FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

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TheLoneRanger
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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Post by TheLoneRanger »

Poland has already received its first batch of Korean Tanks and Howitzers !!!!!!

https://notesfrompoland.com/2022/12/06/ ... in-poland/
Poland has received the first delivery of tanks and howitzers it purchased earlier this year as part of a series of large arms contracts with South Korea. The equipment was welcomed in a ceremony at the port of Gdynia by President Andrzej Duda and defence minister Mariusz Błaszczak.
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“We want peace, so we are preparing for war,” said Błaszczak today, as he welcomed the first ten tanks and 24 howitzers to arrive. “We are strengthening by equipping the army with modern, state-of-the-art weapons…This gives the Polish army the tools to effectively deter the aggressor.”


Under its agreement with Seoul, Poland aims to eventually have 1,000 K2 tanks and 672 K9 howitzers, including “polonised” versions produced in Poland, reports Business Insider Polska. In total, Poland’s arms purchases from South Korea this year have reached $12.3 billion.
Now - that is quick .... an emergency order from the UK will be filled very quickly aswell if we go down the same route as Poland.

They are getting alot of capability for $12.3 billion - the UK will spend that getting it "customised to its requirements" and then end up buying only three(ergo - Gold plating ).. ...

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Post by sol »

TheLoneRanger wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 21:09 Now - that is quick .... an emergency order from the UK will be filled very quickly aswell if we go down the same route as Poland.
They arrived that quick because they were planned to be delivered to the ROK Army but where instead redirected to Poland. So they were already produced when contract was signed.
TheLoneRanger wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 21:09 They are getting alot of capability for $12.3 billion - the UK will spend that getting it "customised to its requirements" and then end up buying only three(ergo - Gold plating ).. ...
All the 180 K2 tanks, will be in Korean configuration, no Polish tech will be installed. If they want to do something about it, it should be done in Poland and pay additionally. Of course UK would like their own customized equipment instead. They are not cheap either, 180 K2 tanks for $3.43 billions. And for first batch, Polish industry will not benefit at all, that will come with setting production for the rest of fleet. So just ordering K2, will be costly (more than current CR3 upgrade), with zero benefit for UK, if it want it fast. If it want production, it would take much more time to deliver. Not to mention that without setting production, supply chain, at least for early time will be straight from ROK, so long way from UK.
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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

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I know Ukraine need tanks now but maybe NATO should be looking to upgrade a load of T-72's with say a John Cockerill 120mm XC8 turret and active armour to give better fire on the move and NATO 120mm rounds

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

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Tempest414 wrote: 21 Jan 2023, 10:24 I know Ukraine need tanks now but maybe NATO should be looking to upgrade a load of T-72's with say a John Cockerill 120mm XC8 turret and active armour to give better fire on the move and NATO 120mm rounds
If there are T-72 to be sent, it would be far better and quicker to just send it to Czech Republic to be upgraded to T-72EA standard, like 90 tanks which modernisation is paid for by US and Dutch. JC 120mm turret would be better used to upgrade for example tanks like Leo 1. But, keep in mind, this would cost more and it would take longer as all turrets and guns would need to be new built. It could be planned for 2024-25, but probably not this year.

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

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India has over 2000 t72 tanks in inventory if a deal could be done. Likewise Turkey a lot of older American tanks if you could persuade america to allow tanks to be sent that is.

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

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SW1 wrote: 21 Jan 2023, 12:24 India has over 2000 t72 tanks in inventory if a deal could be done. Likewise Turkey a lot of older American tanks if you could persuade america to allow tanks to be sent that is.
It is highly unlikely that India would either donate or sell its tanks, or any heavy equipment to Ukraine. They are avoiding to openly criticize Russia, probably due close ties with Russia military industry, and are buying its oil. So I doubt it would do anything to antagonise Russia and giving tanks to Ukraine would surly do just that. Funnily Pakistan is selling lot of ammo to Ukraine.

Similarly, it is not very likely that either Greek or Turkey, which both have hundreds of T-60M3TTS tanks, would be eager to part with them, as both are looking on the other side as far more threatening than Russia. It does not help that Turkey is currently a dictatorship and not very reliable partner in anything. I don't think US would oppose sending M-60 tank to Ukraine tho, but there is not many which realistically could be sent, not to mention that M-60 is not exactly opposition to T-72 and T-80.

What realistically could be sent are mostly T-72 which are still in storage of NATO countries, although those could be mostly exhausted. Poland is still having some 280 PT-91a and some T-72a, and while some claims that it already send PT-91 tanks to Ukraine, none was confirmed, either by photo or officially, which means it is probably not true. But Poland already gave some 250 tanks, and it seems like it will give rest of T-72s but they already gave so much. Slovenia has 51 M-84 and Croatia around 70. But President of Croatia is not supporting Ukraine or NATO at all, and have sympathetic views to Russia, so if decision to sell or send those tanks to Ukraine needs his signature, it would not happen. It is similar with Bosnia and Herzegovina, which has some 50 M-84 is storage, but as Serb politicians in the government are probably the biggest fans of Putin in the World, there is no chance those would be given willingly. Hungary has 164 T-72, but again Orban would never allow them to be sent.

Outside Europe, maybe Morocco could be convinced to part with theirs 158 T-72, as they already donated some spare parts for them to Ukraine, but beside I don't see who else could be realistically expected to give weapons when so many of those potential donors have close ties with Russia military industry.

So there is still lot of tanks in Europe that potentially could be sent, but realistically they will not, mostly due politics.

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Post by Phil Sayers »

I have read a suggestion that we are talking with Jordan about acquiring their Challenger 1 variant as they are in the process of retiring it. If that could be done it would amount to potentially several hundred fairly decent MBTs being transferred to Ukraine with presumably large quantities of spare parts and ammunition that Jordan will no longer need.

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

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Tempest414 wrote: 21 Jan 2023, 10:24 maybe NATO should be looking to upgrade a load of T-72's with say a John Cockerill 120mm XC8 turret
Might it not be better to do that with Leo 1 hulls
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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

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SW1 wrote: 21 Jan 2023, 12:24 India has over 2000 t72 tanks in inventory if a deal could be done.
And India has two massive belligerent neighbours next door. I can understand why they're not donating hardware to Ukraine.

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Post by TheLoneRanger »

Phil Sayers wrote: 21 Jan 2023, 15:04 I have read a suggestion that we are talking with Jordan about acquiring their Challenger 1 variant as they are in the process of retiring it. If that could be done it would amount to potentially several hundred fairly decent MBTs being transferred to Ukraine with presumably large quantities of spare parts and ammunition that Jordan will no longer need.
No talks are ongoing - there was a Telegraph article as a possible idea but not much more than that.

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

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Phil Sayers wrote: 21 Jan 2023, 15:04 I have read a suggestion that we are talking with Jordan about acquiring their Challenger 1 variant as they are in the process of retiring it. If that could be done it would amount to potentially several hundred fairly decent MBTs being transferred to Ukraine with presumably large quantities of spare parts and ammunition that Jordan will no longer need.
It is questionable in what state are those tanks. While retiring CR1, Jordan is keeping much older M-60s in service which could suggest that servicing of CR1 has become to expensive or that tanks are not in very good condition.

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

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RunningStrong wrote: 21 Jan 2023, 15:41
SW1 wrote: 21 Jan 2023, 12:24 India has over 2000 t72 tanks in inventory if a deal could be done.
And India has two massive belligerent neighbours next door. I can understand why they're not donating hardware to Ukraine.
It does, but america has several thousand Abrams in storage so if they are unwilling to send them the Ukraine could a swap deal be done with India to feed t72s to Ukraine. After all india is the democratic counterweight to China

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

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SW1 wrote: 21 Jan 2023, 16:16 It does, but america has several thousand Abrams in storage so if they are unwilling to send them the Ukraine could a swap deal be done with India to feed t72s to Ukraine. After all india is the democratic counterweight to China
USA has some 2000 Abrams in storage, and there is very little chance to use them in tank swap. After all, USA didn't swap tanks with Poland, but sold them their tanks instead, with part of the 2nd batch of 116 older, not upgraded, Abrams covered with US military air (some $200 millions). Maybe USA and Europe could buy couple of hundreds T-72 tanks from India, but as I said it is highly unlikely that India will do anything to antagonize Russia as they have lot of connection with its military industry and it is currently their main source of oil with 22% of all imported oil. For example, India is still has contract for local production of T-90MS tanks, but transmissions and engines for those are supposed to be delivered from Russia. So they would not risk braking it as production already started two or three years ago with lot of delays.

While India criticized Russia for their actions, it never officially strongly condemned it or impose any sanctions against it. India will not take active part in supplying Ukraine in any way or any deal. Unless, maybe, Ukrainian victory is assured which is not case currently.

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

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Caribbean wrote: 21 Jan 2023, 15:34
Tempest414 wrote: 21 Jan 2023, 10:24 maybe NATO should be looking to upgrade a load of T-72's with say a John Cockerill 120mm XC8 turret
Might it not be better to do that with Leo 1 hulls
yes Leo 1 could be a good option for a new 120mm turret JC launched there new 105mm turret upgrade for Leo 1 this year and claim that once the new turret , adaptor ring & power cable are ready the turret change can be done in hours
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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Post by TheLoneRanger »

Pakistan is currently supplying soviet designed ammunition to ukraine right now in large quantities, maybe the USA can buy Pakistani T80UDs and send them to Ukraine. The T80UDs were from Ukraine so they can operate them easily and are quite modern. The T80UDs are well maintained and deployed for frontline use, so they are immediately available.

The Americans have the Pakistani generals on retainer ( re: recent coup to dispose Imran Khan ) so it should not be too difficult to organise this.

Given that Pakistan is going to go bankrupt in weeks, they could probaby do with the USD reserves to delay the inevitable day of reckoning... and they can backfill the T80UDs with VT4s tanks from China which they are already buying.

T80UD's
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/t80ud.htm

VT4's
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... or-vt4-mbt

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

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Given the ongoing Leo 2 to Ukraine debacle I sincerely hope that MGCS is dead in the water as is any clever suggestion that we should drop CR3 for Leo2. In fact I’d be astounded if in 10 years time anyone in CEE is still buying German, that new Korean / Polish production line is going to have a virtual monopoly of everything east of Berlin and if we’re smart we’ll jump on board
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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

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SD67 wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 11:17 Given the ongoing Leo 2 to Ukraine debacle I sincerely hope that MGCS is dead in the water as is any clever suggestion that we should drop CR3 for Leo2. In fact I’d be astounded if in 10 years time anyone in CEE is still buying German, that new Korean / Polish production line is going to have a virtual monopoly of everything east of Berlin and if we’re smart we’ll jump on board
Have to say I don’t see the logic in that argument. There is much criticism of German positions over the past decade plus and rightly so but on tanks I’m not so sure, I could understand it if everyone else was agreeing to send tanks but as no one but the UK has agreed such a move I don’t see the logic.

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

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The other Leo users are trying to send them, but Germany is blocking....pretty clear cut. More to do with German arms industry losing out when those nations need backfill their tank donations, they won't be buying German given Germany's actions this last 11 months....a morally repulsive position that Sholz/Germany is taking
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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

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dmereifield wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 13:08 The other Leo users are trying to send them, but Germany is blocking....pretty clear cut. More to do with German arms industry losing out when those nations need backfill their tank donations, they won't be buying German given Germany's actions this last 11 months....a morally repulsive position that Sholz/Germany is taking
Didn’t see the same vitriol of don’t buy American when they put a stop to the Ukraine request for fighter a/c last year

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

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SW1 wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 13:19 Didn’t see the same vitriol of don’t buy American when they put a stop to the Ukraine request for fighter a/c last year
Small nuances in difference. Flying jets from US/NATO airbases into what was contested airspace was somewhat sketchy grounds. Trucking in tanks (or aircraft) is slightly different. There's not to say I'm firmly on the US side of the argument.

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Post by inch »

Do we all agree whatever side of the argument about Germanys reasons good or ill,that German equipment ,tanks etc might be in for a tough time after what's go on ,agree or not ?

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

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inch wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 15:53 Do we all agree whatever side of the argument about Germanys reasons good or ill,that German equipment ,tanks etc might be in for a tough time after what's go on ,agree or not ?
I’m gonna say not, mainly because I don’t actually think the users of leopards or any of the other big tank users outside Germany are that willing to send them even Poland.

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

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SW1 wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 13:19
dmereifield wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 13:08 The other Leo users are trying to send them, but Germany is blocking....pretty clear cut. More to do with German arms industry losing out when those nations need backfill their tank donations, they won't be buying German given Germany's actions this last 11 months....a morally repulsive position that Sholz/Germany is taking
Didn’t see the same vitriol of don’t buy American when they put a stop to the Ukraine request for fighter a/c last year
There is a difference.

Last year USA did nt want to send US aircraft from US directly to Ukraine, at the risk of inflaming and escalating the war, especially if flown direct into a warzone.

This year it is Germany stoping countries such as Poland from sending their german built Leopards, much of which are stored in warehouses, to Ukraine, especially when it would be easy to send them by train over the border.

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

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wargame_insomniac wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 16:31
SW1 wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 13:19
dmereifield wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 13:08 The other Leo users are trying to send them, but Germany is blocking....pretty clear cut. More to do with German arms industry losing out when those nations need backfill their tank donations, they won't be buying German given Germany's actions this last 11 months....a morally repulsive position that Sholz/Germany is taking
Didn’t see the same vitriol of don’t buy American when they put a stop to the Ukraine request for fighter a/c last year
There is a difference.

Last year USA did nt want to send US aircraft from US directly to Ukraine, at the risk of inflaming and escalating the war, especially if flown direct into a warzone.

This year it is Germany stoping countries such as Poland from sending their german built Leopards, much of which are stored in warehouses, to Ukraine, especially when it would be easy to send them by train over the border.
Sure about that? I thought Poland wanted to send migs and the US went no!

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

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so remind me what is the big problem of sending M1A1 Abrams to Ukraine if it the engine could they not fit a MTU diesel yes this would be a big task but this thing is not going to over anytime soon and even if it ends before they get there they will still need new tanks plus other smaller counties may want them as well

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