German Armed Forces

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Timmymagic
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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by Timmymagic »

ArmChairCivvy wrote: 23 May 2022, 06:59 Relating to that there is a tube -aunched member about to join the NSM/JSM family - I do not know, though, whether it has the same high degree of commonality that exists between NSM/JSM.
The Norwegian's are witing for someone to pay for it. It's specifically the JSM rather than NSM. Likelihood is that it will be a quid pro quo with the German's as the Norwegian's are looking to buy the 212CD Sub with them. If they do go ahead its a very sensible move for the RN...

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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by Lord Jim »

The German Navy has plenty of AShMs in the Baltic the last time I looked, RBS-15 Mk3 and soon Mk4 to start with on their Corvettes. Equipping their Euro fighters and NH-90s with some sort of AShM would be a good idea though.

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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Lord Jim wrote: 23 May 2022, 23:17 and soon Mk4
Ohh, v good.

There was some (press) speculation about a 'customer' wanting a 1000 km range for Mk4
... and i read that to be India (no use for that n the Baltic)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by Jdam »

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... ping-list/

The Jerry's might be getting more P-8. 12 in total, thats more than a certain island nation :eh:
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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by Lord Jim »

IF the German Navy thinks it needs twelve P-8s to cover its needs , the UK certainly needs more to meet its own, even if we actually purchase a number of Sea Protector UAS as part of our existing order. Like I said on the E-7 thread if we reduced the recently announced order for further F-35s, for every F-35 deferred or cancelled we could purchase an extra E-7 or P-8. Food for thought I think.
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Scimitar54
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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by Scimitar54 »

Not a case of either or unfortunately, IT HAS TO BE “Purchase all three types in the numbers that are required”. :idea:
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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by wargame_insomniac »

Scimitar54 wrote: 06 Jun 2022, 07:44 Not a case of either or unfortunately, IT HAS TO BE “Purchase all three types in the numbers that are required”. :idea:
Agreed subject to the restrictions of US Production capacity. With US moving to acquire E7 and the F35 proving increasingly popular with many new nations making purchases, demand is high and supply seems to be restricted.

It will take several years for UK to receive even those F35's already ordered. So yes, assuming that more funds are made available for defence, we do need more of all 3 airframes listed (as well as tankers and airlift aircraft), it may take many years for them to be delivered.

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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by Tempest414 »

Seeing what Germany is doing is not always the way see should be going but we do need to take a new look at our own thinking and for me we should be looking at a manned fleet of

110 x Typhoons ( Replace the T1's with new T4's with the whole fleet replaced 1 for 1 by Tempest )
80 x F-35
6 x E-7 AEW
14 x P-8 ASW
9 x C-17
12 x C-130-J 30 ( Keeping the remaining fleet )
28 x A-400 M ( add wing refuelling pods to 14 aircraft )
14 x A-330 MRTT ( Bring the whole fleet on line )
60 Chinooks ( replacing older airframes with new ones
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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by Lord Jim »

I doubt will will replace the Typhoons with Tempest on a one for one basis. The USAF cannot afford to replace its existing fleet of F-22s with its planned NGAD platform, instead partnering a lesser number with a greater number of UAS/ / Loyal Wingmen. WE will probably end up doing the same with Tempest.
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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by Tempest414 »

Lord Jim wrote: 07 Jun 2022, 01:13 I doubt will will replace the Typhoons with Tempest on a one for one basis. The USAF cannot afford to replace its existing fleet of F-22s with its planned NGAD platform, instead partnering a lesser number with a greater number of UAS/ / Loyal Wingmen. WE will probably end up doing the same with Tempest.
There is a big differences as the US wil have some 2400 F-35 for me we need to maintain a combat fast jet fleet of 180 to 200 which we are not doing now I know but we really need 70+ F-35B for the carriers and a 110 jets to cover the UK and BOST plus other overseas deployments for me we need 5 wings plus 2 Overseas Flights like so

3 x wings of 36 jets plus 40 Mosquito UAS ( Typhoon , Tempest )
2 x Carrier wings of 25 jets plus 30 Mosquito UAS ( F-35 )
2 x Flights of 6 jets and 12 Mosquito UAS ( Typhoon , Tempest 1 in Falklands and the other in Cyprus )

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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by Lord Jim »

Reducing the first wo to two and one respectively may be nearer the mark, unless we are able to actually achieve the cost saving in the manufacture and operating costs of whatever platform comes out of the TEMPEST programme. The operation of a combat UAS from the Carriers is an aspiration, but until other countries also decide they need a high speed, STOVL combat capable UAS, and allocate resources, it will remain as such.

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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by Lord Jim »

Here for your pleasure is Rheinmetall's promo video for its brand new KF-51 Main Battle Tank, named the Panther! IT has a 130mm gun to start with as well as the latest systems available to Rheinmetall. Now how about 120 of these to equip out two remaining Armoured Regiments moving forward?

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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by Tempest414 »

Lord Jim wrote: 14 Jun 2022, 18:04 Here for your pleasure is Rheinmetall's promo video for its brand new KF-51 Main Battle Tank, named the Panther! IT has a 130mm gun to start with as well as the latest systems available to Rheinmetall. Now how about 120 of these to equip out two remaining Armoured Regiments moving forward?
To late we are going with Challenger 3 which will be a good MBT

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Re: German Armed Forces

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Lord Jim wrote: 14 Jun 2022, 18:04 Here for your pleasure is Rheinmetall's promo video for its brand new KF-51 Main Battle Tank, named the Panther! IT has a 130mm gun to start with as well as the latest systems available to Rheinmetall. Now how about 120 of these to equip out two remaining Armoured Regiments moving forward?
They tell us the main role of the tank these days is to support the infantry and we see them training running round beside the tank in urban areas. Wouldn’t fancy there chances if they are standing next to that going off or some of these fancy active protection systems think they may clean out more of own side than the enemy.

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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by TheLoneRanger »

Looks like a good tank. Hopefully the UK can get back to designing its own tanks after Challenger 3 is done. Best to not rely on Germany for the next generation seeing how they have behaved in supplying Ukraine ...

This does feel like fallout from French posturing over the FCAS programme to me ?? There is every chance Germany saw the French behaviour over FCAS and have had second thoughts on the EuroTank project and decided to bring out this new tank for themselves. Guess next is to withdrawn from Eurotank ....

Given that the Germans have gone for the F35 - there is every chance that FCAS is gonna die :) :) ..

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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by mr.fred »

TheLoneRanger wrote: 15 Jun 2022, 20:10 This does feel like fallout from French posturing over the FCAS programme to me ?? There is every chance Germany saw the French behaviour over FCAS and have had second thoughts on the EuroTank project and decided to bring out this new tank for themselves. Guess next is to withdrawn from Eurotank ....
Looks like it’s Rheinmetall worrying about being shut out of the next MBT with KMW using Nexter for turrets and weapons.
To me anyway.
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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by Lord Jim »

Forces News piece on the future of the German Army. It is a shame our Politicians have taken to heart the same lessons!

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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by SKB »

Now they can afford to send another 5000 helmets.

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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by Scimitar54 »

5000 “Helmut's” would be of much more use ! :mrgreen:
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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by Lord Jim »

I am assuming when then speak of their desire to become the biggest land force in NATO bar the USA, they are forgetting Turkey. I believe they are currently the second biggest army in NATO by quite some margin.

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Re: German Armed Forces

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Re: German Armed Forces

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Damen with the design of the new German F126 166m/~10,000t frigate have chosen an all diesel propulsion system, no GTs, it would appear to be CODLAD. Main engines are two medium speed MAN V32/44CR diesels, assuming the 12 MW 102t 20 cylinder version, with soft resilient mounting system to meet shock and noise requirements. Diesel gensets four MTU Series 4000 with variable speed capability, assuming the 4 MW version. ABB will supply their Onboard DC Grid system which allows the MTU gensets to run at variable speed for optimal fuel consumption, eliminates main switchboards and drive transformers saving space and claimed to give up to max 20% fuel saving, depends on usage, compared to an AC fixed frequency system, DC made possible with new gen ultra fast high current DC breakers to ensure safety.

Would guess not to dissimilar in max speed to a T26, T26 with its more powerful MT30 GT, 36-40 MW, whereas the F126 is a longer ship at 166m and that offsets its lower power by giving it lower drag due its higher fineness ratio, the ratio of length to width. Drag scales exponentially with increased speed, rule of thumb you need to double the power to increase speed by 4 knots.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... -for-f126/

https://www.edrmagazine.eu/rolls-royce- ... s-for-f126
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Re: German Armed Forces

Post by NickC »

Following the Russian invasion of Ukraine Germany is taking the threat of missile attack seriously, for ten plus years they dithered over buying the MEADS/TVLS SRBM BMD system with its Patriot missiles to defend from the Iskander SRBM deployed in the Russian enclave of Kaliningrad on the Polish border (Poland buying the Patriot system).

Germany recently have shown strong interest in the much longer range Israeli Arrow 3 MRBM BMD system developed with US funding to counter Iranian MRBMs, Chancellor Scholz and Israeli Prime Minister Yair Lapid met September 12 who declared that Israel “will be part of the construction of Germany’s new defense force".

Surprisingly US does not appear to be blocking the deal, Switzerland did ask Israel to be one of the bidders for its air defence system with David's Sling, Patriot and Eurosam SAMP/T (Aster), the US blocked the Israeli bid which they were entitled to as they jointly funded David's Sling as itwas competing with Patriot, the Swiss picked Patriot in preference to SAMP/T (Aster). Why US is not blocking the deal a mystery given their track record, think the nearest US equivalent to Arrow is the shorter range THAAD

Would note the Eurosam SAMP/T (Aster) SRBM BMD sales minimal compared to Patriot/THAAD

https://breakingdefense.com/2022/09/ger ... or-israel/
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Re: German Armed Forces

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Re: German Armed Forces

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17th November for the the new Damen designed 10,000 t F126 frigate, Damen have chosen to fit two the Rheinmetall Sea Snake 27mm MLG27-4.0 Remote Control Weapon Station cannons which come with daylight cameras, infrared sensors and laser rangefinders and can be integrated into ships CMS, its the the latest variant, Wikipedia mentions total of 99 ordered previously by the German Navy.

The 27mm cal. revolver gun can operate in single-shot mode, in adjustable bursts, or at a sustained rate fire of up to 1,700 rounds per minute, a development of the BK 27 originally manufactured by Mauser (now part of Rheinmetall) developed in the late 1960s for Tornado and then Typhon firing a 27×145 mm cartridges.

November 1st German Navy ordered 600 the 6th gen RAM Block 2Bs, jointly produced by Raytheon and Diehl , two 21 cell Mk 144 launchers will also be fitted on the F126 so strong CIWS defence.

For medium range air defence a possible max of 64 ESSM Block 2s can be fitted in the F126 16 Mk 41 VLS cells, Germany is a member of ESSM manufacturing consortium.

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