Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Little J »

No one is suggesting that the MoD don't do their due diligence, but 'IF' tracked Boxer is up to the task surely it would be a logical purchase*...



*yes I know MoD and logic are not happy bedfellows :lol:

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by bobp »

Little J wrote: 26 Jun 2022, 20:24 No one is suggesting that the MoD don't do their due diligence, but 'IF' tracked Boxer is up to the task surely it would be a logical purchase*...



*yes I know MoD and logic are not happy bedfellows :lol:
Exactly how many of these tracked Boxers are in production. Secondly how much armour does it have?

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Little J »

Exactly what part of "due diligence" didn't cover these questions? If they look at what's on offer and say its a load of shite, fair enough, kick it to the kerb...

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by sol »

Lord Jim wrote: 26 Jun 2022, 19:55 If the wheeled and tracked platforms Dive Modules share many components starting with the engine and so on you are going to get savings retarding support and running costs even if you just cover the purchase of consumables, and any repair of parts schemes.
They are not having a same engine. Also one is tracked and one is wheeled, beside module how many same components could be? And if MoD decide to obtain different vehicle why couldn't they request a usage of the many components that other vehicles in the Army are using?
Lord Jim wrote: 26 Jun 2022, 19:55 AS for wheeled Boxer replacing tracked platforms like Fv432, CVR(T) platforms like the Sultan and Spartan, Warrior. Against all of these it wil be cheaper to operate, maintain and train crews on. The modular system will make maintaining the fleets of Boxers more efficient.
How much is a "price" of one Boxer? Original contract for 523 vehicles is worth £2.8 billion, which would give £5.3 million per vehicle. Which is almost twice as much as AMPV which is replacing M113 in US Army. So I guess the British Army does not have money for new IFVs but it should purchase instead a really expensive ambulances and command vehicles. Now compared that for example with Latvia procurement of 200 Patria 6x6 for €200 million, or £171 million. Same vehicle that German intend to replace their Fuchs fleet. Yes, replacing all vehicles with Boxer could be a good idea for the British Army but it will cost them a lot to do that. How much other capabilities could Army provide for that cost, I wonder.
Lord Jim wrote: 26 Jun 2022, 19:55 I moght be going blind but we cannot afford a totally new fleet of tracked AFV to replace Warrior and Possible Ajax. Any money available would get more bang for the buck by aadopting a tracked Boxer platform once it has been properly developed. Other nations may also see the benefots, as the thracked version will be a good cjoice to replace the many M113 varieties still in servce if they do not wish to have w wheeled platformin some roles for example.
In the end tracked Boxer would mean a totally new fleet of tracked AFVs. And I doubt that anyone (but maybe the British Army) would be insane to replace their M113 fleet with such expansive vehicle. Getting 45 tone vehicle, which would cost over £5 million (if not even more) for roles that M113 is providing is madness.
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Right now we have 6 Infantry Battalions in the 3rd division 4 x Warrior and 2 x Mastiff if we were talking of replacing the Warrior units with wheeled boxer and then replacing the Mastiff units with tracked boxer giving us 3 heavy BCT's of

1 x armoured regt = 44 CH-3
1 x Cavalry regt = 60 Ajax
2 x Infantry Battalions = 200 Boxer

I would be quit happy but first RBSL would need to deliver 6 or so Tracked boxer to the army for testing

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by sol »

Tempest414 wrote: 27 Jun 2022, 11:42 Right now we have 6 Infantry Battalions in the 3rd division 4 x Warrior and 2 x Mastiff
By the Future Soldier reform there will only be 5 mechanised battalion in two ABCT, all of them equipped with Boxer (wheeled one, of course). Battalions equipped with Mastiff will not stay there as they will be moved to 7th LMBCT.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Yes the Boxer is expensive, but the Army appears to be doubling down on it with the second order wholst in the meantime the whole MRV(P) programme seems to have come to a halt. Could some of the money planned for the latter have been used to purchase more Boxers?

AS for the vehicles the Army intend toreplace with it, it will most likely be only these vehicles in the "Frontline", formations such as the two Heavy BCTs that will be replaced, as well as possibly those vehicles in 3rd Davison's HQ and supporting units. There are many FV432 still lurking there.

AS for Engine, I agree the Power Trains are not the same, but the difference is mainly in the transmission not the engine itself as far as I am aware.

AS for cheaper vehicles, yes thereare vehicles available like the one suggested, but they do not have the performance or protection of the Boxer, just look at the Bundeswehr, they are replacing their M113 variants with Boxer and using the AMV to replace the Fuchs.

The conversation regaring the Tracked version of the Boxers was purely a what if one, if the Army decided it wanted a new Tracked IFV, and the benefits choosing the Boxer would bring over say The Lynx of CV90.. Disregarding the Engine/Power Train, just being modular and using those modules that are the same as those available to the wheeled version would be a significant saving, and allow these to be purchased separately form the Drive Module and initially being used on the wheeled version. IT would also open up interesting options like the 155RCH, being able to fit it to the most relevant platform for a given mission, wheeled or tracked.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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sol wrote: 27 Jun 2022, 11:57
Tempest414 wrote: 27 Jun 2022, 11:42 Right now we have 6 Infantry Battalions in the 3rd division 4 x Warrior and 2 x Mastiff
By the Future Soldier reform there will only be 5 mechanised battalion in two ABCT, all of them equipped with Boxer (wheeled one, of course). Battalions equipped with Mastiff will not stay there as they will be moved to 7th LMBCT.
And this why I have said we need to drill down on what these Wheeled battalions need before digging to deep into tracked boxer

As I have said I see tracked Boxer as a play by RBSL for the AS-90 replacement we think the gun module is well on the way and working on wheeled Boxer if they can get a working tracked boxer fitted with the 155mm gun module going who knows

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by sol »

Tempest414 wrote: 28 Jun 2022, 09:24 As I have said I see tracked Boxer as a play by RBSL for the AS-90 replacement we think the gun module is well on the way and working on wheeled Boxer if they can get a working tracked boxer fitted with the 155mm gun module going who knows
There will be requirements for AS-90 replacement, if tracked Boxer beat competition than sure, if not than choose the best option. But there is zero reasons to choose tracked Boxer just because .... it is tracked Boxed. Why not just go with wheeled Boxer instead? Army is not getting anything special by choosing it just because of that as it is essentially a new vehicle. So why not just go with new vehicle that is best for the purpose?

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Lord Jim »

Walk around the Rheinmetall Boxer/Skyranger 30. In German.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by sol »

Just realised that wheeled Boxer is actually photoshoped by putting wheels on tracked Boxer hull.



Still wonder how good such vehicle would be. Not sure if 105mm MGS would be better but 120mm gun at least should be able to use same ammo as CR3, I guess.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by sol »

Seems like there are some issues with Lithuanian Vilkas turrets


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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Interesting about photoshopping
... at least the Italian short-barrel ones for Brazilian 8x8 and Leopard 1s :!: are real. And if anyone remembers the difference in thinking for Leo 1 & 2, it was was the switch from mobility, to favour protection

In the dawning ( 8-) ) era of rar-ranged precision fires, may be that part of the Iron Triangle will see a shift, again?

As for Boxer, anyone taking the direct fire version?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by sol »

ArmChairCivvy wrote: 30 Jul 2022, 16:22 As for Boxer, anyone taking the direct fire version?
For now no one. Testing of Boxer with Cockerill 105 mm turret were suppose to happen last year, and while some mobility trials are done, firing trials were delayed due COVID restriction. Not sure if they were done this year but I couldn't find anything about it

Image

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... 105-turret

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Tempest414 »

This is the same turret that JC has just fitted to the Leopard 1 and they said once the turret , turret ring adaptor and power cable are ready they can do the turret change in one day bring the Leopard 1 up to date

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Rolls-Royce win contract for Boxer engine :-

https://rbsl.com/news-and-events/news/r ... tu-engines

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Timmymagic »

Looks like Boxer will get RS4 Protector and Javelin.

https://www.kongsberg.com/kda/what-we-d ... ector-rs4/

Real pity we're not buying the RS6 variant though...

https://www.kongsberg.com/kda/what-we-d ... ector-rs6/


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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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I still think the Boxer Battalions need something like a Cavalry Squadron/Company of say 12 boxers fitted with a turret equipped with a medium Auto cannon and ATGW. This unit could provide each Battalion with both a Recce and direct fire support capabilities.
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Timmymagic wrote: 03 Aug 2022, 15:32 Looks like Boxer will get RS4 Protector and Javelin.

https://www.kongsberg.com/kda/what-we-d ... ector-rs4/

Real pity we're not buying the RS6 variant though...

https://www.kongsberg.com/kda/what-we-d ... ector-rs6/

As i have said for some time I would be happy if 2/3's of the ACP & C&C Boxers are fitter with RS4 with 12.7 or 40mm GMG plus Javelin the remaining 3rd should get RS6 fitted with 30mm Venom plus Javelin

I also think it is time to up arm the Light Cavalry Jackals with RS6 and 30mm Venom plus Javelin

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Lord Jim wrote: 03 Aug 2022, 19:13 I still think the Boxer Battalions need something like a Cavalry Squadron/Company of say 12 boxers fitted with a turret equipped with a medium Auto cannon and ATGW. This unit could provide each Battalion with both a Recce and direct fire support capabilities.
But with in the BCT's there will a Ajax equipped Cavalry and a Armoured regt with CH-3 doing those jobs

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Tempest414 »

With Javelin being fitted to the RWS's on Boxer the biggest step for the Boxer battalions would be getting a Brimstone Over Watch company in place of its ATGW company giving them organic fire power out to 25+ km's this could see the Boxer battalions with fire power like so

50 to 2000 meter = Infantry weapons including NLAW & Vahicle weapons 12,7mm , 30mm , 40mm GMG

2000 to 5000 meters Vehicle based Javelin and SP Mortar

5000 to 25000 meters Brimstone

Also as said I think this should apply to the Light Mech battalion as well

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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But with in the BCT's there will a Ajax equipped Cavalry and a Armoured regt with CH-3 doing those jobs
[/quote]

That is assuming Ajax actually enters service. On the defensive yes the Armoured Regiments Squadrons would provide fire support for the Infantry Battalions in most caseswith the Infantry supporting the Armour when conducting offensive operations. But having a Cavalry/Recce Squadron is continuing a common practice that was instilled in both Armoured and Infantry units, providing both close Recce and could also provide fire support in defence and on the offense. Sometimes only needing a few rounds from a 35-40mm Auto Cannon is all that is needed instead of an expensive ATGW or having a MBT let everyone know when it is.

There are now a multitude of manned and unmanned Turrets containing a Medium Auto Cannon and one or more ready to use ATGWs that have been tested and cleared for use on Boxer. We could even adopt one of the Nexter produced Turrets fitted with the CT40.

Having the Boxer APC armed with either a M2 Browning or H&K 40mm AGL, supplemented by a Javelin covers most threats, but I still think the Battalions still need a number of more heavily armed variants of the Boxer, as well as a decent Mortar carrier and have a detachment of Boxer SPAAA vehicles included. Ideally I alos think each Battalion should also include greater engineering capabilities including both a Combat Engineering and a Bridgelayer variants of the Boxer. These can be a unit rom the Infantry Battalion or a detachment from a Royal Engineers unit attached more or less on a permanent basis in a similar way to the Air Defence unit.

The costs involved should be affordable, requiring the formation of both a Royal Artillery Air Defence and Royal Engineers Field Regiments. Existing plas for the Battalions Mortar Section seem to be based on configuring APCs to carry a 81mm Mortar in the back as is done on the FV432(m). This should not preclude the adoption of a more advanced Motar platform at a later date, and this would only entail new Mission Modules rather then totally new vehicles.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Lord Jim wrote: 07 Aug 2022, 02:07 But with in the BCT's there will a Ajax equipped Cavalry and a Armoured regt with CH-3 doing those jobs
LJ wrote
That is assuming Ajax actually enters service. On the defensive yes the Armoured Regiments Squadrons would provide fire support for the Infantry Battalions in most caseswith the Infantry supporting the Armour when conducting offensive operations. But having a Cavalry/Recce Squadron is continuing a common practice that was instilled in both Armoured and Infantry units, providing both close Recce and could also provide fire support in defence and on the offense. Sometimes only needing a few rounds from a 35-40mm Auto Cannon is all that is needed instead of an expensive ATGW or having a MBT let everyone know when it is.

There are now a multitude of manned and unmanned Turrets containing a Medium Auto Cannon and one or more ready to use ATGWs that have been tested and cleared for use on Boxer. We could even adopt one of the Nexter produced Turrets fitted with the CT40.

Having the Boxer APC armed with either a M2 Browning or H&K 40mm AGL, supplemented by a Javelin covers most threats, but I still think the Battalions still need a number of more heavily armed variants of the Boxer, as well as a decent Mortar carrier and have a detachment of Boxer SPAAA vehicles included. Ideally I alos think each Battalion should also include greater engineering capabilities including both a Combat Engineering and a Bridgelayer variants of the Boxer. These can be a unit rom the Infantry Battalion or a detachment from a Royal Engineers unit attached more or less on a permanent basis in a similar way to the Air Defence unit.

The costs involved should be affordable, requiring the formation of both a Royal Artillery Air Defence and Royal Engineers Field Regiments. Existing plas for the Battalions Mortar Section seem to be based on configuring APCs to carry a 81mm Mortar in the back as is done on the FV432(m). This should not preclude the adoption of a more advanced Motar platform at a later date, and this would only entail new Mission Modules rather then totally new vehicles.
[/quote]

If Ajax fails to enter service then it will need to be replaced until then it will cover the recce role with in the BCT

As said the quick fix is to fit 1/3 of the Boxer APC's with the RS6 with 30mm Venom and a Javelin

Yes the BCT's needs better Anti air and Engineer support

I still think with the Boxers RWS's being fitted with Javelin the battalion's need to replace the ATGW company with a Brimstone Over watch company these should have 9 vehicles with 18 ready missiles giving each Battalion 162 ready missiles. this could go someway to replacing the light gun in the Artillery freeing up a regiment to move to Air defence

with this said a Boxer battalion could bring to the battle field

9 x infantry Platoons with small arms and 54 NLAW
40 x 12.7 mm
20 x 30mm
20 x 40mm GMG
6 x 81mm SP Mortar
60 ready round Javelin + 60 more
162 Brimstone

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by RunningStrong »

Tempest414 wrote: 07 Aug 2022, 09:51 I still think with the Boxers RWS's being fitted with Javelin the battalion's need to replace the ATGW company with a Brimstone Over watch company these should have 9 vehicles with 18 ready missiles giving each Battalion 162 ready missiles. this could go someway to replacing the light gun in the Artillery freeing up a regiment to move to Air defence
Royal Artillery have traditionally been the operators of overwatch-esque guided missile anti tank systems. Most recently, Exactor.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Tempest414 »

RunningStrong wrote: 07 Aug 2022, 18:27
Tempest414 wrote: 07 Aug 2022, 09:51 I still think with the Boxers RWS's being fitted with Javelin the battalion's need to replace the ATGW company with a Brimstone Over watch company these should have 9 vehicles with 18 ready missiles giving each Battalion 162 ready missiles. this could go someway to replacing the light gun in the Artillery freeing up a regiment to move to Air defence
Royal Artillery have traditionally been the operators of overwatch-esque guided missile anti tank systems. Most recently, Exactor.
Yes and yes but it maybe time to push out and have the Brimstone over watch within the Battalions and allow the Artillery to carry out Brigade over watch with M270 or M142 and Air defence

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