Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SW1 »

You never know bae may even get round to using the latest cad system on it, unlike jsf lagging a generation behind everyone else…

Not that many left under 50 in the technical engineering fields across the board anymore.

They’ve had the agency’s hounding people to come back on tempest since end of last year as not many want to go back.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by motiv »

Caribbean wrote: 03 Aug 2022, 13:42 It would certainly seem like a good idea to team up with some academic institutions. There are a lot of good Universities in the North
I suspect they will have talks with UCLAN. It's always been a uni/poly that many left to join BAE.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Caribbean »

Can’t disagree with that as a choice, my daughter did her MA there
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by mrclark303 »

matt00773 wrote: 29 Jul 2022, 09:32
inch wrote: 29 Jul 2022, 09:24 Does anybody think the US will try to scupper the tempest program somehow,ie offer Japan a deal it can't ignore or try to Syphon off Italy or Sweden ,or offer Sweden/ Italy back door deals for them not too let Japan join tempest program ,or is it just me being v clinical after reading what matt00773 post ,if America can scrap or disable the opposition and leave them top dog why wouldn't they ,or try get all the knowledge and tech from tempest but not offer much in return except future promises ,,I don't know why but I feel somewhere down the line forces will try blunt tempest program unfortunately
I think this is highly doubtful. It's in US best interests to have allies with comparable technology into the future where there's increasing pressure from China (at least) and the need to work together ever more closely - and to react with equal capability. The AUKUS pact is a part of this and even mentioned by the attaché in the article. Exchanging technology knowhow would be beneficial to both sides if it indeed goes ahead.
For me, any potential US involvement in the Tempest programme is a red flag.

It would bring far too many strings, such as US vetoes on potential exports.

No, keep the whole programme separate from US Gen6 efforts.

A potential team up of the UK, Japan, Sweden and Italy are certainly capable of producing a system equally capable to anything Uncle Sam can produce .... Providing sufficient money is forthcoming of course!

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

I remember at at Barrow they had these joint MOD / BAE posters up stressing confidentiality : "NO confidential discussions with Foreign Nationals! - EVEN AMERICANS"
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by mrclark303 »

SD67 wrote: 04 Aug 2022, 13:30 I remember at at Barrow they had these joint MOD / BAE posters up stressing confidentiality : "NO confidential discussions with Foreign Nationals! - EVEN AMERICANS"
Sums it up nicely!

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Lord Jim »

I cannot see any issue with having an options list of US equipment for Tempest, especially if they pay for the majority of the integration work. This may improve its export potential to customers who already use certain US systems or weapons, but the platform would also be available without any US involvement. I cannot see the US really wanting to have a major role in the core platform as it is already developing a 6th Gen air dominance platform with possibly secondry air to ground capabilities, plus the F-35 will still be in production.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Ares »

The British and Japanese governments seem to have firmly agreed on the requirements and sizes to develop the same next-generation fighter jet.
JASDF's next fighter will be developed as a common aircraft with the UK.
2022/08/14 05:00
The Japanese and British governments made final adjustments in the direction of unifying the development plans of the two sides and jointly developing a common aircraft for the JASDF and the RAF's next fighter. In addition to nearly matching the performance required for the next fighter, it was determined that development costs could be reduced.

This was announced by several government officials. The costs related to development will be included in the defence budget request for fiscal 2023, and the overall picture of the development will be determined within this year.

Britain planned to deploy the Tempest, the successor to its main fighter, the Eurofighter Typhoon, in combat by 2035 and develop it jointly with Italy and Sweden.

In subsequent discussions between the Japanese and British governments, it was agreed that it would be appropriate to standardize the aircraft because the required performance was almost the same and the development period overlapped. It is also expected to reduce development costs, which are said to significantly exceed 1 trillion yen, and improve production efficiency.

Italy is also participating in joint development. Lockheed Martin's involvement is expected to be limited to ensuring interoperability with U.S. military aircraft.

https://www.yomiuri.co.jp/politics/2022 ... 1T50230/2/
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Excellent news. With Japan onboard, it does help derisk the programme as they have a more mature approach to development commitments than the approach the French/Germans take.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by inch »

Awesome News , with Italy and Sweden hopefully fully onboard right thru to actually all purchasing the same basic aircraft it will be a brilliant aircraft I'm sure with all collective talents and niche skills to bring to the party,and I also think that will definitely put paid to Germany thinking about joining depending how French/German program goes,ie tempest program does not need Germany money to make happen with Japan onboard,and I think incidentally that tempest would fit into German needs better than a carrier/non carrier combo aircraft .but tempest doesn't need the Germany screw up fannying bureaucracy causing nothing but time delays cost and restrictions to sales afterwards .in a really brilliant world France would go it alone and come up with a great aircraft and Germany would just buy tempest but with no input except maybe production in Germany for their own needs
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by inch »

Ps ,I no that the French/Germans will come to an agreement between them because they couldn't afford the bad press that Europe couldn't get its act together
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Cooper »

inch wrote: 14 Aug 2022, 10:17 tempest program does not need Germany money to make happen
It never did.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by inch »

But put that to a British government or future labour government who might want to save costs or be closer to Europe again I'm not so sure , political overriding industry not necessarily to the benefit of the program or product ,it's happened before,but hopefully this puts to bed (and I mean hopefully) a political view that need Germany money and want Europe to be our best friends again at least business wise

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Timmymagic »

inch wrote: 14 Aug 2022, 11:48 future labour government
I'm really not sure why you'd be worried by that...

There's zero evidence that Labour are worse for defence than the Conservatives, in fact the actual evidence is directly opposite. The 5 most damaging defence reviews of the Post War Period; 1957 Defence White Paper (the Sandys Review), 1981 Defence White Paper (the Nott Review), 1990 Options for Change, 2010 SDSR and 2015 SDSR....ALL were under Conservative governments.

The only decent review we've had in the last 50 years, the 1998 SDR, was undertaken by the Labour Government...

As for UK combat aircraft:
- A Labour Government who got us in F-35 (under JSF) as a full partner...
- A Labour Government got Typhoon out of its development hell and actually delivered after 15 years of fannying around...
- A Labour Government started the Tornado programme off after the Conservative government cancelled TSR.2.
- A Labour Government started off the Sepecat Jaguar programme...
- A Labour Government ordered and delivered Sea Harrier...
- A Labour Government developed and delivered into operational service Harrier...

The Conservatives in comparison did:
- Harrier GR.5/7/9 - They did start this off....then retired them early...
- Typhoon did start with them...

After the last 12 years of Conservative decimation of defence, and complete disinterest in our national security, I'm not sure why anyone would possibly think they were more effective...particularly around combat aircraft...

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Phil Sayers »

Good points above but to a degree they just reflect that it is the right of the Labour party that can win an election rather than the left. If someone like Corbyn was to get in it would be a very different story.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Ron5 »

Timmymagic wrote: 14 Aug 2022, 12:59 A Labour Government started the Tornado programme off after the Conservative government cancelled TSR.2.
No. Labour cancelled TSR2 & P1154 and CVA01.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Cooper »

Timmymagic wrote: 14 Aug 2022, 12:59 There's zero evidence that Labour are worse for defence than the Conservatives, in fact the actual evidence is directly opposite. The 5 most damaging defence reviews of the Post War Period; 1957 Defence White Paper (the Sandys Review), 1981 Defence White Paper (the Nott Review), 1990 Options for Change, 2010 SDSR and 2015 SDSR....ALL were under Conservative governments.
All of which followed Labour Governments bankrupting the country, getting voted out of office and leaving the Tories to look like the bad guys, sorting out the financial mess.

..and we all know who is the easiest of all whipping boys, when it comes to spending cuts.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Timmymagic »

Phil Sayers wrote: 14 Aug 2022, 13:02 Good points above but to a degree they just reflect that it is the right of the Labour party that can win an election rather than the left. If someone like Corbyn was to get in it would be a very different story.
Thats true. The Right Wing of the Conservative Party is every bit as bad as the Left Wing of the Labour Party...
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by serge750 »

Defence just is not a vote winner & a easy target 4 cuts till the crap hits the fan, 2010 was really 4 the armed forces, but b4 that imo so was cancelling CVA 01 & TSR2 ! G brown did a good by the contract 4 the QE carriers though ! ( or his underlings - he he )

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by inch »

But I think you all are missing the point , labour is definitely more EU inclined ATM than this government especially Starma no matter what he says now .and if could get back into euro programs I think they would at a drop of a hat , using the excuse it's sharing and saving costs which some partners in Europe are hence Italy Sweden but Germany is a whole different ball game ,and we already know what a total ball ache they are for any jet programme ,so hopefully fingers crossed for tempest UK Japan Italy and really would like Sweden to actually buy the future jet also

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by matt00773 »

I noticed when visiting that Japanese news article that there was another - very short - article on this subject:

"It will be a fighter with unlimited capabilities, as we plan to link it with unmanned aerial vehicles (drone)."

https://www.yomiuri.co.jp/politics/20220812-OYT1T50323/
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SW1 »

People often hold up the 98sdr as somehow a great review. It was not. It has laid the foundations of the last 2 decades of disastrous defence and foreign policy. It ordered things that it could not afford and has results in complete unbalancing and hollowing out across the board. Worst of all it started an interventionist foreign policy that cost way too much in destroyed lives.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by GarethDavies1 »

I think 911 destroyed 98SDR

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

inch wrote: 14 Aug 2022, 14:45 But I think you all are missing the point , labour is definitely more EU inclined ATM than this government especially Starma no matter what he says now .and if could get back into euro programs I think they would at a drop of a hat , using the excuse it's sharing and saving costs which some partners in Europe are hence Italy Sweden but Germany is a whole different ball game ,and we already know what a total ball ache they are for any jet programme ,so hopefully fingers crossed for tempest UK Japan Italy and really would like Sweden to actually buy the future jet also
I agree and can see a situation where the labour left wants outright cancellation, the right wants to keep it, and they compromise by bringing Germany into the program knowing that that effectively means a 10 year delay so everyone's happy (except the RAF - or maybe they get bought off with a bridge purchase of F35A)
The other political problem with Tempest is that it's English so in the event of a Lab/Lib/SNP coalition from hell there'll be at least one partner with knives out

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Timmymagic »

SD67 wrote: 15 Aug 2022, 15:28 The other political problem with Tempest is that it's English so in the event of a Lab/Lib/SNP coalition from hell there'll be at least one partner with knives out
The Leonardo UK work is enormous and is almost entirely in Edinburgh...

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