Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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sol
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by sol »

RunningStrong wrote: 12 Nov 2022, 15:28 Not sure that's confirmed...

https://euro-sd.com/2022/09/articles/27 ... eration-2/
I guess it depends on source one is using. I found this on defence24 site
460 K9PL howitzers are to be manufactured in Poland, domestically. As the Polish MoD announced, the K9PL system is to make use of the K9A2 technologies - including the autoloader system that made it possible to reduce the crew needed to operate the howitzer to 3 soldiers.
https://defence24.com/armed-forces/poli ... led-photos

Even the article you provided saying that ...
The K9PL variant is intended to include elements from the presently in development K9A2 SPH, along with the use of some Polish subsystems.

Poland’s July 2022 framework agreement with Hanwha Defense covers the purchase of a total of 672 K9 family SPHs, of which early tranches will consist of K9A1 and later tranches of K9PL. Additionally, the K9A1 SPHs are planned to later be upgraded to the K9PL standard, and both partners are also expected to work jointly on the K9A3 variant planned to complete development in the 2030s.
It does not confirm autoloader but main thing with both K9A2 and K9A3 is autoloader with reduced crew and more automatization. Who knows, maybe whoever wrote article for defence24 jumped to conclusion that it will have autoloader or received incomplete information. We can only wait for more info in the future.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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sol wrote: 12 Nov 2022, 13:10
Tempest414 wrote: 12 Nov 2022, 10:03 K9A2 might be a better fit in the Deep Strike BCT but I still believe we need a wheeled SP artillery unit capable of operating with the medium & Light Mechanised BCT's
What is medium brigade? Are you mean Armoured BCT? By FS, there will be only two 155mm regiments, which would cover both DRS and Armoured BCT. There is no need for two separate platform as there, and both tracked or wheeled could fit in that role. I am not arguing here which would be better choice.

While there are two LBCT, only the one of them will have regular artillery regiments. What guns this regiment will use, currently using L118, probably depend on what will replace that system. I personally don't see point having a separate wheeled 155mm platform just for one regiment, and if 16th AABCT and 3rd Comm continue with 105mm, than LBCT should do the same or else it will complicate both regular and TA artillery regiments structure, role and training.

Just wheeled platform would probably be the best option for the British Army, as, in that case, you can potentially have 3 regular 155mm regiments and one TA regiment operating on the same platform but again that depend on how they are planing to replace L118. I personally, don't like idea having 3 separate gun systems/platforms for just 5 gun artillery regiments.
Nowhere did I say 3 gun types for me what I would like to see is what ever replaces the L118 being able to operate form the back of a MAN 6x6 in SP mode or towed through use of its base plate

We also need to remember that 7th RHA and 29 Commando RA are special unit trained to operate within there brigades

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by sol »

Boxer with RT-60 mission module



Unfortunately it is just an image without any news. It kinda looks big, if the British Army want to increase firepower with larger gun but not use missiles maybe some smaller version could do, like RT-20 perhaps. Or, if they want CTA 40, something like Nexter unmanned turret instead.

Wonder could Ares with Nexter unmanned turret could be used as IFV as Warrior replacement.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by RunningStrong »

MilDef bring manufacturing to Wales, first time outside of Sweden, to build processors for Boxer.

https://news.cision.com/mildef-group-ab ... s,c3671184

sol wrote: 23 Nov 2022, 12:58 Wonder could Ares with Nexter unmanned turret could be used as IFV as Warrior replacement.
Ares itself only carries 4 PAX, but certainly a variation on the internal fitment could have more seats.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by sol »

RunningStrong wrote: 23 Nov 2022, 13:30 Ares itself only carries 4 PAX, but certainly a variation on the internal fitment could have more seats.
Yes, not Ares per se, but version for infantry without necessary sensors and equipment. Ascod could carry 3 crew + 6 or 7 personnel (depending of source). If it can carry 7 that would give it same carry potential as Warrior and putting unmanned turret with CTA 40, could save space inside while giving purpose to all those guns already obtained. Not sure how much ammo for gun could be carried inside tho, without need to remove a man for it. If the Army wants a new tracked IFV, this could be logical choice, and if I am not wrong it should also have good protection to for that role. But considering that, so far, there is no plans to replace Warrior, this is all hypothetical of course.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Sorry no good with adding images but a quick look on google under RT60 and there is a picture of a real boxer fitted with a RT-60 turret for a middle East country

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Rentaghost »

So, NAO reckons the Army has a requirement for 1300 Boxers.... that's an unbelievable number.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by tomuk »

Rentaghost wrote: 29 Nov 2022, 16:48 So, NAO reckons the Army has a requirement for 1300 Boxers.... that's an unbelievable number.
The NAO review what the MOD\Army have proposed they don't come up with their own requirements
Boxer: funding for 1,016 vehicles out of a requirement for 1,305.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by sol »

Ridicules number if it result in just five mechanised battalions.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by SW1 »

Rentaghost wrote: 29 Nov 2022, 16:48 So, NAO reckons the Army has a requirement for 1300 Boxers.... that's an unbelievable number.
That would be like what enough to equip 4 brigades?

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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SW1 wrote: 29 Nov 2022, 20:49
Rentaghost wrote: 29 Nov 2022, 16:48 So, NAO reckons the Army has a requirement for 1300 Boxers.... that's an unbelievable number.
That would be like what enough to equip 4 brigades?
Exactly, if 623 gets you 5 battalions in two brigades under Future Soldier, and assuming the future artillery gun system either isn't on Boxer or at least not far enough down the procurement process to count then you are talking basically the equivalent of doubling the number of Boxer infantry battalions.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by sol »

Rentaghost wrote: 29 Nov 2022, 23:01 Exactly, if 623 gets you 5 battalions in two brigades under Future Soldier, and assuming the future artillery gun system either isn't on Boxer or at least not far enough down the procurement process to count then you are talking basically the equivalent of doubling the number of Boxer infantry battalions.
Actually 623 probably is not enough for 5 battalions, not because of total number but because number of ordered variants. There is not enough infantry carriers among them for 5 battalions, but there is plenty of C&C and Ambulances. Boxer will probably be used by much wider range of units, not just an infantry, like engineers, signals, etc, and there should be more Boxer orders just to cover planned 5 battalions. But them again, if the British Army end with over 1000 Boxers but only 5 mechanised battalions, IMO that would such a waste of money, especially at the times like this. For example, 789 Warriors was enough to equip 8 or 9 armoured infantry battalions.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by SW1 »

The French only ordered around 600 vcbi, as an example and at this moment are in a much better shape than we are on land programs.

Between Ajax, boxer and challenger we have near 2000 heavy armoured vehicles in order for a 2 brigade army!

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by sol »

SW1 wrote: 30 Nov 2022, 09:11 The French only ordered around 600 vcbi, as an example and at this moment are in a much better shape than we are on land programs.
And for 628 VCBI IFVs, they got 8 mechanised regiments.
SW1 wrote: 30 Nov 2022, 09:11 Between Ajax, boxer and challenger we have near 2000 heavy armoured vehicles in order for a 2 brigade army!
Technically 3 brigades as DRS, with Ajax regiments, will have more then 100 heavy armoured vehicles itself. Issue is that DRS could hardly operate on its own.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Could this be in step with HMG scrapping the planned cut to the army and staying at the current level which could allow another 3 or so Battalions

What was the cut to be 10,000 odd if this is number is kept could we see another Brigade?

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Given that we now know the army has a funding plan for 1000 Boxer's plus 500 Ajax I would still like to see a plan for 1000 Bushmaster with these 3 types forming the core of the army

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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We are by accident starting to become very heavy and static again. Not much consideration seems to be, being given to how we are going to get places quickly. Don’t see any evidence of significant road, rail air or sea transport investment to match.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by RunningStrong »

We need an answer on Pinz and Bulldog and Warrior non-IFV variants. Will they continue or will they be replaced by BOXER or an MRV-P vehicle.

If the answer is Boxer then those numbers will quickly be absorbed into all sorts of roles.
SW1 wrote: 30 Nov 2022, 10:46 We are by accident starting to become very heavy and static again. Not much consideration seems to be, being given to how we are going to get places quickly. Don’t see any evidence of significant road, rail air or sea transport investment to match.
Really?

We have one of the largest C17 fleets in NATO, and. Significant A400M fleet. They've also started investment in the new sealift capability.

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... capability

As well as that, we've also invested in lightweight vehicles.

https://www.joint-forces.com/defence-eq ... pacat-hmtv

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Tempest414 »

SW1

you say this however on the 10th of this month we moved a division to Germany which was made up of

16XX BCT
7th Light Mech BCT
12th Armoured BCT
1st Aviation BCT
101st Operational Sustainment brigade

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by SW1 »

RunningStrong wrote: 30 Nov 2022, 11:04 We need an answer on Pinz and Bulldog and Warrior non-IFV variants. Will they continue or will they be replaced by BOXER or an MRV-P vehicle.

If the answer is Boxer then those numbers will quickly be absorbed into all sorts of roles.
SW1 wrote: 30 Nov 2022, 10:46 We are by accident starting to become very heavy and static again. Not much consideration seems to be, being given to how we are going to get places quickly. Don’t see any evidence of significant road, rail air or sea transport investment to match.
Really?

We have one of the largest C17 fleets in NATO, and. Significant A400M fleet. They've also started investment in the new sealift capability.

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... capability

As well as that, we've also invested in lightweight vehicles.

https://www.joint-forces.com/defence-eq ... pacat-hmtv
Yes really. How many boxer/Ajax challenger can u put in an a400m/c17. Over what distance are you looking at sending it. We’re is the increase in HET or the increase in rail options. The strategic sea lift has gone from 6 to 2/4. We only need look at earlier this year how long did it take to move even a partial battlegroup from senelager to Estonia it was weeks!

Despite the wishful thinking will need to move forces from the U.K. to wherever we want to go over a distance and quickly.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Tempest414 wrote: 30 Nov 2022, 11:09 SW1

you say this however on the 10th of this month we moved a division to Germany which was made up of

16XX BCT
7th Light Mech BCT
12th Armoured BCT
1st Aviation BCT
101st Operational Sustainment brigade
We moved that entire division from the U.K. to there fwd positions in Germany in a week? 2 weeks ? A month that’s a force of 30k troops outlined I didn’t see t mentioned before or was it just largely there HQs after months of planning

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Check Ex Cerberus

thousands of troops and hundreds of vehicles were moved at speed by Air , Sea and land to forward bases in Germany to test the Command system

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Tempest414 wrote: 30 Nov 2022, 11:26 Check Ex Cerberus

thousands of troops and hundreds of vehicles were moved at speed by Air , Sea and land to forward bases in Germany to test the Command system
So about 3500 personnel which is equivalent to what 2 battle groups? Largely aimed at HQs not the hard fighting parts with all the ammo and supplies to keep them on the road potentially engaging in intense fighting.
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by sol »

Tempest414 wrote: 30 Nov 2022, 10:16 Could this be in step with HMG scrapping the planned cut to the army and staying at the current level which could allow another 3 or so Battalions
Only one battalion was lost by reducing number of men in the Army, 2nd Mercian. Well technically two, but 3rd Royal Gurkha Rifles was not properly formed but it was supposed to be an assistance battalion anyway. I doubt the Army would form new battalions and even if cutting of personal is reversed, it was already mentioned that those would mostly benefit artillery which, considering experiences from Ukraine, has perfect sense.
Tempest414 wrote: 30 Nov 2022, 11:09 you say this however on the 10th of this month we moved a division to Germany which was made up of

16XX BCT
7th Light Mech BCT
12th Armoured BCT
1st Aviation BCT
101st Operational Sustainment brigade
And while that list looks impressive on paper, only 3500 men and some 800 vehicles were moved, which is barely a brigade. All those units just send a combat group, not a full formation. I no doubt that moving whole division was not a plan in first place, and lot of important lessons was learned, listing all those units like they were full formations is completely useless.
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