Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
motiv
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by motiv »

Bit of an opinion article here
https://www.19fortyfive.com/2022/05/tem ... ll-it-fly/

Also, thanks for the replies. So it looks like end of the Oct 2024/early 2025 for the next phase to be done.

I've been reading RR is back in talks with Turkey again other their 5th Gen engine procurement. It could possibly help finance Tempests own engine, although the arguments seem to be back to IP with them both.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Does anyone know off the top of their head when the Radar test plane will begin flying?

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Jensy
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Meanwhile, in the other camp...

https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/eu ... 70.article

Airbus Defence & Space and Dassault Aviation were due to sign a contract in 2021 covering the creation of a demonstrator aircraft for the New Generation Fighter (NGF) being developed for France, Germany and Spain as part of the wider Future Combat Air System (FCAS) programme.
Image
While FCAS was originally a Franco-German project, the admission of Spain in 2019 has ratcheted up the tension, particularly on the NGF, where Airbus represents now both Berlin and Madrid.

“It is not only a political issue it is also a matter of sharing the work between Airbus and Dassault,” says Trappier.

“We have made big efforts, [but] as far as Dassault is concerned we have only one-third of the job. We are the prime architect taking overall responsibility in front of the defence ministries and want to be capable to take this responsibility without Airbus always saying they want to do more.”

Dassault’s main objection is the insistence that intellectual property relating to flight-control software be shared among the partners. But Trappier points out that the system for the NGF demonstrator will be an “off-the-shelf” solution, derived from a Falcon business jet.

“Why should we share our technology on the Falcon with Airbus? Airbus in Toulouse knows perfectly well how to develop flight controls,” he argues.

However, with Germany and Spain likely to insist on full co-operation – or at least access to the technology – on the flight-control system for any future production aircraft, this appears likely to remain a thorny issue.

Tension is also likely to be stoked by the fact that Dassault’s Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon – for which Airbus is the flight-control provider – remain rivals for fifth-generation fighter sales, with neither side willing to cede any perceived advantage.
If I were to be cruel/frank, I'd point out that neither the Typhoon nor the Rafale have won a single open contest against the F-35, which remains the only Western '5th Gen' combat aircraft on the market. Indeed three of the Eurofighter nations have already ordered F-35s to complement their Typhoon fleets, with Spain having expressed interest too.
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SD67
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Let’s face it Dassault’s core market is “people not allowed to buy the JSF”.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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If recent events with Russia haven't helped move the FCAS along then the only thing that will ever do it is sheer stubbornness not to fall behind the Tempest program.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Yep, it must be a tough call for Dassault - do they share their technology with Airbus DE, or just cut out the middleman and email the blueprints directly to the Kremlin
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motiv
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by motiv »

Some stuff from Janes

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... ty-in-2035
“This will be a decade-long window to deliver the Tempest capability in half the time of a comparable programme, such as the Eurofighter, which took nearly 20 years,” Stocker said. “That phase of the programme from 2025 to [delivering the capability in] 2035 is a 10-year challenge.”

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Timmymagic »

For lovers of French and German spats....looks like SCAF might not be ready before 2050...if it ever happens

Things are not happy in SCAF world...I imagine BAE Systems and Leonardo are laughing themselves silly...




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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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I think Dassault sees Rafale cleaning up in the mid 2030s when virtually every other Western jet is out of production then they build SCAF themselves. It's not a bad business strategy- why rush if the thing is still selling?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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By doing that the French would basically have to develop SCAF on their own. Can they afford to do so? And yes they may sell more Rafales, which would become the F-16 for the 2040s onwards but the French Air Force would be flying a Gen 2.5 aircraft as its most advanced platform when many others would be flying Gen 6 or at least Gen 5 aircraft.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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It'll be fascinating to see this play out. I get the feeling that the interests of Dassault the company (still 62% family owned) are not exactly aligned to those the French state. The family alone are worth of 20 billion +, that's alot of "F off" power.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Lord Jim

The Rafales, were 4th. Generation aircraft when first operational, with the latest upgrade 4.5 generation.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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At best now Russia will be fielding low numbers of 5th gen jets by the 2030 and the way things are going for them things wont improve into the 2040's the French if needed could go for a small buy of 50 F-35C for there carriers making the job of a land based 5 gen jet easier

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Really after there performance in Ukraine, talking about Russia fielding even 4th gen aircraft in the 2030s will be a stretch!. Aerospace supply chains in the west are falling apart at present, russias will be worse and for longer.

motiv
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Tempest414 wrote: 10 Jun 2022, 11:21 At best now Russia will be fielding low numbers of 5th gen jets by the 2030 and the way things are going for them things wont improve into the 2040's the French if needed could go for a small buy of 50 F-35C for there carriers making the job of a land based 5 gen jet easier
France will never buy any F35s. That's just not going to happen.

I think we'll be seeing quite a lot of Chinese and Russian "5th gen" jets being sold by 2030, these won't be a match for the F35 or any western 5th/6th gens, but they'll be good against gen 4.5.

I'm quite nationalistic when it comes to Tempest, I'll wave the flags of all those countries involved. So to me, seeing the FCAS falter, so publicly, is music to my ears.

Well, especially as friends and family work for BAE.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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motiv wrote: 10 Jun 2022, 14:28
Tempest414 wrote: 10 Jun 2022, 11:21 At best now Russia will be fielding low numbers of 5th gen jets by the 2030 and the way things are going for them things wont improve into the 2040's the French if needed could go for a small buy of 50 F-35C for there carriers making the job of a land based 5 gen jet easier
France will never buy any F35s. That's just not going to happen.

I think we'll be seeing quite a lot of Chinese and Russian "5th gen" jets being sold by 2030, these won't be a match for the F35 or any western 5th/6th gens, but they'll be good against gen 4.5.

I'm quite nationalistic when it comes to Tempest, I'll wave the flags of all those countries involved. So to me, seeing the FCAS falter, so publicly, is music to my ears.

Well, especially as friends and family work for BAE.
Never say never they will buy what they need when they need it just like everyone else. The thing is right now they don't need it

China may have a 5th gen export fighter by the 2030's but who will buy it ?

Yes we all have high hopes for Tempest and are willing it over the line

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Lord Jim »

Sorry, that was a typo on my behalf, yes I meant to say Gen 4.5.

As for teh next generation of combat aircraft, they need to work with the Chinese who through copying and/or stealing western technology have managed to develop an advanced electronics industry able to produce modern and effective avionics and weapon systems. they may not be up to US standard but they are more advanced then the Russians in these areas now.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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motiv wrote: 10 Jun 2022, 14:28 I think we'll be seeing quite a lot of Chinese and Russian "5th gen" jets being sold by 2030
Chinese perhaps. But Russian? I'd say its close to zero now. SU-57 failed at the first hurdle with India and will struggle to get funds allocated to it. SU-75 is utterly dependent on foreign monies and orders. There is close to zero chance of anyone committing now.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Lord Jim wrote: 10 Jun 2022, 00:47 By doing that the French would basically have to develop SCAF on their own. Can they afford to do so?
In isolation, I'd suggest they would. However when combined with the future MBT, the new French carrier and SSNB replacement that's a lot of commitment over the next two decades.

To flip the question, do Germany and Spain have the desire or money to pursue a joint 5-6th generation aircraft? I'd say no.

With both looking to additional Typhoons, the former acquiring F-35A, and Spain likely looking at the B model to replace their small force of Harriers I'd say they're pretty well sorted till at least 2040, if not 2050.

On a personal note I'd consider the failure to build a direct Tornado replacement to have probably contributed to the Tempest/SCAF split as much as Brexit. However with the global financial crisis, Germany's culture of rejecting offensive platforms and the UK/Italy buying F-35 such a project never stood a chance.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Well apart from Jaguar they’ve developed everything else on their own, and sold mostly outside Europe, “solo SCAF” would be business as usual. Maybe India comes in attracted by the nuclear angle

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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I would have no issue with both Germany and Spain joining the development phase of Tempest. It would be the production phase where I would want to lock both down to whatever number they decided to purchase to ensure we did not repeat the issues that arose in the Eurofighter programme. I see these two phases of Tempest as separate so Germany could contribute to teh development side with no commitment to buy the platform at the end, like Sweden appears to be at present.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Lord Jim wrote: 11 Jun 2022, 23:26 It would be the production phase where I would want to lock both down to whatever number they decided to purchase to ensure we did not repeat the issues that arose in the Eurofighter programme.
To an extent that actually happened in Eurofighter. The German's had to compensate the UK in particular due to their reduced buy, however it did lead to some rancour and court cases...which the UK won.

The great irony is of course that Germany's proposed Project Quadriga orders, ECR orders and the 3rd order for up to 50 additional Tranche 4's will take them way beyond their original planned purchase to become by far the biggest user....

The real issue with Germany is political will to move rapidly through development and production stages and further development and to provide the monies to do so. This is where you would need to concentrate on drawing up a contract with them....its where the real cost growth and time delays in Typhoon development happened and where development and fielding of Typhoon (including de-scoping), and its export sales, were really hobbled...I think we all forget how close Typhoon came to not happening in the 90's due to Germany.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Jensy wrote: 11 Jun 2022, 17:03 In isolation, I'd suggest they would. However when combined with the future MBT, the new French carrier and SSNB replacement that's a lot of commitment over the next two decades.
It's worth remembering that there were some calculations/reports produced that showed that the Eurofighter Typhoon could have been developed by the UK alone for less than the total monies that the UK had to inject into the programme for its initial 35% share, with far greater industrial benefits for the UK. Even with the learnings from the Panavia programme the multinational nature of the programme injected huge cost, time delays and de-scoping into the programme...perhas we should have gone it alone....

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SD67 wrote: 11 Jun 2022, 21:15 Well apart from Jaguar they’ve developed everything else on their own, and sold mostly outside Europe, “solo SCAF” would be business as usual. Maybe India comes in attracted by the nuclear angle
India has had a painful time with the learning experience that was Tejas, but in doing so they have learned the basics to build fighter jets themselves and learnt the mistakes of why it went so wrong for them. They have developed a lot of intellectual property for themselves which they are applying into the upgrades of Jaguars, Su30MKIs etc.

I don't see India buying any 5th or 6th gen platform from anyone else - they are quite determined to do that platform on their own with their AMCA - and India is approaching the point where it will/want to break free of France and their very expensive products

India was an investor in the SU-57 programme before they pulled out due to performance issues and India has a strong make-in-India mentality now.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Lord Jim wrote: 11 Jun 2022, 23:26 I would have no issue with both Germany and Spain joining the development phase of Tempest. It would be the production phase where I would want to lock both down to whatever number they decided to purchase to ensure we did not repeat the issues that arose in the Eurofighter programme. I see these two phases of Tempest as separate so Germany could contribute to teh development side with no commitment to buy the platform at the end, like Sweden appears to be at present.
Honestly - there is nothing that Germany brings to the table that the UK requires from Germany and the Germans and French are alongside the most problemmatic defence partners in the whole of the Europe. Honestly - best avoiding the ball-ache their involvement would bring on ones self ...
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