, every single time. For good reason.

In response to SD67

Poland have already discretely transferred some MiG-29 to Ukraine as 'parts', and a large number of ex-Soviet missiles. Slovakia is the most likely transferee. But there are also a significant number in the US and Moldova that could go, some flying the others as parts. If we can convince Bulgaria to part with theirs its likely that there are enough MiG-29 to keep Ukraine going for the duration at the current rate of attrition and use. There may be some in Romania and Hungary that can be parted out as well, but politics there might get in the way, plus availability.
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Phil Sayers »

Poland's upgraded MiG-29s (and those of a few other countries) are an obvious short-term solution and indeed remain the topic of a very long running saga dating back pretty much a year. F-16s or Gripens would be the obvious long term solution but politics and practicality heavily count against anything being ready any time soon (or maybe ever).

I reiterate that there is an interim step that we could take which is to start making urgent enquiries about buying back armed Hawk variants, the very aircraft we will presumably be training pilots and ground crew on. I wouldn't think it overly difficult to buy circa 40 surplus Hawks from around the world (to varying degrees already having a secondary combat role) and have a rapid upgrade programme that allows the use of Brimstone and Asraam. Hawks equipped with a pair of AAM on wingtips and either 2 x triple racks for Brimstone or 2 x Paveway under the wings would be no joke at all but may initially be underestimated by Russia. Even better would be if we could persuade any of Indonesia, Malaysia or Oman to part with their Hawk 200s as they are proper light combat aircraft with an F-16 radar, SDB1 and Amraam.

Politics would be far less of a problem as, while we would obviously need to keep allies on board, it would largely be a bilateral programme with Ukraine and Hawks would not be seen in the same provocative light as e.g Typhoons. Timescale would be a major plus; not inconceivable that pulling out all the stops and paying over the odds could have Western aircraft over Ukraine within six months. I cannot see any other way to achieve that.

The only real drawback I can see is likely high attrition rates but I fear that even advanced fast jets would suffer in that AD environment.
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

When people are suggesting planes for Ukraine from turboprop trainers or small jets this is maybe a helpful graphic as no aar is available

https://www.mylifeelsewhere.com/country ... ed-kingdom

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Phil Sayers »

SW1 wrote: 22 Feb 2023, 19:04 When people are suggesting planes for Ukraine from turboprop trainers or small jets this is maybe a helpful graphic as no aar is available

https://www.mylifeelsewhere.com/country ... ed-kingdom
An important point no doubt but not sure it is a determinative one. If this graphic is correct Ukraine has three major airbases that are relatively close to the front line but not so close as to be under regular fire. Even if we went with a very conservative (IMO but I may be wrong) estimate of the possible combat radius of a Hawk armed as I suggested and called it 150 miles, Hawks operating from those airbases could easily manage a low level pass over the battlefield and be on more than just fumes when landing back home. That is only looking at major airbases - Hawks might be a more viable prospect operating out of smaller airbases or civilian airports than advanced types.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/jhtml/jf ... -bases.jpg|||

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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Phil Sayers wrote: 22 Feb 2023, 19:36
SW1 wrote: 22 Feb 2023, 19:04 When people are suggesting planes for Ukraine from turboprop trainers or small jets this is maybe a helpful graphic as no aar is available

https://www.mylifeelsewhere.com/country ... ed-kingdom
An important point no doubt but not sure it is a determinative one. If this graphic is correct Ukraine has three major airbases that are relatively close to the front line but not so close as to be under regular fire. Even if we went with a very conservative (IMO but I may be wrong) estimate of the possible combat radius of a Hawk armed as I suggested and called it 150 miles, Hawks operating from those airbases could easily manage a low level pass over the battlefield and be on more than just fumes when landing back home. That is only looking at major airbases - Hawks might be a more viable prospect operating out of smaller airbases or civilian airports than advanced types.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/jhtml/jf ... -bases.jpg|||
It's certainly an interesting idea....

I stand by my hypothetical PMC operated F16 force.

It would require a leap of faith, but such an independent business, with international pilots would be a solution
that Putin could rail against all he likes, but it would be a PMC contracted by Ukraine and one that could be mustered relatively quickly.

Even if it was strictly used for air defence, a force of 36 F16's would certainly dampen the spirits of the Russian Air force!

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

Phil Sayers wrote: 22 Feb 2023, 19:36
SW1 wrote: 22 Feb 2023, 19:04 When people are suggesting planes for Ukraine from turboprop trainers or small jets this is maybe a helpful graphic as no aar is available

https://www.mylifeelsewhere.com/country ... ed-kingdom
An important point no doubt but not sure it is a determinative one. If this graphic is correct Ukraine has three major airbases that are relatively close to the front line but not so close as to be under regular fire. Even if we went with a very conservative (IMO but I may be wrong) estimate of the possible combat radius of a Hawk armed as I suggested and called it 150 miles, Hawks operating from those airbases could easily manage a low level pass over the battlefield and be on more than just fumes when landing back home. That is only looking at major airbases - Hawks might be a more viable prospect operating out of smaller airbases or civilian airports than advanced types.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/jhtml/jf ... -bases.jpg|||
Well if you want an idea of comparison one of the typhoon design points was for it to hold a cap for a couple of hours at 100 nm range.

I suspect in combat you could change the hawk radius of action you quote to it range without much loiter time.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Phil Sayers »

SW1 wrote: 22 Feb 2023, 20:08
Well if you want an idea of comparison one of the typhoon design points was for it to hold a cap for a couple of hours at 100 nm range.

I suspect in combat you could change the hawk radius of action you quote to it range without much loiter time.
Agreed but I don't think it negates the point I made which was to estimate that one low level pass over the battlefield would be possible at least 150 miles away from the airbase the Hawk is operating from while leaving enough fuel to comfortably make it home again. I don't think hanging around any longer would be wise anyway in that AD environment but 2 x Hawks could fire 12 x Brimstone in that one pass.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Spitfire9 »

Phil Sayers wrote: 22 Feb 2023, 20:35
SW1 wrote: 22 Feb 2023, 20:08
Well if you want an idea of comparison one of the typhoon design points was for it to hold a cap for a couple of hours at 100 nm range.

I suspect in combat you could change the hawk radius of action you quote to it range without much loiter time.
Agreed but I don't think it negates the point I made which was to estimate that one low level pass over the battlefield would be possible at least 150 miles away from the airbase the Hawk is operating from while leaving enough fuel to comfortably make it home again. I don't think hanging around any longer would be wise anyway in that AD environment but 2 x Hawks could fire 12 x Brimstone in that one pass.
That 150 mile combat radius would be at what level - high (equalling very vulnerable to AD) or low?

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Phil Sayers »

Spitfire9 wrote: 22 Feb 2023, 21:59

That 150 mile combat radius would be at what level - high (equalling very vulnerable to AD) or low?
Sorry but I don't know enough about a Hawk's performance, fuel efficiency at different altitudes or aerodynamics in general to be properly able to answer the question. What I will say is that I would be surprised if a Hawk carrying a useful war-load of 2 x Asraam and 6 x Brimstone could not fly 120 miles at circa 5,000 feet (is it worth the extra fuel burn of climbing any higher over such short distances?), fly a further 30 miles at 500 feet, hit multiple pre-assigned targets in a single pass, fly a further 30 miles at 500 feet on the way back out and then climb back to 5,000 feet for the remaining 120 miles back home. I may well be completely wrong (and the actual detail is probably classified) but that does not seem an unreasonable expectation to me. If it is wrong that is probably because it is too conservative an estimate as to possible combat radius.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

Instead of Hawk the far easier (and cheaper) solution is L39....

L39 is the aircraft that the Ukrainian's have all flown in training. It's known to them and easily supportable.

Stick a flare dispenser on it and use it to fire rockets ballistically like the SU-25 do...cheap and easy.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by zavve »

Timmymagic wrote: 22 Feb 2023, 18:11 The entire Swedish BAS90 system is tied to main bases....with very close by alternate strips, in very small quantities
There are actually quite a lot of alternate airstrips for the Bas 90. Just go on a drive through Sweden and it's common to see some parts of the highways widened in order to land fighter jets. Go to Bas 90 on the wiki and there is a map of all the bases.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by topman »

I wonder how many can function as designed as opposed to on paper. The ones I've seen are near airbases, a short distance away rather than in the middle of nowhere.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

zavve wrote: 25 Feb 2023, 15:41 There are actually quite a lot of alternate airstrips for the Bas 90. Just go on a drive through Sweden and it's common to see some parts of the highways widened in order to land fighter jets. Go to Bas 90 on the wiki and there is a map of all the bases.
There's a grand total of 16...the majority never got built. Those highways were all close to main bases and were well known to the Soviets.

What people forget is that the UK had far greater deployment potential for the simple fact the entire island was/is covered with runways. We left WW2 with 1,000 airfields, and a significant number survived through the Cold War. Sweden didn't have that luxury. Most RAF bases had a nearby base that could be utilised as a satellite (Lindholme for Finningley for example)....hell we had colossal places like Elvington just lying around...

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

Looks like some more good news for BAE and Uk suppliers is on the way...remember they make over 40% by value of each Typhoon

Spain are, according to Airbus, going to sign in the next couple of months for an additional 25 Typhoon T4's. This is in addition to the 20 already ordered under Project Halcon. 17 Tranche 1 are already underway with an upgrade (don't get too excited though....its very limited and just adds some features that RAF Typhoon T1's have had for 10 years...).

If the second contract gets signed, and Airbus are very bullish, that partially answers the question of what replaces the 60 EF-18 and 12 AV-8B+ remaining, following the withdrawal of 20 x EF-18 for Project Halcon Typhoon in the future. Airbus are hoping that they can increase the number from 25 as well. Obviously the Spanish will need to order some F-35B at the very least though...suspect Airbus is trying to stop them ordering any F-35A as well..

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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So updating the list...changes in Red since last time...

This means that the order, and near certain order, books for Typhoon are fairly healthy...

Ordered or due to be... - On contract in Bold
28 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Germany under Project Quadriga

24 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Egypt - Not ordered yet but must be close
15+ x Typhoon EK to Germany - Now called EK instead of ECR. Airbus has said is unlikely that just 15 will be ordered.
20 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Spain under Project Halcon, to replace oldest EF-18
25 x Typhoon 4 to Spain under Project Halcon 2, to replace some of the remaining EF-18 (64 in total remaining, plus 13 AV-8B+).
Total - 112+ Typhoon, including new EK variant

Orders still being built...
28 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Kuwait
24 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Qatar
Total - 52 Typhoon

Potential Orders...in order of probability..
50 (up to) x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Germany to replace non-nuclear Tornado - Moved to potential as unclear what Germany is up to...the impact of inflation on the German budget increase has caused issues, still highly likely though..
48-72 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Saudi Arabia - still in the works allegedly, but very quiet.. - Added in 72 as increased buy has been mentioned. Large Saudi delegation recently at Warton as well...
25 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Spain - Potential for another 25 under a 'Project Halcon 4', probably won't happen though.
20+ x Typhoon Tranche 1 to Chile - Ex-RAF aircraft. Can't see it myself, but still rate it higher than Turkey.
24-48 x Typhoon to Turkey - Probably cobblers, 'sources' have said '2 Sqn's' of T1's Or 48 Tranche 3A.
12-24 x Typhoon to Malaysia - An ongoing saga... since the 2000's. The MRCA requirement. However, Malaysia has had issues with SU-30MKI reliability and their concerns will only increase post Ukraine war, FA-18D is also, generally, on the way out. They can't afford to be an orphan operator for long post 2030 with 8 a/c. Issues around EU palm oil ban, but the UK being out of the EU could help...either way its a slow burner...still serious finance issues. I think they're unlikely to go Russian or Chinese again, KF-21 a possibility after the recent TA-50 win for S.Korea in the LCA competition, that is mired in corruption allegations as usual..
Total - 179-239 x Typhoon* (both numbers include 20 to Chile as resale rather than new production, all new Turkish production and 50 to Germany)

*Please note this number is complicated due to potential resale of Tranche 1 Typhoon to 2 potential operators (both very unlikely though).

Removed
? x Typhoon Tranche 1 (second hand) to Serbia - a very distant possibility, probably no more than 12-16. Unlikely given current developments.
? x Typhoon Tranche 1 (second hand) to Indonesia - a distant possibility, probably no more than 12-16. These were the Austrian Typhoon Tranche 1. However, indications are that Austria intends to retain until 2030 and replace with F-35A (if the US will allow them...).

Realistically...
I think there will definitely be at least 160 new build Typhoon (excluding the Kuwaiti and Qatari ones that are already being built and delivered). But it could reasonably reach 240. Any more than that would be a massive bonus. All over to Airbus for the German orders, Leonardo for the Egyptian one and most of all BAE for the Saudi order...Hopefully we'll see some serious thought into either retaining Tranche 1 or gifting them to Ukraine in the medium term...

Also to note. All future deliveries of Typhoon from Project Quadriga onwards will be of Tranche 4 onwards. The Qatari and Kuwaiti Tranche 3's are the last ones.
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by mrclark303 »

Timmymagic wrote: 30 Mar 2023, 00:57 So updating the list...changes in Red since last time...

This means that the order, and near certain order, books for Typhoon are fairly healthy...

Ordered or due to be... - On contract in Bold
28 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Germany under Project Quadriga

24 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Egypt - Not ordered yet but must be close
15+ x Typhoon EK to Germany - Now called EK instead of ECR. Airbus has said is unlikely that just 15 will be ordered.
20 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Spain under Project Halcon, to replace oldest EF-18
25 x Typhoon 4 to Spain under Project Halcon 2, to replace some of the remaining EF-18 (64 in total remaining, plus 13 AV-8B+).
Total - 112+ Typhoon, including new EK variant

Orders still being built...
28 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Kuwait
24 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Qatar
Total - 52 Typhoon

Potential Orders...in order of probability..
50 (up to) x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Germany to replace non-nuclear Tornado - Moved to potential as unclear what Germany is up to...the impact of inflation on the German budget increase has caused issues, still highly likely though..
48-72 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Saudi Arabia - still in the works allegedly, but very quiet.. - Added in 72 as increased buy has been mentioned. Large Saudi delegation recently at Warton as well...
25 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Spain - Potential for another 25 under a 'Project Halcon 4', probably won't happen though.
20+ x Typhoon Tranche 1 to Chile - Ex-RAF aircraft. Can't see it myself, but still rate it higher than Turkey.
24-48 x Typhoon to Turkey - Probably cobblers, 'sources' have said '2 Sqn's' of T1's Or 48 Tranche 3A.
12-24 x Typhoon to Malaysia - An ongoing saga... since the 2000's. The MRCA requirement. However, Malaysia has had issues with SU-30MKI reliability and their concerns will only increase post Ukraine war, FA-18D is also, generally, on the way out. They can't afford to be an orphan operator for long post 2030 with 8 a/c. Issues around EU palm oil ban, but the UK being out of the EU could help...either way its a slow burner...still serious finance issues. I think they're unlikely to go Russian or Chinese again, KF-21 a possibility after the recent TA-50 win for S.Korea in the LCA competition, that is mired in corruption allegations as usual..
Total - 179-239 x Typhoon* (both numbers include 20 to Chile as resale rather than new production, all new Turkish production and 50 to Germany)

*Please note this number is complicated due to potential resale of Tranche 1 Typhoon to 2 potential operators (both very unlikely though).

Removed
? x Typhoon Tranche 1 (second hand) to Serbia - a very distant possibility, probably no more than 12-16. Unlikely given current developments.
? x Typhoon Tranche 1 (second hand) to Indonesia - a distant possibility, probably no more than 12-16. These were the Austrian Typhoon Tranche 1. However, indications are that Austria intends to retain until 2030 and replace with F-35A (if the US will allow them...).

Realistically...
I think there will definitely be at least 160 new build Typhoon (excluding the Kuwaiti and Qatari ones that are already being built and delivered). But it could reasonably reach 240. Any more than that would be a massive bonus. All over to Airbus for the German orders, Leonardo for the Egyptian one and most of all BAE for the Saudi order...Hopefully we'll see some serious thought into either retaining Tranche 1 or gifting them to Ukraine in the medium term...

Also to note. All future deliveries of Typhoon from Project Quadriga onwards will be of Tranche 4 onwards. The Qatari and Kuwaiti Tranche 3's are the last ones.
Thanks for taking the trouble to put that snapshot together, it makes an interesting read.

I would just add, I suspect Saudi Arabia visited Warton to examine project Tempest, the assembling demonstrator and the technology as they inch towards joining.

I think the delay in the tranche 2 Saudi Thypoon order is because they will shortly join as a partner and put an order in for 70 odd aircraft.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by SD67 »

I wonder how hard BAE are pushing on Typhoon in Saudi Arabia, it may be more like "this (Tempest) is what you REALLY want". Or it could be a small Typhoon purchase as a bridge, interesting times
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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mrclark303 wrote: 30 Mar 2023, 08:29 .. is because they (Saudi Arabia) will shortly join as a partner ..
No they won't.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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SD67 wrote: 30 Mar 2023, 14:42 I wonder how hard BAE are pushing on Typhoon in Saudi Arabia, it may be more like "this (Tempest) is what you REALLY want". Or it could be a small Typhoon purchase as a bridge, interesting times
The Israelis will be 'very jittery' about Saudi aquasision of an Aircraft in Tempests category.

An aircraft capable of penetrating their Air Defence Systems, very jittery indeed.

Such a purchase would likely bring in the Americans on Israel's bequest, with serious pressure to either ensure Saudi Arabia has a downgraded variant ( unacceptable to the Saudis, why should they) or preferably, not buy it at all.

It will rapidly square up into a bun fight that's for sure...

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Phil Sayers »

mrclark303 wrote: 30 Mar 2023, 15:39 The Israelis will be 'very jittery' about Saudi aquasision of an Aircraft in Tempests category.

An aircraft capable of penetrating their Air Defence Systems, very jittery indeed.

Such a purchase would likely bring in the Americans on Israel's bequest, with serious pressure to either ensure Saudi Arabia has a downgraded variant ( unacceptable to the Saudis, why should they) or preferably, not buy it at all.

It will rapidly square up into a bun fight that's for sure...
Not sure I agree that Israel would have that concern about a Saudi acquisition; think they would be more nervous if e.g Egypt wanted to join. Israel and the Saudis are in a de-facto contain Iran alliance and Israel will figure that the Saudis are far, far more likely to use such advanced jets for purposes that they approve of than they are likely to be used against them. The possibility of a coup by hardliners would be a concern I suppose but I think one placed below a desire for Riyadh to have effective means at their disposal vis a vis Tehran and in any event they would figure that a coup would result in BAE pulling the support plug thus reducing the effectiveness of the aircraft.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by SiVisPacemParaBellum »

Timmymagic wrote: 30 Mar 2023, 00:57 So updating the list...changes in Red since last time...

This means that the order, and near certain order, books for Typhoon are fairly healthy...

Ordered or due to be... - On contract in Bold
28 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Germany under Project Quadriga

24 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Egypt - Not ordered yet but must be close
15+ x Typhoon EK to Germany - Now called EK instead of ECR. Airbus has said is unlikely that just 15 will be ordered.
20 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Spain under Project Halcon, to replace oldest EF-18
25 x Typhoon 4 to Spain under Project Halcon 2, to replace some of the remaining EF-18 (64 in total remaining, plus 13 AV-8B+).
Total - 112+ Typhoon, including new EK variant

Orders still being built...
28 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Kuwait
24 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Qatar
Total - 52 Typhoon

Potential Orders...in order of probability..
50 (up to) x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Germany to replace non-nuclear Tornado - Moved to potential as unclear what Germany is up to...the impact of inflation on the German budget increase has caused issues, still highly likely though..
48-72 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Saudi Arabia - still in the works allegedly, but very quiet.. - Added in 72 as increased buy has been mentioned. Large Saudi delegation recently at Warton as well...
25 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Spain - Potential for another 25 under a 'Project Halcon 4', probably won't happen though.
20+ x Typhoon Tranche 1 to Chile - Ex-RAF aircraft. Can't see it myself, but still rate it higher than Turkey.
24-48 x Typhoon to Turkey - Probably cobblers, 'sources' have said '2 Sqn's' of T1's Or 48 Tranche 3A.
12-24 x Typhoon to Malaysia - An ongoing saga... since the 2000's. The MRCA requirement. However, Malaysia has had issues with SU-30MKI reliability and their concerns will only increase post Ukraine war, FA-18D is also, generally, on the way out. They can't afford to be an orphan operator for long post 2030 with 8 a/c. Issues around EU palm oil ban, but the UK being out of the EU could help...either way its a slow burner...still serious finance issues. I think they're unlikely to go Russian or Chinese again, KF-21 a possibility after the recent TA-50 win for S.Korea in the LCA competition, that is mired in corruption allegations as usual..
Total - 179-239 x Typhoon* (both numbers include 20 to Chile as resale rather than new production, all new Turkish production and 50 to Germany)

*Please note this number is complicated due to potential resale of Tranche 1 Typhoon to 2 potential operators (both very unlikely though).

Removed
? x Typhoon Tranche 1 (second hand) to Serbia - a very distant possibility, probably no more than 12-16. Unlikely given current developments.
? x Typhoon Tranche 1 (second hand) to Indonesia - a distant possibility, probably no more than 12-16. These were the Austrian Typhoon Tranche 1. However, indications are that Austria intends to retain until 2030 and replace with F-35A (if the US will allow them...).

Realistically...
I think there will definitely be at least 160 new build Typhoon (excluding the Kuwaiti and Qatari ones that are already being built and delivered). But it could reasonably reach 240. Any more than that would be a massive bonus. All over to Airbus for the German orders, Leonardo for the Egyptian one and most of all BAE for the Saudi order...Hopefully we'll see some serious thought into either retaining Tranche 1 or gifting them to Ukraine in the medium term...

Also to note. All future deliveries of Typhoon from Project Quadriga onwards will be of Tranche 4 onwards. The Qatari and Kuwaiti Tranche 3's are the last ones.
Germany has ordered 38 (not 28) project Quadrigas. 15 out of those 38 will be converted to an ECR-Version (Pods). There'll be another Batch (Tranche 5) consisting of additional units + 15 additional ECR Typhoons which' ll comparable to the Growler. So you should expect another 70-80 Typhoons being ordered.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by SD67 »

mrclark303 wrote: 30 Mar 2023, 15:39
SD67 wrote: 30 Mar 2023, 14:42 I wonder how hard BAE are pushing on Typhoon in Saudi Arabia, it may be more like "this (Tempest) is what you REALLY want". Or it could be a small Typhoon purchase as a bridge, interesting times
The Israelis will be 'very jittery' about Saudi aquasision of an Aircraft in Tempests category.

An aircraft capable of penetrating their Air Defence Systems, very jittery indeed.

Such a purchase would likely bring in the Americans on Israel's bequest, with serious pressure to either ensure Saudi Arabia has a downgraded variant ( unacceptable to the Saudis, why should they) or preferably, not buy it at all.

It will rapidly square up into a bun fight that's for sure...
Sceptical on this. The Saudis and Israelis have been in a de facto anti-Iran Alliance for going on 30years. The original Al Yamanah deal was because of AIPAC blocking F15s.

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mrclark303
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by mrclark303 »

SD67 wrote: 30 Mar 2023, 16:31
mrclark303 wrote: 30 Mar 2023, 15:39
SD67 wrote: 30 Mar 2023, 14:42 I wonder how hard BAE are pushing on Typhoon in Saudi Arabia, it may be more like "this (Tempest) is what you REALLY want". Or it could be a small Typhoon purchase as a bridge, interesting times
The Israelis will be 'very jittery' about Saudi aquasision of an Aircraft in Tempests category.

An aircraft capable of penetrating their Air Defence Systems, very jittery indeed.

Such a purchase would likely bring in the Americans on Israel's bequest, with serious pressure to either ensure Saudi Arabia has a downgraded variant ( unacceptable to the Saudis, why should they) or preferably, not buy it at all.

It will rapidly square up into a bun fight that's for sure...
Sceptical on this. The Saudis and Israelis have been in a de facto anti-Iran Alliance for going on 30years. The original Al Yamanah deal was because of AIPAC blocking F15s.
You might well be right, however, until a theoretical Saudi buy (of the still paper airplane) Tempest, they have always had the edge, plus I am sure US assurances of the digital plug being pulled if things in Saudi Arabia suddenly went south.

Now, Tempest promises to be F35's bigger better brother, on steroids with serious next generation capabilities....

It's also beyond Uncle Sam's influence to 'effect' so it will be seen on a different light politically.

inch
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by inch »

The only thing is with GCAP in future,I'm sure the Americans will try to exert pressure on GCAP partners in other ways to curtail sale's to countries that the US doesn't like ,so could limit GCAP sales ,ie if you sell GCAP to this country we will not supply you with parts for other programs like F35b which you still operating,ie US still blackmail GCAP partners to US advantage and sales for their products
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