Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
inch
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by inch »

Does anybody think the US will try to scupper the tempest program somehow,ie offer Japan a deal it can't ignore or try to Syphon off Italy or Sweden ,or offer Sweden/ Italy back door deals for them not too let Japan join tempest program ,or is it just me being v clinical after reading what matt00773 post ,if America can scrap or disable the opposition and leave them top dog why wouldn't they ,or try get all the knowledge and tech from tempest but not offer much in return except future promises ,,I don't know why but I feel somewhere down the line forces will try blunt tempest program unfortunately
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by matt00773 »

inch wrote: 29 Jul 2022, 09:24 Does anybody think the US will try to scupper the tempest program somehow,ie offer Japan a deal it can't ignore or try to Syphon off Italy or Sweden ,or offer Sweden/ Italy back door deals for them not too let Japan join tempest program ,or is it just me being v clinical after reading what matt00773 post ,if America can scrap or disable the opposition and leave them top dog why wouldn't they ,or try get all the knowledge and tech from tempest but not offer much in return except future promises ,,I don't know why but I feel somewhere down the line forces will try blunt tempest program unfortunately
I think this is highly doubtful. It's in US best interests to have allies with comparable technology into the future where there's increasing pressure from China (at least) and the need to work together ever more closely - and to react with equal capability. The AUKUS pact is a part of this and even mentioned by the attaché in the article. Exchanging technology knowhow would be beneficial to both sides if it indeed goes ahead.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Jensy »

matt00773 wrote: 29 Jul 2022, 05:24 There was never a £450m cut to the Tempest budget.
Fair enough.

I've found accurate reporting/govt statements over UK Tempest funding so opaque I honestly couldn't give a figure accurate to within multiple billions of pounds. Double accounting, shifting parameters and unfunded promises seem par the course.

Though my main point was that Italy would appear to be getting serious about their role in the programme.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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inch wrote: 29 Jul 2022, 09:24 Does anybody think the US will try to scupper the tempest program somehow,ie offer Japan a deal it can't ignore or try to Syphon off Italy or Sweden ,or offer Sweden/ Italy back door deals for them not too let Japan join tempest program ,or is it just me being v clinical after reading what matt00773 post ,if America can scrap or disable the opposition and leave them top dog why wouldn't they ,or try get all the knowledge and tech from tempest but not offer much in return except future promises ,,I don't know why but I feel somewhere down the line forces will try blunt tempest program unfortunately
Would agree the interest the US has is for it
to have complete dominance in the aerospace sector. If you need recent example see Boeing and 737 protectionism and their attempt to destroy a gd portion of the UKs aerospace sector.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by wargame_insomniac »

If the UK and US can share technology and thus share costs, in a similar fashion that it seems the UK will be doing with Japan, then that should be great.

The concern would be that the US is always used to being the senior partner in any partnership, is used to claiming the bulk of the work for US Companies, and is used to getting it's own way if there are conflicting requirements between the various partners.

I hope it means that UK gets a jet that meets the RAF desired specifications rather than USAF determined, and that UK doesn't have to give up too much of the work to US Companies.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by inch »

Simple answer to that wargame_insomniac don't work with us on tempest,only essential work so they can interact with each other that's all ,try not to use any us systems on it so they can't blackmail as much as they are definitely going to try to do ,mark my words ,I just got a cold shiver after reading what matt00773 said somehow, don't get me wrong I like America and how they've help UK etc but when comes to business the US will want to be ruling the show ,and it's just up to UK to say sod off
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Cooper »

Jensy wrote: 29 Jul 2022, 17:54 Though my main point was that Italy would appear to be getting serious about their role in the programme.
Once Tempest goes into the full scale development & production phase, the UK will be doing the heavy lifting when it comes to funding. Something close to £10bn has been earmarked for Tempest, after the main gate decision in 2024/2025.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Caribbean »

Jensy wrote: 29 Jul 2022, 17:54 Though my main point was that Italy would appear to be getting serious about their role in the programme.
When they joined the project, Italy committed EUR 2 billion to Tempest - is this genuine new money, or is it moving some of that previous commitment to the left?
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

The US didn’t export F22, and unless something radical changes I cannot see them sharing its successor.
I also question whether they really have an interest in “dominating the aerospace market”. There are many countries that are not allowed to buy F35 - including Turkey. if European suppliers didn’t exist they’d be. buying chinese.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SD67 wrote: 30 Jul 2022, 12:40 The US didn’t export F22, and unless something radical changes
Maybe lessons learned from the F-22 will make them relent and offer up its successor for export, to select allied countries...and there will only be a few that could afford it, anyway.

Only producing them in such low volume, with no prospect of export sales, they had to cut the numbers purchased to such a low level, by US standards, that they've been practically useless for their intended purpose since entering service.

Using F-22s to drop bombs on insurgents in Syria, I venture to guess, was not part of the plan they had for the platform!

Overall, I'd say the F-22 has been a very poor value, low bang for the buck aircraft for the US.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Timmymagic »

Suspect this is a story based just on some offhand comments from the US defence attache..

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/h ... r-programs
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by matt00773 »

Timmymagic wrote: 31 Jul 2022, 11:51 Suspect this is a story based just on some offhand comments from the US defence attache..

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/h ... r-programs
Very long and detailed article but filled with nonsense also:

"While the United Kingdom is currently seeking to reinvigorate its own combat aviation industry, and to move away from simply ‘buying American,’ it remains to be seen how viable this goal is."

I'm sure the UKs doctrine of "buying American" all the time must have really hindered it's role in development of Typhoon, F-35, Tornado etc.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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F35 is American!

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Caribbean »

Not entirely
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SW1 »

Caribbean wrote: 01 Aug 2022, 11:34Not entirely
try changing or adding something without there say so! Bet u don’t get very far.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Caribbean »

SW1 wrote: 01 Aug 2022, 11:39 try changing or adding something without there say so! Bet u don’t get very far
But that wasn't the point - the UK did have quite a role in developing the fundamental technology that was used in the F35. Our "£2 billion investment" in the F35 program, that got us Tier 1 status, was mainly the value of the IP that we brought to the project
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SW1 »

Caribbean wrote: 01 Aug 2022, 13:17
SW1 wrote: 01 Aug 2022, 11:39 try changing or adding something without there say so! Bet u don’t get very far
But that wasn't the point - the UK did have quite a role in developing the fundamental technology that was used in the F35. Our "£2 billion investment" in the F35 program, that got us Tier 1 status, was mainly the value of the IP that we brought to the project

Well it is, it is a buy American fighter project if you are subservient to the US for changes, testing and assembly of the aircraft then it’s not yours as we have done with all our intelligence gathering aircraft and most of the helicopter fleet now too.

Tier 1 was for system demonstration only. Our tech was most around vtol as the alternative engine was abandoned but it was run thru design reviews in Fort Worth.

Hence the point of tempest and why Japan keen full autonomy to do what u like with it and why there not keen on US involvement.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Caribbean »

So, according to you, everything is 100% American. We had no input into the design, aren't a Tier 1 partner, manufacture none of the components and make/ have made absolutely no money out of sales?
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Caribbean wrote: 01 Aug 2022, 16:52 So, according to you, everything is 100% American. We had no input into the design, aren't a Tier 1 partner, manufacture none of the components and make/ have made absolutely no money out of sales?
No that’s your poor interpretation of what I said.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Jake1992 »

I wouldn’t want the US anywhere near Tempest for multiple reasons -

They’ll likely take control if this becomes a joint project put our priorities second to theirs.

Tech transfer has often seen us give more than we get.

If US tech is used in Tempesr that could give them veto on any exports they don’t agree with, it could also leave us reliant on them for any updates to said tech.

I just get horrible flashes of TRS1 with this sort of talk. If we can bring Japan in to make it a full joint project along with Italy and Sweden Tempest is in very good shape while keeping us as the senior partner.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Caribbean »

SW1 wrote: 01 Aug 2022, 17:43 No that’s your poor interpretation of what I said.
Then you made your point very poorly indeed and, from your response, clearly misunderstood mine.

But never mind. It's happened before
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by matt00773 »

Another article on the prospect of US / UK collaboration but from an Asian perspective.

https://eurasiantimes.com/top-usaf-offi ... -programs/

Not sure if I agree with this quote:

'“It’s worth pointing out how NGAD and BAE System’s “Team Tempest” are two separate efforts. But they have bleeding-edge design and engineering processes in common that will revolutionize global aerospace and maybe the rest of global manufacturing. One point of cooperation I can imagine the NGAD program and Tempest will benefit is a common engine type.

The NGAD seeks to launch a sixth-generation fighter and its accompanying UAVs in less than a decade so that the F-22 is retired sooner rather than later. Having a Rolls-Royce engine for it–Rolls-Royce is part of Team Tempest after all–saves a lot of time and smoothens the interdependence with a key ally”, said Miguel Miranda, a Philippines-based military and defense analyst.
'
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by matt00773 »

BAE Systems is launching a major recruitment drive for 1,000 engineers to help build the Tempest fighter jet:

BAE Systems launches recruitment drive for Tempest fighter jet

https://www.aero-mag.com/tempest-fighte ... s-02082022
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

Given the timelines and the scale of the project BAE may as well start their own Technical University, now. Train them up. Any 50 year old who joins the project will be retired before IOC.

Alot of CAD on T45 was done in Slovakia

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Caribbean »

It would certainly seem like a good idea to team up with some academic institutions. There are a lot of good Universities in the North
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