Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
Timmymagic
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

Looks like the Italian sale of 24 x Typhoon to Egypt is coming close to completion...good news for Leonardo and BAE, probably MBDA as well...

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/egyp ... v40mfjf45k

This means that the order, and near certain order, books for Typhoon are fairly healthy...

28 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Germany under Project Quadriga
24 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Egypt
15 x Typhoon ECR to Germany
Up to 50 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Germany to replace non-nuclear Tornado
20 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Spain under Project Halcon, to replace oldest EF-18
Total - 87 to 137 Typhoon, including new ECR variant

Orders still being built...
28 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Kuwait
24 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Qatar
Total - 52 Typhoon

Potential Orders...in order of probability..
30 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Spain - a possibility, to replace remaining EF-18 fleet.
48 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Saudi Arabia - still in the works allegedly, but very quiet..
? x Typhoon Tranche 1 (second hand) to Serbia - a possibility, probably no more than 12-16
? x Typhoon Tranche 1 (second hand) to Indonesia - a possibility, probably no more than 12-16
Total - 78 Typhoon and re-sale of max. 32 Tranche 1 Typhoon

Now if only the RAF would tag an order on for 24 x Typhoon ECR to keep Warton happly ticking over until Tempest...
All in all its not bad going, should keep the companies going until at least 2030, if not on full assembly but component production.
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Cooper »

Timmymagic wrote: 07 Jun 2022, 14:26 Meanwhile.... Typhoon and F-22 can happily supercruise with max A2A loadouts at m1.6 and above at altitudes the others can't approach....it's a colossal advantage but never gets remarked on, far more useful tactically than how quickly you can turn down low and slow...
..And yet no one seems to put much importance on the ability when it comes to countries evaluating the Typhoon for purchase. Can't say any country that contemplated buying the Typhoon has ever said Supercruise ability was a facto when choosing, and it certainly hasn't stopped countries going with Rafales over Typhoons in the past.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

Cooper wrote: 07 Jun 2022, 16:21 ..And yet no one seems to put much importance on the ability when it comes to countries evaluating the Typhoon for purchase. Can't say any country that contemplated buying the Typhoon has ever said Supercruise ability was a facto when choosing, and it certainly hasn't stopped countries going with Rafales over Typhoons in the past.
I suspect they don't know what they're missing...
Its similar to how some people still say that Rafale is a superior multirole fighter...how do they work that out? Its got a far smaller selection of weaponry available for both A2A and A2G, its targeting pod selection is inferior, ability to self escort is lower....and Typhoon has undertaken way more actual combat missions that Rafale ever has..

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by SD67 »

Timmymagic wrote: 07 Jun 2022, 14:40 Looks like the Italian sale of 24 x Typhoon to Egypt is coming close to completion...good news for Leonardo and BAE, probably MBDA as well...

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/egyp ... v40mfjf45k

This means that the order, and near certain order, books for Typhoon are fairly healthy...

28 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Germany under Project Quadriga
24 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Egypt
15 x Typhoon ECR to Germany
Up to 50 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Germany to replace non-nuclear Tornado
20 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Spain under Project Halcon, to replace oldest EF-18
Total - 87 to 137 Typhoon, including new ECR variant

Orders still being built...
28 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Kuwait
24 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Qatar
Total - 52 Typhoon

Potential Orders...in order of probability..
30 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Spain - a possibility, to replace remaining EF-18 fleet.
48 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Saudi Arabia - still in the works allegedly, but very quiet..
? x Typhoon Tranche 1 (second hand) to Serbia - a possibility, probably no more than 12-16
? x Typhoon Tranche 1 (second hand) to Indonesia - a possibility, probably no more than 12-16
Total - 78 Typhoon and re-sale of max. 32 Tranche 1 Typhoon

Now if only the RAF would tag an order on for 24 x Typhoon ECR to keep Warton happly ticking over until Tempest...
All in all its not bad going, should keep the companies going until at least 2030, if not on full assembly but component production.
I'm kind of wondering what smaller western-oriented nations are going to buy in the early 2030s.
The scenario - Country X is not cleared for F35, cannot afford a 6th gen fighter but has a couple of dozen fighters that are wearing out. F18 is long out of production and Typhoon prod ending. Is F16 really going to still be around? Rafale for everyone if they don't want to buy Russian?
Maybe a Tempest-ised Gripen v2.0 with no ITAR restrictions would find a ready market
-

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

Upgraded F-16Vs would still be around and the production line for the Block 70 or further advanced models could still be running, who knows. Then there are the combat versions of the latest supersonic trainers either entering service or that soon will be, basically being the 21st Century F-5s. A further upgraded Gripen would be an option depending on how and when Sweden carries out a similar programme.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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I'm not going to update the list....but a Turkish delegation has been in the UK talking to us about Typhoon....

It sounds like a courtesy visit with a side aim of pressurising the US from dragging their feet on F-16V sales and an upgrade package for other aircraft, or it could possibly represent a genuine interest given recent events, and possibly a more realistic idea on when TFX will be available, to purchase a top end air superiority fighter to complement their large F-16 fleet. I think its the former rather than the latter...but its worth noting.

The below is from the MiddleEastEye Editor, reasonably reliable but definitely from a more Turkish government aligned view.



Article Text
The Turkish government may be interested in buying Eurofighter Typhoon warplanes if its F-16 purchase request from the United States doesn’t progress, sources familiar with the issue told Middle East Eye.

Turkish Air Force Commander General Hasan Kucukakyuz last month visited the United Kingdom, the main producer in the Eurofighter consortium, and met Royal Air Force Commander Marshal Sir Mike Wingston.

Kucukakyuz also inspected the UK Quick Reaction Alert that flies with Typhoon aircraft.

'[Eurofighter Typhoons] could be a stop-gap option until we get the fifth generation and locally produced TF-X in our hands'

- Turkish government source

“The Typhoons are very good, in excellent quality,” one source familiar with the internal considerations of the Turkish government told MEE.

“They could be a stop-gap option until we get the fifth generation and locally produced TF-X in our hands, of course, if we cannot get the F-16s.”

In September, Turkey sent a letter of request on 40 F-16s and 80 modernisation kits to the US government after getting kicked out of the F-35 programme more than two years ago due to its purchase of the S-400 Russian missile defence system.

Turkish officials say the US government encouraged them to make the request after contacting a junior Turkish diplomat in Washington to pass the information.

“They even knew how many jets we are in need of and said ‘why don’t you make a request and see what happens?’" a senior Turkish official told MEE.

Ankara has been slow to submit the necessary paperwork but the people in Washington who closely follow the issue told MEE that US President Joe Biden would back the request so it is very likely that the deal will get through the US Congress, despite its generally unsympathetic stance on Turkey.

F-16 sale to Turkey would serve Nato interests, says US official

People familiar with the issue said the F-16 request may get through Congress after the June 2023 Turkish presidential elections, since the Biden administration wouldn’t like to appear as if it is doing favours for Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan's administration.

However Turkey’s recent threats of a military operation against Kurdish groups in northern Syria as well as Erdogan's veto on Sweden and Finland’s Nato membership might complicate the whole process and Turkey might not get the F-16s for a long time.

“The UK has been trying to sell the Typhoon aircraft to Turkey for a long time,” Ozgur Eksi, editor-in-chief of the defence website TurDef.com, said.

“Italy, as part of the consortium, also tried its best a decade ago but couldn’t convince the Turks at the time who were focused on getting the American hardware.”

'Proven track record'

An opinion article that appeared on Turkish government-aligned Daily Sabah over the weekend said that the Eurofighter, which is produced by a consortium of the UK, Germany, Spain and Italy, “has a proven track record and is the backbone of the Allied air defence.”

The article claimed that F-16 approval is a coin toss and the Eurofighter is the best option for the Turkish military going forward.

“Since its maiden flight in 1994, the Typhoon has been modernised and upgraded to be the most advanced swing-role fighter jet on the market,” the article said.

“Its airframe has been designed to reduce radar cross-section and upgrades are enhancing the stealthy features of the aircraft. Sensor fusion, high situational awareness, cutting-edge avionics and electronics, super-cruise capability, and sovereignty over mission data, would provide the Turkish Air Force with a competitive advantage.”

Asked about a possible deal to sell Eurofighter Typhoon warplanes to Turkey, a UK Ministry of Defence spokesperson said: “Turkey is a Nato ally and an important friend to the UK. The UK regularly has conversations with Turkey about capability cooperation, just as we have similar conversations with other allies.”

A possible deal would need to get approval from Germany, Spain and Italy as well. Turkish-German ties are often fraught and Berlin has a traditionally cautious approach to Turkish weapons requests as it is still blocking the exports of some key materials for the Turkish arms industry.

The UK last month completely lifted all of restrictions on the export of defence products to Turkey that were brought in following Ankara's 2019 offensive on northeast Syria.

The source familiar with the Turkish government’s thinking said that the Turkish military could easily adapt itself to Eurofighter platforms but it would still require some legwork. “It isn’t going to be very easy, but compared to a non-Nato system, it will be smooth.”

Eksi, the defence expert, says that Turkey must get its hands on the Eurofighter’s updated and modernised versions such as Tranche 3A or 4. “Otherwise the Turkish military would need to do additional maintenance work on the plane’s bodies and also modernise their avionics,” he added.

Turkey and the UK have close defence relations through their Nato partnership, and there is industrial cooperation as well. UK engine maker Rolls-Royce and its local partner Kale are expected to supply an engine for Ankara's first indigenous fighter jet, the TF-X.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by leonard »

This is the German ESG-Gruppe take on the Eurofighter Typhoon for the electronic atack role for the future Luftwaffe buy in this year ILA 2022 airshow.
Any opinion on this configuration of the Eurofighter is welcome ????

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

leonard wrote: 21 Jun 2022, 16:06 Any opinion on this configuration of the Eurofighter is welcome ????
It's an odd one. It's a single seater for a start. Airbus were wanting to do the ECR as a 2-seater in previous images. It also has the EW pods and tanks in the wrong position. The ECR proposal switched them around to give the EW pods better coverage. This required a modification to the wing to plumb the inner pylons.

It's one of many EW proposals seen at the show..

Leonardo...


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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

Project Halcon, the supply of 20 new Typhoon to Spain to replace the oldest EF-18 is signed.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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https://raf.mod.uk/news/articles/2-35-b ... 0-uk-jobs/

This sees Typhoon enhanced with the latest mission computer and cockpit interface, as well as an improved navigation system and signal jamming technology.

European Common Radar System Mk2 will be delivered into service towards the end of the decade and today’s announcement ensures that the advanced technical skills and expertise needed to develop, integrate and deliver these complex projects remain in the UK and are available to support the Future Combat Air System (FCAS) programme.

The radar is a prime example of the UK’s world-leading onshore technology, being developed by Leonardo UK in Edinburgh and Luton and integrated by BAE Systems in Warton.
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

SW1 wrote: 15 Jul 2022, 11:11 latest mission computer and cockpit interfac
Sounds like the BAE Large Area Display has got the nod as well...apparently it was considered essential alongside Radar 2 to display all of the information gathered effectively.



Suspect Striker II Helmet is involved as well...


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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

Posted by The Lone Ranger over in the Uk Defence and Aerospace Industry thread. But worth reposting here...

From The Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... n-over-oil

Includes this tasty morsel...

"A bigger prize may be in sight. A softening in Germany’s hardline stance against exporting to Saudi Arabia has triggered chatter over various global arms deals. Earlier this month, French media reported that Britain was closing in on an agreement to sell between 48 and 72 BAE Typhoons to the Saudis, four years on from the signing of a memorandum of intent between the nations.

Such a deal could keep its factory at Warton motoring for five years."

This is the long trailed sale of an additional 48 Typhoon to Saudi Arabia that has been in the works for 5 years. Never seen 72 mentioned though...if BAE can land that...that would keep them busy until Tempest takes over (with all the other work from component production for other Eurofighter partners and MLU work).
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by SD67 »

Interesting, Scholz was in Riyadh just recently cosying up to MBS, maybe the deal is back on. Surely the Tornados cannot last forever

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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SD67 wrote: 17 Oct 2022, 14:46 Interesting, Scholz was in Riyadh just recently cosying up to MBS, maybe the deal is back on. Surely the Tornados cannot last forever
Much as I'm not keen on selling to the Saudi's, but at the end of the day we need to...the recent US-Saudi difficulties in the Senate and Congress could work out quite well for BAE and Typhoon.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by SD67 »

Yes - devil you know and all that in the global energy cold war we need all the allies we can get. And they're unlikely to be allowed F35s anytime soon. A Batch 4 Typhoon with all the goodies might fit the bill nicely.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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53 missiles launched in the exercise by Typhoons (and F-35s) :wtf:

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Cooper »

Jdam wrote: 22 Oct 2022, 17:27 53 missiles launched in the exercise by Typhoons (and F-35s) :wtf:
Obviously getting close to their 'Use by' date.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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Cooper wrote: 23 Oct 2022, 11:36
Jdam wrote: 22 Oct 2022, 17:27 53 missiles launched in the exercise by Typhoons (and F-35s) :wtf:
Obviously getting close to their 'Use by' date.
They'll be Block IV Asraam that will be retired for the new production Block VI.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

German typhoons but in interesting option

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... arfare-pod

The joint endeavor will enhance Rafael’s Sky Shield airborne EW pod with Hensoldt’s Kalaetron Attack technology, which combines active electronically-scanned array technology with full digitization and artificial intelligence to create a jamming and electronic attack system that can be used for self-defense or for escort and stand-off jamming. By using 3D metallic printing the Kalaetron Attack package can be made small enough to be accommodated in standard airborne pods. The technology has been undergoing extensive ground trials.

Rafael developed the Sky Shield as an escort jammer system covering frequencies from 1 to 18GHz. It employs a digital radio frequency memory (DRFM) technique generator. The pod uses the same interface as Rafael’s Litening targeting pod, reducing integration time and costs for aircraft that are already cleared to carry Litening, such as the Eurofighter Typhoon.

Saab has also put forward a version of its Electronic Attack Jamming Pod from its Arexis EW family for the Luftwaffe requirement.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

There were some rumours swirling around about the German development and purchase of Typhoon EK (previously called ECR), with some saying Germany was looking again at EF-18. This appears to scotch those completely.



Some other mention of unspecified upgrades to Typhoon in 2032. These might be aimed at closing the gap to FCAS/SCAF arrival.


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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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So updating (and slightly amending) the list...changes in Red since last time...

This means that the order, and near certain order, books for Typhoon are fairly healthy...

Ordered or due to be... - On contract in Bold
28 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Germany under Project Quadriga
24 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Egypt
15 x Typhoon EK to Germany - Now called EK instead of ECR
20 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Spain under Project Halcon, to replace oldest EF-18
Total - 87 Typhoon, including new EK variant

Orders still being built...
28 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Kuwait
24 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Qatar
Total - 52 Typhoon

Potential Orders...in order of probability..
Up to 50 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Germany to replace non-nuclear Tornado - Moved to potential as unclear what Germany is up to...the impact of inflation on the German budget increase has caused issues, still highly likely though
20-40 x Typhoon Tranche 4 to Spain - a possibility, to replace remaining EF-18 fleet. F-35A might be in the running though...requirement could be 20-40 to replace remaining 64 EF-18M
48-72 x Typhoon Tranche 3 to Saudi Arabia - still in the works allegedly, but very quiet.. - Added in 72 as increased buy has been mentioned.
Total - 118-162 x Typhoon

Removed
? x Typhoon Tranche 1 (second hand) to Serbia - a possibility, probably no more than 12-16. Unlikely given current developments.
? x Typhoon Tranche 1 (second hand) to Indonesia - a possibility, probably no more than 12-16. These were the Austrian Typhoon Tranche 1. Indications are that Austria intends to retain until 2030 and replace with F-35A (if the US will allow them...).
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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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These customers all have something in common - they're either a Typhoon Industrial partner, or they're not cleared to operate F-35 :-)

I understand that one airframe per month, (or substantial part thereof) is the bare minimum to keep a production line going. So 118 already booked could in theory just about take Wharton out to Tempest production start if it were stretched out. But in reality what's been ordered so far is for delivery before 2030, then there's a risk that those potentials in group B quietly get converted to F35 orders. The Saudi Tranche 2 would sort it though, profit on that would basically pay for Tempest.

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Re: Eurofighter Typhoon (RAF)

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SD67 wrote: 17 Nov 2022, 08:40 These customers all have something in common - they're either a Typhoon Industrial partner, or they're not cleared to operate F-35 :-)

I understand that one airframe per month, (or substantial part thereof) is the bare minimum to keep a production line going. So 118 already booked could in theory just about take Wharton out to Tempest production start if it were stretched out. But in reality what's been ordered so far is for delivery before 2030, then there's a risk that those potentials in group B quietly get converted to F35 orders. The Saudi Tranche 2 would sort it though, profit on that would basically pay for Tempest.
Depends which production line. Dassault kept Rafale going on a trickle. The Spanish production line has also only built 74 Typhoon in total over the years. Warton needs to be busier though...

It's not 118 booked as orders. It's the first group of figures. So 72 aircraft on new contracts, with the remainder of the Kuwaiti order (final assembly in Italy) and Qatari order (final assembly in Warton) underway as well, the German order for 15 EK variant isn't signed yet but was reaffirmed as the intention in the last couple of days. That would take it to 87.

Warton at present has the remainder of the Qatari order, but then has Typhoon MLU work for the UK. Not new construction but 40 Tranche 3 to be updated. I suspect the Saudi's 71 and Omani's 12 Typhoon will also get the upgrades. I'm giving up hope on the remaining RAF Tranche 2's getting an upgrade...just can't see it with the present government or economics (even though industrially it makes a lot of sense, see below). They'll also have substantial work from F-35 and a good chunk of the sub-assemblies (including wing and rear fuselage) for the 72 aircraft on order (which are not getting their final assembly at Warton) . Obviously any additional orders received, including the 15 German EK variants, will give Warton additional work. The real prize though is the Saudi order for 48 or, potentially, 72 Typhoon. That gets Warton over the hill to Tempest (which although it won't start production immediately after will require substantial re-tooling, re-training and preparation).

Obviously if all 249 on the ordered and potential list came good then Warton would be sitting very pretty for the next 30 years (with Tempest as well..). My worry is that if the Saudi order does not come in we could be looking at a similar situation as Barrow in Furness did with nuclear subs, a lack of work leads to a decline in skills that then impact costs and timelines on the next programme significantly, as it did with Astute. The smart solution then, which naturally the government would be loath to take, would be to update all the UK's Tranche 2 or build a batch of Tranche 4 or EK variant for the RAF (it might even need both of those measures to bridge the gap).

When it comes to re-sale of Typhoon there have been lots of rumours (Serbia, Indonesia, Bangladesh...). But the really sensible move for all partner nations is to gift their Tranche 1 Typhoon's on retirement to Ukraine, there could be close to 100 of them...massive uplift for them, allows them to replace their SU-27 (which they have struggled to keep airborne pre-war, which will be knackered by wars end and depleted) pulls them further into the West (hopefully EU and NATO), Western weapon supplies and parts pipelines, helps protect NATO's flank by default and....would provide some maintenance and upgrade revenues for years to come from redundant assets that otherwise would be scrapped. It's also the only real source of high end air-to-air platforms that will be available in the next 10 years at a non-prohibitive costs (I'm discounting US F-15 as fatigue must play against them).
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