Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

[inch]

Go with the Americans even ,lol

[TheLoneRanger]

I can’t help but feel that we’d get more, better quality jets with less expensive through life support costs if we just went all in with the Americans like we did with F35.

The Tempest programme offers industrial capability that an all in F-35 programme wont offer, and the use for the Tempest is different from what the F-35 can do.

If Tempest fails, then we should go for what ever 6th-gen the Americans will offer and avoid anything from the French-German combo as it will be over priced, under-developed - it will have very expensive lifecycle support and maintenace costs due to the very small number of airframes the French-Germans will procure, compared to the Americans.

I have my fingers crossed for a successful Tempest programme!

[Jensy]

What would a future combat aircraft be without a catchy abbreviation?

Say hello to the Global Combat Aircraft Programme (GCAP).



No longer a broad 'system of systems', with UCAVs now separate from the manned fighter programme.

As for Sweden:

The partnership dialogue with Sweden is said to be continuing, with the two sides exploring how they can build on previous collaboration with the British on programs like the Saab Gripen fighter.

In a statement a Saab spokesman said the company is “focused on supporting the Swedish authorities on reviewing the Swedish future combat air system context.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... an-global/

[Ron5]

Any ideas on how the Japanese have influence the design/requirements? The new images don't match the earlier ones and don't display the back end.

[Ares]

Any ideas on how the Japanese have influence the design/requirements? The new images don't match the earlier ones and don't display the back end.

According to our prominent aviation media, the three countries have agreed to reflect Japan's requirements in most of the performances and designs of the fighter.

That may be why the Tempest demonstrator and GCAP became considerably larger than the original concept model.

[SD67]

Excellent. Big is good. Long range is good. Big, wealthy resource rich countries out there like Australia and Saudi Arabia want long range, top end capability, and they can pay for it. And when the Northern ice cap recedes Canada will have a direct front line with Russia.

I hope SAAB gets something out of it, insert some technology into Gripen E and it could be a competitor at the more affordable end of the spectrum, though I expect the Swedes are too honest to compete with Dassault marketing

[inch]

Yes it makes you wonder what other countries they are talking too who are genuinely seriously interested in joining project in some form if not wholly ?

[Jensy]

This is what Tony Osbourne in Aviation Week says:

At the same time the GCAP announcement was made, what appears to be a third iteration of the aircraft’s design has emerged.

The design builds on a concept shown at the Farnborough Airshow that featured a YF-23-like butterfly tail combining the vertical and horizontal stabilizers into what appeared to be two large ruddervators. The latest configuration features a lambda wing with smaller vertical stabilizers fitted at a less shallow angle, while the engines appear to be more widely spaced than in the previously publicly released design iteration.

[TheLoneRanger]

Excellent news that the project has been inked with international partners with contractual obligations that stops the UK bean counters from cancelling the project without loss of face for the UK..

The emphasis on equal partners is interesting and good and reflects the ongoing issues that the Franco-German programme has with each looking to harvest and own key technology and know how for themselves at the expense of the other.

Hopefully we will now get stability in the stakeholders(ie no addition of France or Germany with their usual nonsense !!! ) and we can progress towards the first flyable prototype with no political posturing !!!!!!!

Another interesting writeup of the Tempest programme.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/n ... tain-italy


Japan brings alot of technology and "money" to the table for sure. Their requirements as an island nation are similar to ours. Shame that Sweden is not involved more formally - but i suspect this comes down to their requirements for a smaller platform with greater emphasis on operating from roads and other ad-hoc operating areas.

Australia has similar requirements as Japan i suspect - but i can see them simplying buying them off the shelf - allowing the current partners to fund the R&D and where they can spend their R&D dollars on the nuclear submarine programme.

Go Tempest !!! Go !!!!!

[SW1]

I think we should all be more interested in operating from ad hoc areas but that would require investment in more things than just the plane.

In Finland a number of their Road operations are from roads beside airbases essentially just using it as a second runway.

[Meriv9]

Excellent. Big is good. Long range is good. Big, wealthy resource rich countries out there like Australia and Saudi Arabia want long range, top end capability, and they can pay for it. And when the Northern ice cap recedes Canada will have a direct front line with Russia.

I hope SAAB gets something out of it, insert some technology into Gripen E and it could be a competitor at the more affordable end of the spectrum, though I expect the Swedes are too honest to compete with Dassault marketing

I hope big not only for the range but specially the Netcentric, i hope it is a tandem fighter, so that we have a full brain dedicated to swarms, EW, data reading etc... etc...

[TheLoneRanger]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/static/tempe ... e-systems/

>> nice writeup on the many dimensions of why Tempest is important to the UK...

[Ron5]

I suspect collaboration with Japan will present its own set of challenges. I doubt if the road will be free from some major bumps.

[Jdam]

Do we know what its like to cooperate with Japan on military projects?

[Timmymagic]

Do we know what its like to cooperation with Japan on military projects?

The closest you'd get is the US-Japan relationship. Aegis, F-16, F-15, F-35 etc.

[Digger22]

I think the Japanese should worry more about dealing with us.

[Little J]

Be interesting to see how many bumps in the road the US tries to put in place

[SouthernOne]

Do we know what its like to cooperation with Japan on military projects?

The closest you'd get is the US-Japan relationship. Aegis, F-16, F-15, F-35 etc.

Don't forget the Mitsubishi F-2, a pretty expensive rework of the F-16.

[mrclark303]

Be interesting to see how many bumps in the road the US tries to put in place

I think you can guarantee the US will roll their sleeves up now and and start attacking the Tempest programme with a view to killing it off at birth.

It's officially over the start line and from a US perspective, needs to be killed off prior to 2025 when the Consortium gets to serious investment and engineering stage.

Method of attack with all three partners will be various offers of F35, increasing workshare, local assembly and reduced unit cost...

[Meriv9]

Question, where do we expect to place the Tempest between F-22, F-35 - NGAD, F/A-XX ?

I'm a 1990 kid, so I was too small to see how the F-35 collaboration progressed.

Does the NGAD have more of the F-22 progress or the F-35 one?

[SW1]

Airbus Dassault workshare split

[SD67]

Australia has similar requirements as Japan i suspect - but i can see them simply buying them off the shelf - allowing the current partners to fund the R&D and where they can spend their R&D dollars on the nuclear submarine program

I see Australia and KSA as prime potential customers, maybe with a workshare / local assembly deal. Australia will need an F18 replacement. Kinda like how 50 years ago they were looking for a Canberra replacement...

[SouthernOne]

Australia has similar requirements as Japan i suspect - but i can see them simply buying them off the shelf - allowing the current partners to fund the R&D and where they can spend their R&D dollars on the nuclear submarine program

I see Australia and KSA as prime potential customers, maybe with a workshare / local assembly deal. Australia will need an F18 replacement. Kinda like how 50 years ago they were looking for a Canberra replacement...

The RAAF has already disposed of its if F/A-18A/B+ s, while a decision on another squadron of F-35s to replace the Super Hornets is scheduled within the next few years. The only F-18 platform remaining will be the EA-18G Growlers.

After Tigre and NH90 I suspect the ADF in general will stay well clear of any program it perceives as being driven primarily by partner nation work share agreements, rather than delivery and support of capability for customers.

[mrclark303]

Excellent. Big is good. Long range is good. Big, wealthy resource rich countries out there like Australia and Saudi Arabia want long range, top end capability, and they can pay for it. And when the Northern ice cap recedes Canada will have a direct front line with Russia.

I hope SAAB gets something out of it, insert some technology into Gripen E and it could be a competitor at the more affordable end of the spectrum, though I expect the Swedes are too honest to compete with Dassault marketing

Unfortunately SD, it looks like Sweden are ducking out of Tempest.

Especially as it's now tightly focused on a manned (optionally manned?) F22 sized platform.

Regarding size, it's absolutely the right choice and I would expect Saudi Arabia to show great interest in a large platform like Tempest......

Canada is locked into F35, it's a shame as the embryonic Tempest looks absolutely perfect for them too....

I was hoping SAAB would be in charge of designing a smaller single engine Tempest, using the engine and avionics to produce a light fighter.

The idea of a 'whole fleet approach' of UCAV/ Loyal Wingman Light and heavy fighters under the Tempest banner is of course now defunct.

It's a shame, but perhaps we are better being tightly focused on the Heavyweight fighter.

I can't actually see it being a particularly good fit for the Italians and it's a slightly curious fit, considering they are so heavily invested in F35....

[mrclark303]

Australia has similar requirements as Japan i suspect - but i can see them simply buying them off the shelf - allowing the current partners to fund the R&D and where they can spend their R&D dollars on the nuclear submarine program

I see Australia and KSA as prime potential customers, maybe with a workshare / local assembly deal. Australia will need an F18 replacement. Kinda like how 50 years ago they were looking for a Canberra replacement...

The RAAF has already disposed of its if F/A-18A/B+ s, while a decision on another squadron of F-35s to replace the Super Hornets is scheduled within the next few years. The only F-18 platform remaining will be the EA-18G Growlers.

After Tigre and NH90 I suspect the ADF in general will stay well clear of any program it perceives as being driven primarily by partner nation work share agreements, rather than delivery and support of capability for customers.

I would agree. While a large state of the art Gen 6 combat aircraft would absolutely 'fit' Australian needs as China gets increasingly assertive, the huge RAAFinvestment in F35 will preclude any Australian involvement.