Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

[mrclark303]

Question, where do we expect to place the Tempest between F-22, F-35 - NGAD, F/A-XX ?

I'm a 1990 kid, so I was too small to see how the F-35 collaboration progressed.

Does the NGAD have more of the F-22 progress or the F-35 one?

It's too early to say Merv, at this point it's looking something like the F22, with the advantage of a 30 year jump in the technology, it's going to be ( potentially) a very impressive aircraft indeed.

It's going to be ground breaking in all areas, using a good deal of new technology, from propulsion, to construction and avionics.

The F35 is an abstract lesson on how not to conduct a military aircraft programme, it was dogged with trouble from an early stage, in reality it did come effectively very close to failing, the technical sophistication becoming so horrendously complex and overwhelming for the contractors, but was simply too big and important to be allowed to die, so they just kept throwing money at it until it eventually worked!

It's finally starting to reach a level of operational maturity ( though full operational capability is still some way off) 28 years after the 'all things to all men' concept was first drafted!

I personally think LM can't wait to kill off F35B and C and purely concentrate on future advanced A models, it will make their life far easier.....

The F/A-XX is effectively a Gen 6 Tempest competitor, clean sheet design and it will be very interesting to see what emerges.

I feel the Franco German Spanish effort will be far less ambitious, with German continually forcing cost cutting and physical size limitations, due to French insistence on Aircraft Carrier capability.

This will also add to the costs and complexity of their machine.....

[TheLoneRanger]

FCAS Update : https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/e ... ng-by-2029

The fact that FCAS is too large to operate from the new French carrier - is an interesting observation for sure. I guess they were forced to make this statement - even though the definition of what they are planning to do is very vague.

[SD67]

It’s funny - the programs seem to have swapped places.
Tempest / GCAP is now very tightly focused on developing a new F22, whereas FCAS has gone all “systems of systems” with half a dozen different streams. Which means the manned fighter component of that FCAS ecosystem could be quietly shifted to the right as Germany moves into Typhoon batch 5 and France keeps exporting Rafale.

Nowhere in that FCAS presentation does it say “we will have a new fighter in service in 2035”

[serge750]

It’s funny - the programs seem to have swapped places.
Tempest / GCAP is now very tightly focused on developing a new F22, whereas FCAS has gone all “systems of systems” with half a dozen different streams. Which means the manned fighter component of that FCAS ecosystem could be quietly shifted to the right as Germany moves into Typhoon batch 5 and France keeps exporting Rafale.

Nowhere in that FCAS presentation does it say “we will have a new fighter in service in 2035”

I absolutely agree, I'm personally glad we are sharply focusing on a manned, large platform with the Japanese and Italians.

I expect the Italians to pull out though, I can't see how a large and without doubt expensive platform fits their needs?

They are rolling out ( and heavily investing in assembly of) the mid sized F35 in both flavours and it's an excellent all round platform that fits Italian needs, especially as it's maturing.

Now Britain and Japan are both Island Nations with responsibility for 'huge' tracts of Airspace to police, also with the possibly of long range strike against tier one opponents with sophisticated layered air defence systems.

This means a large and extremely capable aircraft....

I wonder if we will go off the shelf with UCAV/ Loyal Wingman, perhaps its an exciting opportunity to further boost and deepen our defence ties with Australia and adopt their new loyal wingman design?

[serge750]

Maybe the italian will stay onboard for their slice of the workshare & maintain their systems industry, with just buying a smallish number of airframes ?

[SW1]

I think people are getting very caught up in the word “large”. This refers to the choice of a twin engine aircraft as opposed to a single engine option that was on the table.

It will likely lean towards air dominance rather than strike. It will be similar in size to typhoon and tornado. Italy have operated both types.

We should have zero absolute zero interest in Boeing products. There are better options for loyal wingmen out there. If we fixate on one area of the system then it will be a failure. We need to consider the whole system thru life from training onto the platform thru to stand-off weapons.

[mrclark303]

Maybe the italian will stay onboard for their slice of the workshare & maintain their systems industry, with just buying a smallish number of airframes ?

We will see I guess, I expect them to bug out at the next turning point, 2025 when it enters the big money phase.

Perhaps Italy will buy in as an observer and sub contractor, maybe that's the plan....

[mrclark303]

I think people are getting very caught up in the word “large”. This refers to the choice of a twin engine aircraft as opposed to a single engine option that was on the table.

It will likely lean towards air dominance rather than strike. It will be similar in size to typhoon and tornado. Italy have operated both types.

We should have zero absolute zero interest in Boeing products. There are better options for loyal wingmen out there. If we fixate on one area of the system then it will be a failure. We need to consider the whole system thru life from training onto the platform thru to stand-off weapons.

I suppose we will see SW1, personally I think it will be F22 sized.

Both Tornado and Thypoon were limited in size by German insistence, had the RAF not argued it's corner strongly during Thypoon development, then it would have been a lighter, less sophisticated aircraft.

German insistence on Tornados diminutive size seriously effected it's range and loadout options, it's ability to become a genuine multi role machine like the F4 Phantom was seriously compromised.

They could potentially have sold thousands, if they stuck to something more akin to the cancelled Anglo French Variable geometry Aircraft.

I think Tempest will be large, as a low observable machine, long range and high internal payload capability, are important primary drivers for both the RAF and JSDF.

[SD67]

Maybe the italian will stay onboard for their slice of the workshare & maintain their systems industry, with just buying a smallish number of airframes ?

We will see I guess, I expect them to bug out at the next turning point, 2025 when it enters the big money phase.

Perhaps Italy will buy in as an observer and sub contractor, maybe that's the plan....

Personally I like the idea of the Italian airforce being Able to dominate the Mediterranean,
with enough range to easily cover a flare up in, say Libya or the eastern med

[mrclark303]

Maybe the italian will stay onboard for their slice of the workshare & maintain their systems industry, with just buying a smallish number of airframes ?

We will see I guess, I expect them to bug out at the next turning point, 2025 when it enters the big money phase.

Perhaps Italy will buy in as an observer and sub contractor, maybe that's the plan....

Personally I like the idea of the Italian airforce being Able to dominate the Mediterranean,
with enough range to easily cover a flare up in, say Libya or the eastern med

To be fair, with an F35 based force from land and sea, they should be able to dominate and defeat any likely Mediterranean/ north African aggressor.

The F35 is an order of magnitude more capable than anything else operated, it's a simple case of first to launch, first to kill....

The Egyptian Rafael fleet is probably the closest in capability, but the F35 is going to be able to launch long before Rafael can get a lock...

[Zeno]

The future sixth generation French German will not be able to launch of the present French carrier because of its expected size but the future nuclear carrier ,is there a requirement that any future sixth generation fighter for the U.K be capable of being launched of its carriers?

[serge750]

The future sixth generation French German will not be able to launch of the present French carrier because of its expected size but the future nuclear carrier ,is there a requirement that any future sixth generation fighter for the U.K be capable of being launched of its carriers?

Doubtfull as the F35b are still new & will probably still be a for decades... but a bit of still hopes for a carrier version of the tempest project

[mrclark303]

The future sixth generation French German will not be able to launch of the present French carrier because of its expected size but the future nuclear carrier ,is there a requirement that any future sixth generation fighter for the U.K be capable of being launched of its carriers?

No, its a recipe for a compromised design for one.
Secondary, the two projects are way out of step, it will probably be 30 years before F35 is replaced in UK service and who knows what will be available then, or even if a manned fighter is even required.

Currently the French are looking at a single large carrier to replace CdG, it's going to be horrendously expensive and will leave them in the same position they are now.

Such a shame they didn't do the sensible thing and use the same basic design as QE2, a waisted opportunity to build three Aircraft Carriers that could have lowered the cost all round.

The French could have built a third of the blocks for all three and assembled their carrier in France, completed to Catbar configuration.

[Zeno]

Although dimensions have not been provided for the next generation F.C.A.S its believed too large for the present French carrier, the Queen Elizabeth aircraft carriers lifts can carry two F35B,S or a Chinook , I'm not sure the present design of the Queen Elizabeth carrier could accommodate larger aircraft that F.C.A.S are considering

[motiv]

Could we be seeing the first hints of the Italians pulling out..

Italy defence minister demands equal weight in UK, Japan fighter partnership

ROME (Reuters) - Italy must have equal treatment in a partnership with Britain and Japan to develop a new jet fighter, Rome's defence minister told Reuters, as talks proceed to define the roles each country has in the ambitious project.

The three nations this month announced the Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP) venture to develop by 2035 a next generation jet which would combine the British-led Tempest project with Japan's F-X programme.

The partnership came as France, Germany and Spain moved forward with a rival plan to build a warplane in a broad European bid to strengthen security against the backdrop of Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

Defence Minister Guido Crosetto, a co-founder of Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni's Brothers of Italy party, said Rome would make a final decision on how much to invest in the multi-billion-dollar project after more details had been defined.

"Italy can only continue along this path if it has the same weight as Japan and Britain on technology, research and later, if it comes to that, on the results," he said in an interview, adding that he wanted a "33%-33%-33%" breakdown.

[dmereifield]

Could we be seeing the first hints of the Italians pulling out..

Italy defence minister demands equal weight in UK, Japan fighter partnership

ROME (Reuters) - Italy must have equal treatment in a partnership with Britain and Japan to develop a new jet fighter, Rome's defence minister told Reuters, as talks proceed to define the roles each country has in the ambitious project.

The three nations this month announced the Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP) venture to develop by 2035 a next generation jet which would combine the British-led Tempest project with Japan's F-X programme.

The partnership came as France, Germany and Spain moved forward with a rival plan to build a warplane in a broad European bid to strengthen security against the backdrop of Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

Defence Minister Guido Crosetto, a co-founder of Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni's Brothers of Italy party, said Rome would make a final decision on how much to invest in the multi-billion-dollar project after more details had been defined.

"Italy can only continue along this path if it has the same weight as Japan and Britain on technology, research and later, if it comes to that, on the results," he said in an interview, adding that he wanted a "33%-33%-33%" breakdown.

Didn't the press release announcing the partnership with Japan already make mention of an equal partnership of the three nations?

Also, he's a politician, he can't say that Italy will be a junior partner....

This announcement doesn't seem to indicate anything negative, I don't think

[mrclark303]

Could we be seeing the first hints of the Italians pulling out..

Italy defence minister demands equal weight in UK, Japan fighter partnership

ROME (Reuters) - Italy must have equal treatment in a partnership with Britain and Japan to develop a new jet fighter, Rome's defence minister told Reuters, as talks proceed to define the roles each country has in the ambitious project.

The three nations this month announced the Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP) venture to develop by 2035 a next generation jet which would combine the British-led Tempest project with Japan's F-X programme.

The partnership came as France, Germany and Spain moved forward with a rival plan to build a warplane in a broad European bid to strengthen security against the backdrop of Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

Defence Minister Guido Crosetto, a co-founder of Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni's Brothers of Italy party, said Rome would make a final decision on how much to invest in the multi-billion-dollar project after more details had been defined.

"Italy can only continue along this path if it has the same weight as Japan and Britain on technology, research and later, if it comes to that, on the results," he said in an interview, adding that he wanted a "33%-33%-33%" breakdown.

Didn't the press release announcing the partnership with Japan already make mention of an equal partnership of the three nations?

Also, he's a politician, he can't say that Italy will be a junior partner....

This announcement doesn't seem to indicate anything negative, I don't think

They will probably all rub along together at this stage, but when it switches up a gear in 2025 and cold hard cash is called for, let's see if Italy actually wants to invest 33% ...

I still find it an odd choice for Italy, there dosen't really seem to be an Italian requirement for such a machine with their comprehensive F35 involvement.

Perhaps it's just a smoke and mirrors ruse to get a better deal on a second tranche F35 buy down the road, as a Thypoon replacement.

If I ran the Italian Air force, I would be questioning Tempest involvement, as it will divert needed funding on a duplication of capability.....

[wargame_insomniac]

I agree that I think Italians will want an "equal share" up until major investment is required, and will then pull out, but by that point having guaranted the involvement of Italian companies to manufacture components which I suspect was their likely end goal all along.

[SW1]

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-12-21/

Just saying……

[TheLoneRanger]

I agree that I think Italians will want an "equal share" up until major investment is required, and will then pull out, but by that point having guaranted the involvement of Italian companies to manufacture components which I suspect was their likely end goal all along.

I suspect that both the UK and Japan will be aware of this and thus will look to structure the programme such that if the Italians pullout - they may have developed their companies with new technology - but their access to workshare will be constrained - etc.

There is a lot of emphasis on "equal partners" in this programme - which i also take as a que to stop the sort of behaviour that caused so many problems for the eurofighter programme.

[Meriv9]

Could we be seeing the first hints of the Italians pulling out..

Italy defence minister demands equal weight in UK, Japan fighter partnership

ROME (Reuters) - Italy must have equal treatment in a partnership with Britain and Japan to develop a new jet fighter, Rome's defence minister told Reuters, as talks proceed to define the roles each country has in the ambitious project.

The three nations this month announced the Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP) venture to develop by 2035 a next generation jet which would combine the British-led Tempest project with Japan's F-X programme.

The partnership came as France, Germany and Spain moved forward with a rival plan to build a warplane in a broad European bid to strengthen security against the backdrop of Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

Defence Minister Guido Crosetto, a co-founder of Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni's Brothers of Italy party, said Rome would make a final decision on how much to invest in the multi-billion-dollar project after more details had been defined.

"Italy can only continue along this path if it has the same weight as Japan and Britain on technology, research and later, if it comes to that, on the results," he said in an interview, adding that he wanted a "33%-33%-33%" breakdown.

Didn't the press release announcing the partnership with Japan already make mention of an equal partnership of the three nations?

Also, he's a politician, he can't say that Italy will be a junior partner....

This announcement doesn't seem to indicate anything negative, I don't think

They will probably all rub along together at this stage, but when it switches up a gear in 2025 and cold hard cash is called for, let's see if Italy actually wants to invest 33% ...

I still find it an odd choice for Italy, there dosen't really seem to be an Italian requirement for such a machine with their comprehensive F35 involvement.

Perhaps it's just a smoke and mirrors ruse to get a better deal on a second tranche F35 buy down the road, as a Thypoon replacement.

If I ran the Italian Air force, I would be questioning Tempest involvement, as it will divert needed funding on a duplication of capability.....

All 3 partners (UK, Japan, Italy) have the F-35 in service. The biggest F-35 operator in the world is also investing heavily in a new 6th gen machine. Your argument is dumb.

[Meriv9]

If I ran the Italian Air force, I would be questioning Tempest involvement, as it will divert needed funding on a duplication of capability.....

What we do ignore AMX, M346 and all programs we have to develop a national industry?
So It would be a duplication for Italy but not for Japan? Kinda strange double standard...

Please don't fall in the same trap of French tone of speaking with partners.

And about Italy dropping out lets check past track?
If we go and check multinational programs, if you have a nation that sticks to its words its Italy
Correct me if I'm wrong but we should have one of the best track records on cooperation, even more considering our budget.
Horizon CNFR,
FREMM
Typhoon
F-35
Etc.. etc....

Yes we had cuts (F-35) to do but that depends on extreme budgets reasons and not industrial gaining like the Germans do for example, and we payed the price on lost setbacks.

Nah we will ask 33% until the cash will be to be shown and then the % will get reduced to the amount we are going to provide.

[wargame_insomniac]

Could we be seeing the first hints of the Italians pulling out..

Italy defence minister demands equal weight in UK, Japan fighter partnership

ROME (Reuters) - Italy must have equal treatment in a partnership with Britain and Japan to develop a new jet fighter, Rome's defence minister told Reuters, as talks proceed to define the roles each country has in the ambitious project.

The three nations this month announced the Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP) venture to develop by 2035 a next generation jet which would combine the British-led Tempest project with Japan's F-X programme.

The partnership came as France, Germany and Spain moved forward with a rival plan to build a warplane in a broad European bid to strengthen security against the backdrop of Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

Defence Minister Guido Crosetto, a co-founder of Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni's Brothers of Italy party, said Rome would make a final decision on how much to invest in the multi-billion-dollar project after more details had been defined.

"Italy can only continue along this path if it has the same weight as Japan and Britain on technology, research and later, if it comes to that, on the results," he said in an interview, adding that he wanted a "33%-33%-33%" breakdown.

Didn't the press release announcing the partnership with Japan already make mention of an equal partnership of the three nations?

Also, he's a politician, he can't say that Italy will be a junior partner....

This announcement doesn't seem to indicate anything negative, I don't think

They will probably all rub along together at this stage, but when it switches up a gear in 2025 and cold hard cash is called for, let's see if Italy actually wants to invest 33% ...

I still find it an odd choice for Italy, there dosen't really seem to be an Italian requirement for such a machine with their comprehensive F35 involvement.

Perhaps it's just a smoke and mirrors ruse to get a better deal on a second tranche F35 buy down the road, as a Thypoon replacement.

If I ran the Italian Air force, I would be questioning Tempest involvement, as it will divert needed funding on a duplication of capability.....

All 3 partners (UK, Japan, Italy) have the F-35 in service. The biggest F-35 operator in the world is also investing heavily in a new 6th gen machine. Your argument is dumb.

"Your argument is dumb" Friendly Ron......!

Let's break it down for you.

The largest F35 operator, the USA views the F35 as it's 'light' filler fighter. It's stretching that a bit, as it's substantially larger than the F16 it replaces.

Their Gen6 programme is effectively the high end spear tip, F22 replacement and will probably produce two parallel machines, one for the Air force and one for the Navy.

That's clear and understood.

Now look at Japan and the UK, they have parallel requirements as Island Nations with huge tracts of Airspace to police and need a very high end machine to defeat tier one enemies on day one of a war.

That calls for a long range, low observable multi roll aircraft, with a high internal weapons load, excellent manoeuvrability, powerful engines and superior avionics.

This equates to a large F22 sized airframe, perhaps even bigger.....

Now Italy will have a fleet of F35A and a small B fleet, they don't have responsibility for a huge area of Airspace to police (they rarely get involved in offensive operations in anything more than a token way) and their F35's are already effectively massive overkill compared to any likely regional aggressor they might face.

Dosen't seem dumb to me Ron....

[Meriv9]

Please state whom are your possible UK regional Aggressors vs Italian possible aggressors

EDIT: You realize that the distance between London and Saint Petersburg is shorter than the distance between Rome and Suez channel just to choose a strategic point of interest...

And how can you be sure of Algeria/Egypt (with F-15, Rafales, etc.. etc..) /Turkey (Mass of F-16 and local produced future crafts) airforces performances be inferior of the stellar track record of the VKS in Ukraine?

Just to name some.

[dmereifield]

If I ran the Italian Air force, I would be questioning Tempest involvement, as it will divert needed funding on a duplication of capability.....

What we do ignore AMX, M346 and all programs we have to develop a national industry?
So It would be a duplication for Italy but not for Japan? Kinda strange double standard...

Please don't fall in the same trap of French tone of speaking with partners.

And about Italy dropping out lets check past track?
If we go and check multinational programs, if you have a nation that sticks to its words its Italy
Correct me if I'm wrong but we should have one of the best track records on cooperation, even more considering our budget.
Horizon CNFR,
FREMM
Typhoon
F-35
Etc.. etc....

Yes we had cuts (F-35) to do but that depends on extreme budgets reasons and not industrial gaining like the Germans do for example, and we payed the price on lost setbacks.

Nah we will ask 33% until the cash will be to be shown and then the % will get reduced to the amount we are going to provide.

Interesting points. What do you think the % distributions will end up as when production gets going?