The war in Ukraine

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Lord Jim
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by Lord Jim »

The Slava class Missile Cruisers are supposed to have some of the best air defence and close in defence the Russians have. They are basically conventional Kirovs. Moskva was the Black Sea Fleets Flagship as well so I cannot see the morale of that service getting any better soon, and they will probably stay away from the parts of coast Ukraine still controls out west of Crimea.
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Cooper
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Re: The war in Ukraine

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Jdam wrote: 14 Apr 2022, 22:28 So has the cause be determined yet?
They're Russian, so somebody probably stole the plug.
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Jdam
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Re: The war in Ukraine

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Lord Jim wrote: 15 Apr 2022, 01:21 The Slava class Missile Cruisers are supposed to have some of the best air defence and close in defence the Russians have.
Maybe they are only as good as the people using it.
Cooper wrote: 15 Apr 2022, 09:41
They're Russian, so somebody probably stole the plug.
:shh:

Surprised photos have not been leaked yet, how long did it take before we seen footage of our F-35 in the drink, we even got footage of the strike on the other Russian ships earlier.

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Tempest414
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Re: The war in Ukraine

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Remember that Russian troops / crews are not allowed to carry Phones when deployed

Jdam
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Re: The war in Ukraine

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442 dead :shock: somehow I doubt "Onboard fire" would cause those sort of casualties.

Lord Jim
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Re: The war in Ukraine

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This possible points more to being hit by something rather than a fire as Russia has stated. Also could it have been a surface ship version of the disaster that occurred on the Kursk SSGN? The ship and some of its weaponry is old and it had only received a very modest refit.

Jdam
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by Jdam »

If the ship was fully armed it wouldn't take much for an anti ship missile to hit something explosive :shock:

TheLoneRanger
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by TheLoneRanger »

There are some reports flying around that this may also be a broken arrow type situation with 2 nuclear weapons on the ship have gone down with the ship.

If so - they will need to be recovered soon for both security and ecological reasons.

bobp
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Re: The war in Ukraine

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TheLoneRanger wrote: 17 Apr 2022, 09:51 There are some reports flying around that this may also be a broken arrow type situation with 2 nuclear weapons on the ship have gone down with the ship.

If so - they will need to be recovered soon for both security and ecological reasons.
True hopefully these weapons if they exist were not armed. Bearing in mind the Ruskis were towing the ship back to port they must have been aware of any risks.

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Tempest414
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Re: The war in Ukraine

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Which ever way this ship was lost it another indication of how poor the Russian military is in terms of training it was hit by a missile in which case the crew failed to counter it or the crews drills were so bad they allow a explosion to take place in the ships magazine as this would be the only place that could have destroyed the ship and killed so many

So once again I can only come back to the conclusion that the current Russian military has suffered a Stalin type purge

Jdam
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by Jdam »

What sort of Nukes would the ship have been carrying (Depth charges maybe?)
Tempest414 wrote: 17 Apr 2022, 11:41 So once again I can only come back to the conclusion that the current Russian military has suffered a Stalin type purge
Well Navy lookout did posted this on twitter
Russian FSB agents have reportedly arrested the commander of the Black Sea Fleet, Vice Admiral Igor Ossipov in connection with the “accidental fire” that sunk the cruiser RFS Moskva
If true you may be very uncomfortably closer to the truth than you think.

Just madness the whole think.

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Re: The war in Ukraine

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Image

Lord Jim
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Re: The war in Ukraine

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What are the latest details on the number of survivors? I hope it is more than the 58 mentioned above.
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Tempest414
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Re: The war in Ukraine

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silabario wrote: 17 Apr 2022, 23:49 Image
Well that looks like a missile strike to me

Phil Sayers
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Re: The war in Ukraine

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Lord Jim wrote: 18 Apr 2022, 06:57 What are the latest details on the number of survivors? I hope it is more than the 58 mentioned above.
Formerly independent Russian newspaper (now operating in European exile) Novaya Gazeta Europe have spoken to the mother of someone serving on the Moskva. According to her son forty died, several are missing and there are many serious injuries amongst the survivors.

Looking at the damage those numbers seem plausible to me as all the life rafts on the port side have been deployed and the ship evidently stayed afloat for quite some time after being struck so you would imagine most were able to evacuate.

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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by S M H »

Regarding the poor damage control fire fighting on the Moskva lhad a guided tour of Udloy in the 1990s when The Russian navy was more opern. It was like going round a country class equipment wise. Most of the equipment was incrementally improved 1960s tech. The cabling was poor plastered iwith layers of paint. I noticed that cable through bulk heads was just passing through box welded to the bulk head. Sealed with putty. Equipment was in a bad state of maintance. The ops room reminded me of HMS Plymouth with perplex plotting upright screen and vintage equipment. There was various parts were equipment was de wired. The cables just tied back to the cable trays. I saw that were we had breathing sets. And escape hoods. There was masks with lengths of white fiber ribbed hose on hooks with very few breathing sets avadable. The fire hoses were canvas like what the navy had in the 1950s. The crew of Moskva would be doing fire fighting and damage control with very poor equipment. It now poses possible major problems for a apposed landing for the Russian Navy.
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Phil Sayers
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Re: The war in Ukraine

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Multiple reports (including from Zelensky himself) that Russia has commenced a full-scale offensive in the Donbass and battle is raging across the entire frontline. Interesting that they did not / could not wait for Mariupol to completely fall. If Russia cannot succeed with this much reduced objective I think they are basically finished as a Great Power for a generation or more.

Lord Jim
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by Lord Jim »

Massed artillery can paper over a lot of gaps in ability, especially if they do not care where they hit. They are almost reverting to the tried and tested tactic form decades ago.

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Re: The war in Ukraine

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Tempest414
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Re: The war in Ukraine

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Phil Sayers wrote: 18 Apr 2022, 21:33 Multiple reports (including from Zelensky himself) that Russia has commenced a full-scale offensive in the Donbass and battle is raging across the entire frontline. Interesting that they did not / could not wait for Mariupol to completely fall. If Russia cannot succeed with this much reduced objective I think they are basically finished as a Great Power for a generation or more.
The Russian army command is under pressure to deliver to save Putin's neck and there own this is not a good place to start a offensive from and will end badly for them

RunningStrong
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Re: The war in Ukraine

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Describing Stormer as "the world's most advanced" air defence missile and "effectively like a no fly zone".

https://www.chartwellspeakers.com/speak ... an-prinns/

Where do they find these people.for Radio 5?

Lord Jim
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by Lord Jim »

We haven't got that many Stormer HMV carriers available, so we must be stripping the Army of any vehicles held in storage so the Regiment using them in the British Army will lose any reserves or attrition replacements, possibly. May be someone has said that with Sky Sabre entering service we do not need as many Stormer HVM carriers instead relying more on the Pedestal and shoulder launched options.

It might be generating the Government some good PR and the weapons are being put to good use by the Ukrainians, but I would like some confirmation that our stocks are going to be replenished as soon as possible with either the same kit or newer weapon types. I mean one of the corner stones of last years IR was the increase in the Army's readiness and an increase in the amount of consumables held in store. Having seen the unavoidably high consumption of munitions in the war in Ukraine, if the Government is serious about defence it needs to not only replenish our stocks of munitions ASAP but also increase the levels held.
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TheLoneRanger
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by TheLoneRanger »

Given Germanys behaviour - i think the UK needs to rethink its security relationship with Germany - in particular we need to think about stopping purchases from germany in the future

Germany does not seem to want Ukraine to win based on her actions.

Maybe we can cancel the Challenger 3 programme and do it all in the UK ? esp given how they decide on where or how their systems can or cannot be exported or used !!!


Lord Jim
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by Lord Jim »

Germany has already gone far further than many experts thought it would. Though Germany itself may not be willing to pass on heavy weapons, it is will to allow other parties to pas on their German manufactured or previously owned equipment such as Leopard 1 MBTs. With modern Sabot rounds this would still be an effective AFV even if it would have difficulty dealing with Russia top tier MBTs head to head. Against other Russian AFVs, especially using modern rounds like those manufactured in Israel it would be very effective.

Maybe the best solution is for the eastern members of NATO to pass on what Soviet era equipment they still retain with the US and Germany willing to replace this with more modern new or second hand platforms as a reduced cost. Some countries even still manufacture such equipment like Serbia and Egypt for example and ammunition for the weapons Ukraine already has is plentiful on the world market. Egypt makes some very effective 122mm Rockets for its MLRS systems with modern warheads. I am sure the US could source these and pass them on to Ukraine.

AS for the bigger picture, if Russia consolidates on gaining a land bridge to the Crimea it ay call a halt and be more willing to agree a peace. Whether Ukraine could accept this is up for debate, but I think this will also depend on what its supporter also believe is best and whether they would be still willing to supply Ukraine if they continued the war. To reclaim territory, Ukraine will need significant amounts of new and replacement heavy weaponry.

Phil Sayers
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by Phil Sayers »

More artillery on the way and in serious quantity (which presumably could be continued for a long, long time if needs be):



Two Russian helicopters were shot down in quick succession by MANPADS today with a warplane (probably SU-34, both crew ejected) also being downed. This video shows the second of the helicopters being struck with the wreckage of the first also visible (right hand side):



A couple of very curious, serious fires have broken out today in Russia......




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