Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
TheLoneRanger
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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matt00773 wrote: 06 Mar 2022, 13:29 the CEO of Dassault seems to think co-partnering is completely off the table - they just want other people's money.
Given how large Airbus is - playing second fiddle in this way to French is not on the agenda for them. So things may come to pass and France may have to go it alone or try and keep it going with the Spanish ...

I dont want Germany to get involved in Tempest based on their previous Eurofighter behaviour - on anything other than an end user/customer to buy Tempest as an off the shelf product.

Given what Dassualt wants - Germany is better off saving the "development" cash if it is not going to get the technology and use that development money to buy "more Tempests" than they could if they spent the cash on development aswell as manufacturing.

As a side note - the Indians tend be as arrogant and finicky to work with as the French on military development projects - so it is a partnership made in heaven for the both of them?!?!
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by motiv »

Whatever France can do, it seems the UK can do also.

What with joint engine development with Japan, it seems RR is back to making Engines for Turkey and their 5th Gen T-FX jet.

https://www.dailysabah.com/business/def ... aft-engine
Stating that there is an alternative engine option in addition to the F-110 engine to be supplied from the U.S., Demir noted: “We also had the possibility of working with Rolls-Royce for the engine."

“We previously had some concerns (about this cooperation),” he said; however, the company resolved these concerns as a result of the meetings held.

“The work has begun,” he added.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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motiv wrote: 07 Mar 2022, 21:08 Whatever France can do, it seems the UK can do also.

What with joint engine development with Japan, it seems RR is back to making Engines for Turkey and their 5th Gen T-FX jet.

https://www.dailysabah.com/business/def ... aft-engine
Stating that there is an alternative engine option in addition to the F-110 engine to be supplied from the U.S., Demir noted: “We also had the possibility of working with Rolls-Royce for the engine."

“We previously had some concerns (about this cooperation),” he said; however, the company resolved these concerns as a result of the meetings held.

“The work has begun,” he added.
There are "rumours" ( for what they are worth ) that Turkey is looking to buy Eurofighters to offset the Rafale purchase by the Greeks as attempts to buy new F16s Block 70s and V variant upgrades are going nowhere fast...

http://www.opex360.com/2022/03/10/la-tu ... r-typhoon/

So BAe UK could be getting alot closer to Turkey as their interests start to align.

(update : looks like the original information was posted already - i am just late to the game !!! )
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Well, cat amongst the pigeons.

The question will be how is this going to affect Germany's needs in FCAS now.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ge ... 022-03-14/

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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motiv wrote: 14 Mar 2022, 13:06 Well, cat amongst the pigeons.

The question will be how is this going to affect Germany's needs in FCAS now.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ge ... 022-03-14/
It shouldn't at all. The nuclear capable Tornado were always going to be replaced well before FCAS (which won't be capable of B-61/12 delivery). It might actually make an entry to service easier as one of the FCAS partners will have actually operated an LO platform by 2040...

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Timmymagic wrote: 14 Mar 2022, 13:49
It shouldn't at all. The nuclear capable Tornado were always going to be replaced well before FCAS (which won't be capable of B-61/12 delivery). It might actually make an entry to service easier as one of the FCAS partners will have actually operated an LO platform by 2040...

The reason I believe this is bad for SCAF is Germany will now have a 5th Gen plane, an ability to purchase more, and that means leverage when discussing work share in SCAF now.

SCAF is struggling with politics and this will only make it worse.

While all of this is happening, team tempest continues to move forward. WE'll have an export version before France/Germany/Spain have left the negotiating table on who does what.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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jonas wrote: 15 Mar 2022, 14:45 Commons answers 14th March :-

https://questions-statements.parliament ... -08/136556
Why do I get the feeling that when they say a further 1 Bn, they mean it is 1bn from the FCAS program, that they've just reallocated to the “Northern Powerhouse”, and not extra funding at all.

It allows politicians to say how they've spent £x Bn on “Levelling up”, when nothing was actually spent that would have otherwise.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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I can't say I know this publication well enough to judge the accuracy of this article:

https://eurasiantimes.com/jolt-for-brit ... aly-japan/

However, I seriously doubt that Italy would jump ship. Especially considering the rather public upset that Italy had about not being invited to be a founding partner in SCAF.

I suspect more likely it's a bilateral agreement that will tie into the wider 'Tempest ecosystem'. Between MBDA and Leonardo there's already the potential for synergy with the joint UK-Japanese projects.

A somewhat easier to read, but slimmed down version of the article:

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wi ... a-84031321

As it happens, the Japanese PM is in Downing Street today, and even getting a personal flyover:


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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Jensy wrote: 05 May 2022, 09:36 I can't say I know this publication well enough to judge the accuracy of this article:
Eurasian Times is about as reliable and well researched as The National Interest or Sputnik.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pm-m ... 5-may-2022

On the UK’s Future Combat Air System (FCAS), both leaders agreed the UK and Japan were making significant progress, and the Prime Minister welcomed Prime Minister Kishida’s view that the project could become the cornerstone of the UK-Japan bilateral relationship.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Timmymagic wrote: 05 May 2022, 14:22 Eurasian Times is about as reliable and well researched as The National Interest or Sputnik.
I suspected as much. Sometimes seeing it being referenced on Twitter by people with fairly anti-Western views.
SW1 wrote: 05 May 2022, 19:45 On the UK’s Future Combat Air System (FCAS), both leaders agreed the UK and Japan were making significant progress, and the Prime Minister welcomed Prime Minister Kishida’s view that the project could become the cornerstone of the UK-Japan bilateral relationship.
That's quite a big aspiration. Starting to wonder if this could even see collaboration on a common airframe if the stars align right.

I'm not particularly well versed on the F-X but understand it's aiming for a heavy stand-off payload, long range and the capability to overmatch hostile stealth aircraft. Not exactly a world away from our own stated intents for a Typhoon replacement.

With two of the Tempest partners also being F-35b, STOVL carrier and Meteor (current variant) users like Japan there's a lot of potential synergy between us.

Trying to undercut NGAD, which is sounding ever more expensive, could even offer high-end export opportunities (assuming Congress would even allow its sale).

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Jensy wrote: 06 May 2022, 00:42
Timmymagic wrote: 05 May 2022, 14:22 Eurasian Times is about as reliable and well researched as The National Interest or Sputnik.
I suspected as much. Sometimes seeing it being referenced on Twitter by people with fairly anti-Western views.
SW1 wrote: 05 May 2022, 19:45 On the UK’s Future Combat Air System (FCAS), both leaders agreed the UK and Japan were making significant progress, and the Prime Minister welcomed Prime Minister Kishida’s view that the project could become the cornerstone of the UK-Japan bilateral relationship.
That's quite a big aspiration. Starting to wonder if this could even see collaboration on a common airframe if the stars align right.

I'm not particularly well versed on the F-X but understand it's aiming for a heavy stand-off payload, long range and the capability to overmatch hostile stealth aircraft. Not exactly a world away from our own stated intents for a Typhoon replacement.

With two of the Tempest partners also being F-35b, STOVL carrier and Meteor (current variant) users like Japan there's a lot of potential synergy between us.

Trying to undercut NGAD, which is sounding ever more expensive, could even offer high-end export opportunities (assuming Congress would even allow its sale).
If you end up with the same engine and both decide for a twin you will invariably end up with a similar inlet design and configuration, so a chunk of it would be the same because the flow conditions to the front fan needs to be consistent. You can of course have different sub systems elsewhere. But weight equals cost in aircraft anything big and heavy will cost.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SW1 wrote: 06 May 2022, 07:51
Jensy wrote: 06 May 2022, 00:42
Timmymagic wrote: 05 May 2022, 14:22 Eurasian Times is about as reliable and well researched as The National Interest or Sputnik.
I suspected as much. Sometimes seeing it being referenced on Twitter by people with fairly anti-Western views.
SW1 wrote: 05 May 2022, 19:45 On the UK’s Future Combat Air System (FCAS), both leaders agreed the UK and Japan were making significant progress, and the Prime Minister welcomed Prime Minister Kishida’s view that the project could become the cornerstone of the UK-Japan bilateral relationship.
That's quite a big aspiration. Starting to wonder if this could even see collaboration on a common airframe if the stars align right.

I'm not particularly well versed on the F-X but understand it's aiming for a heavy stand-off payload, long range and the capability to overmatch hostile stealth aircraft. Not exactly a world away from our own stated intents for a Typhoon replacement.

With two of the Tempest partners also being F-35b, STOVL carrier and Meteor (current variant) users like Japan there's a lot of potential synergy between us.

Trying to undercut NGAD, which is sounding ever more expensive, could even offer high-end export opportunities (assuming Congress would even allow its sale).
If you end up with the same engine and both decide for a twin you will invariably end up with a similar inlet design and configuration, so a chunk of it would be the same because the flow conditions to the front fan needs to be consistent. You can of course have different sub systems elsewhere. But weight equals cost in aircraft anything big and heavy will cost.
If it uses the same engines and the same radar (the Jaguar project) and the same long range missile (JNAAM) then it may as well be the same aircraft.
Maybe the best way to go for Tempest, at the end of the Concept and Assessment phase is just a straight UK-Japan joint venture. The Italian government hasn't really covered themselves in glory over Ukraine.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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One of reasons why the 787 has had deliveries suspended for a year is due to Italian aerospace suppliers and there ability to not follow engineering processes!
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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https://www.sankei.com/article/20220514 ... DCFAIAOZU/

https://www.yomiuri.co.jp/politics/20220514-OYT1T50139/

There're already announcements that the UK and Japan will be collaborating on their next gen fighter engine and RF sensor, however today's releases from Japanese media indicate that the bilateral cooperation will be deepened to essentially become "joint development" of next gen fighter, in which one report called it a 'de facto change of policy" from the previous decision to partner with Lockheed Martin for the development of the F-3 fighter.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Fantastic news, this means it really is going to happen. There's no way Japan will let this slip given the threat environment.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Another news article on the same news...

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Timmymagic wrote: 15 May 2022, 15:20 Another news article on the same news...

Typhoon -> Tempest -> 'Tsunami'?

If this collaboration goes ahead I would be curious to see what level of US IP ends up in it and what implications that might have on exports.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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The Japanese are pretty good at designing indigenous kit for their aircraft. They learnt a lot build the F2 including what they did not want to repeat with their next fighter programme. If they want to they can just about manufacture everything they need without running into US IP, even more so collaborating with the TEMPEST programme.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Tempest article (behind The Telegraphs Paywall..):

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by motiv »

Quick question (possibly longer answers!)

When are we expecting some form of movement on Tempest, such as design sign off or prototype release.

Basically, do we know of the timeline?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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motiv wrote: 31 May 2022, 10:08 Basically, do we know of the timeline?
2024-25 is when the decision to release funds for BAE and its partners to proceed to the flying prototype phase is expected, then the better part of a decade of flight trials, refining & testing the prototypes, ready for full scale production, for entry into RAF service from 2035 onwards.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Yes - I read Oct 2024 is penciled in as main gate.
The Rolls / IHI engine demonstrator is aiming for 2026, so that fits with having a flying prototype by the end of the decade.
A couple of years production gap between Typhoon and Tempest in the early 2030s could almost be convenient, to allow breathing space for a rip out and replace at Wharton, and they'll also have ECR2 upgrades, maybe Mosquito to keep them ticking

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SD67 wrote: 31 May 2022, 18:14 I read Oct 2024 is penciled in as main gate
Those who don't believe the next GE to be early, will find that May 2, 2024 may regardless intervene as to the Gvmnt staying the course
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
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